Cautionary Tales

[madelinemasoch]

I think the content guidelines, while largely reasonable, can easily lead to a narrowing of the horizons of what we're able to publish here. I'm somewhat interested in writing cautionary tales where someone is clearly morally reprehensible in a tragic situation in order to criticize society. It seems the object Lit wants you to point towards as a site must be a titilating one, but this wouldn't be. Apparently, you can't even have sexuality be adjacent to blatant emotional suffering without that somehow being "sexualized violence." A story with actual sexualized violence wouldn't make the cut, even though the narrative point is largely benevolent. Basically what I'm saying is, if I actually did the things my detractors have accused me of, it wouldn't pass muster for the guidelines.

However, have you read any cautionary tales on here of the type I describe? What were they able to get away with? I'd like not to be admonished for "trying to skirt the site rules" or what have you. Only looking for examples...

 

[EmilyMiller]

I’ve written people being raped. But making it obviously disgusting and not dwelling on the details (if you still get off on that, then see a doctor). But this is a prelude to something awful happening to the perpetrator. And - perhaps tellingly - I’ve only done this in the Sci-Fi / Fantasy category. You already have to willingly suspend disbelief. And sometimes the “victims” only appear to be hurt, and are mostly furthering some plan.

Realistic rape? I’m never publishing that, even if the site allowed me to. Rape as titillation? That’s just sick..

Em

 

[madelinemasoch]

I’ve written people being raped. But making it obviously disgusting and not dwelling on the details (if you still get off on that, then see a doctor). But this is a prelude to something awful happening to the perpetrator. And - perhaps tellingly - I’ve only done this in the Sci-Fi / Fantasy category. You already have to willingly suspend disbelief. And sometimes the “victims” only appear to be hurt, and are mostly furthering some plan.

Realistic rape? I’m never publishing that, even if the site allowed me to. Rape as titillation? That’s just sick..

Em

Oh it's not rape I have in mind here, but murder.

 

[Mastered_again]

Realistic rape? I’m never publishing that, even if the site allowed me to. Rape as titillation? That’s just sick..

Em

Yeah, what she said

 

[EmilyMiller]

Oh it's not rape I have in mind here, but murder.

Murder is allowed - just not sexualized murder / snuff. I assume graphic descriptions might attract some attention as well.

Em

 

[Emilymcplugger]

Murder is allowed - just not sexualized murder / snuff. I assume graphic descriptions might attract some attention as well.

Em

Yeah, I had the villain in ALL THE DEVILS ARE HERE get stabbed in prison and the protagonist not giving a fuck.

Shit.

Er…spoiler alert.

 

[MrPixel]

I've published a couple of cautionary/moralistic stories, and written other tales removed, rejected (implied sexual violence), or not published. I have read one here where the antagonist experienced a particular sexual violence as revenge, then was setup for a second at the cliffhanger ending.

I'll say outright that I get full moralist when it comes to I/T. I have IRL experience in that area, being close to three very damaged adults who were victims of both forced and "romantic" incest.

 

[MajorRewrite]

I'm somewhat interested in writing cautionary tales where someone is clearly morally reprehensible in a tragic situation in order to criticize society.

Most of the revenge/BTB stories in the Loving Wives category are moralizing about the evils of extramarital sex (in a category that’s supposed to be about about extramarital sex). The stories have included beating, murder, financial destruction and just about any other kind of punishment you could dream of (sending the wife to be a slave in a Mexican whorehouse is rare but has been written).

Their morality tales aren’t erotic but some readers love that stuff anyway.

 

[madelinemasoch]

Most of the revenge/BTB stories in the Loving Wives category are moralizing about the evils of extramarital sex (in a category that’s supposed to be about about extramarital sex). The stories have included beating, murder, financial destruction and just about any other kind of punishment you could dream of (sending the wife to be a slave in a Mexican whorehouse is rare but has been written).

Their morality tales aren’t erotic but some readers love that stuff anyway.

I'm thinking more along the lines of writing something like that, but the point is the husband taking revenge is in the wrong. That's how I would handle a story like that.

Imagine this: a mentally ill, divorced, ex-military man... plus an impoverished, dejected, cast aside prostitute led astray by life. Recipe for disaster, because it already was one before they met. They were put in these positions by the same society that will culminate in one another's utter destruction.

 

[AchtungNight]

My most moral tales are the Passion series, Hunters & Prey, and the Counseling series. The Rendezvous series, A Request for Help, Inside Out, Debrief & Ruleskirter also. I’ve dealt with war, crime, and intolerance in various forms. It’s never easy but always gets attention. I don’t intend to stop addressing such issues as long as they remain concerns of the world.

 

[madelinemasoch]

I'm thinking more along the lines of writing something like that, but the point is the husband taking revenge is in the wrong. That's how I would handle a story like that.

Actually part of the problem I'm trying to draw attention to here is that I don't think the site would even allow me to display the psychology of someone like that, even though the narrative purpose is to portray the utter moral bankruptcy and living failure of a man like that.

 

[Jackie.Hikaru]

Actually part of the problem I'm trying to draw attention to here is that I don't think the site would even allow me to display the psychology of someone like that, even though the narrative purpose is to portray the utter moral bankruptcy and living failure of a man like that.

I think you could. Honestly.

 

[ronde]

I think the content guidelines, while largely reasonable, can easily lead to a narrowing of the horizons of what we're able to publish here. I'm somewhat interested in writing cautionary tales where someone is clearly morally reprehensible in a tragic situation in order to criticize society. It seems the object Lit wants you to point towards as a site must be a titilating one, but this wouldn't be. Apparently, you can't even have sexuality be adjacent to blatant emotional suffering without that somehow being "sexualized violence." A story with actual sexualized violence wouldn't make the cut, even though the narrative point is largely benevolent. Basically what I'm saying is, if I actually did the things my detractors have accused me of, it wouldn't pass muster for the guidelines.

However, have you read any cautionary tales on here of the type I describe? What were they able to get away with? I'd like not to be admonished for "trying to skirt the site rules" or what have you. Only looking for examples...

Oh it's not rape I have in mind here, but murder.

I have many stories where murder is a central part in the plot, and often that murder is a reflection of society of the time period. Some were also a criticism of society at the same time period and have implications of morality triumphing over evil. None were rejected before publication.

I think the important thing to avoid is any glamorization or sexualization of any act of violence such as murder, torture, or rape.

I'm thinking more along the lines of writing something like that, but the point is the husband taking revenge is in the wrong. That's how I would handle a story like that.

Imagine this: a mentally ill, divorced, ex-military man... plus an impoverished, dejected, cast aside prostitute led astray by life. Recipe for disaster, because it already was one before they met. They were put in these positions by the same society that will culminate in one another's utter destruction.

I think you could write this and it would be accepted for publication as long as you're careful to write the actions of the characters as actions caused by their situations. Don't write a description of those actions that describe the characters obtaining sexual or any other kind of pleasure from an act of non-consent or violence.

It might not hurt to leave Laurel a note explaining how you wrote the story.

 

[AchtungNight]

Actually part of the problem I'm trying to draw attention to here is that I don't think the site would even allow me to display the psychology of someone like that, even though the narrative purpose is to portray the utter moral bankruptcy and living failure of a man like that.

I got away with Jessica Feshbach and her minions in Counseling, also the Scorpion Aziz in Debrief, and Lord Jim Kurtz in a couple other stories. Sociopath villains all, not sexualized. Maybe the latter was the deciding factor. Their main concern is opposing the heroes, not being sexual. We’ll see if I deal with a sexy villain down the road.

 

[HordHolm]

Actually part of the problem I'm trying to draw attention to here is that I don't think the site would even allow me to display the psychology of someone like that, even though the narrative purpose is to portray the utter moral bankruptcy and living failure of a man like that.

I don't see why the site would deny you the space to portray a revenge-minded husband on a BTB mission as morally bankrupt and a living failure. However.... I would question the angle of making him mentally-ill: wouldn't this a) give a simple excuse for his behaviour and, b) be a bit unfair on mentally ill people in general who are, by and large, a danger to themselves rather than others? Wouldn't it be better for teh morally bankrupt man to be outwardly/initially respectable, a good guy, someone you could imagine having a beer and a chat with in the bar? That way his subsequent descent would highlight the fact that the men who do this kind of thing really are the kind of guys we see in social situations as our good neighbours, or good sons, brothers, colleagues, etc.

 

[AchtungNight]

Yeah, the bit below is the key to writing complex villains- they think they’re the good guy and they’re always right. Skilled at deluding themselves above all else.

I don't see why the site would deny you the space to portray a revenge-minded husband on a BTB mission as morally bankrupt and a living failure. However.... I would question the angle of making him mentally-ill: wouldn't this a) give a simple excuse for his behaviour and, b) be a bit unfair on mentally ill people in general who are, by and large, a danger to themselves rather than others? Wouldn't it be better for teh morally bankrupt man to be outwardly/initially respectable, a good guy, someone you could imagine having a beer and a chat with in the bar? That way his subsequent descent would highlight the fact that the men who do this kind of thing really are the kind of guys we see in social situations as our good neighbours, or good sons, brothers, colleagues, etc.

I’ve gotten away with a few confused sympathetic sociopaths also- but ultimately they all get what they deserve. Paparazzo Gary Parker is constantly the victim of bad karma. Kirk Cameron will actually need to transform his mind to become a better person, he’ll do that offscreen hopefully if I ever feature him again. Tom in Passion 5 had the motivation at the end of the story but of course his marriage was eventually doomed anyway. Maybe the closest I’ve gotten to a redemption sex arc would be Zeck in Passion 4, Alicia from Rendezvous, or Busy in Busy on the Creek and they were more selfish characters than evil people. If I have to go full on evil character here, I know it will have to be an Original Character. And every time I’ve concentrated on one of my original villains they’ve turned into anti heroes. Not what I want them to be. Or what you’re talking about.

 

[AG31]

I think the content guidelines, while largely reasonable, can easily lead to a narrowing of the horizons of what we're able to publish here. I'm somewhat interested in writing cautionary tales where someone is clearly morally reprehensible in a tragic situation in order to criticize society. It seems the object Lit wants you to point towards as a site must be a titilating one, but this wouldn't be. Apparently, you can't even have sexuality be adjacent to blatant emotional suffering without that somehow being "sexualized violence." A story with actual sexualized violence wouldn't make the cut, even though the narrative point is largely benevolent. Basically what I'm saying is, if I actually did the things my detractors have accused me of, it wouldn't pass muster for the guidelines.

However, have you read any cautionary tales on here of the type I describe? What were they able to get away with? I'd like not to be admonished for "trying to skirt the site rules" or what have you. Only looking for examples...

A story about a woman who intentionally walked through empty parks at night seeking out rape was posted somewhere here recently. It was mentioned in the forum and a lot of people praised it for being frankly about rape (pushing the boundaries). If I can figure out how to find it I'll post a link. But I expect it passed muster because the MC enjoyed the rape.

 

[AG31]

I'll say outright that I get full moralist when it comes to I/T. I have IRL experience in that area, being close to three very damaged adults who were victims of both forced and "romantic" incest.

Sorry, but what does "I/T" mean? Urban dictionary didn't help me.

 

[HordHolm]

Sorry, but what does "I/T" mean? Urban dictionary didn't help me.

Incest and Taboo - one of the categories on Lit.

 

[lovecraft68]

I think the content guidelines, while largely reasonable, can easily lead to a narrowing of the horizons of what we're able to publish here. I'm somewhat interested in writing cautionary tales where someone is clearly morally reprehensible in a tragic situation in order to criticize society. It seems the object Lit wants you to point towards as a site must be a titilating one, but this wouldn't be. Apparently, you can't even have sexuality be adjacent to blatant emotional suffering without that somehow being "sexualized violence." A story with actual sexualized violence wouldn't make the cut, even though the narrative point is largely benevolent. Basically what I'm saying is, if I actually did the things my detractors have accused me of, it wouldn't pass muster for the guidelines.

However, have you read any cautionary tales on here of the type I describe? What were they able to get away with? I'd like not to be admonished for "trying to skirt the site rules" or what have you. Only looking for examples...

Regardless of plot, put it in loving wives, there is no level of violence that will get you banned there.

 

[Jackie.Hikaru]

Sorry, but what does "I/T" mean? Urban dictionary didn't help me.

If I remember correctly, we have a "Lit Dictionary" on here somewhere no? Might be worth bookmarking

 

[madelinemasoch]

I don't see why the site would deny you the space to portray a revenge-minded husband on a BTB mission as morally bankrupt and a living failure. However.... I would question the angle of making him mentally-ill: wouldn't this a) give a simple excuse for his behaviour and, b) be a bit unfair on mentally ill people in general who are, by and large, a danger to themselves rather than others? Wouldn't it be better for teh morally bankrupt man to be outwardly/initially respectable, a good guy, someone you could imagine having a beer and a chat with in the bar? That way his subsequent descent would highlight the fact that the men who do this kind of thing really are the kind of guys we see in social situations as our good neighbours, or good sons, brothers, colleagues, etc.

Actually you're right. The BTB was just something I noticed and threw out there, not the veteran and prostitute story idea I have.

 

[EmilyMiller]

A story about a woman who intentionally walked through empty parks at night seeking out rape was posted somewhere here recently. It was mentioned in the forum and a lot of people praised it for being frankly about rape (pushing the boundaries). If I can figure out how to find it I'll post a link. But I expect it passed muster because the MC enjoyed the rape.

If they enjoyed it, it’s not rape. How hard is this?

Rape is not enjoyable in any Universe.

Em

 

[AwkwardlySet]

If they enjoyed it, it’s not rape. How hard is this?

Rape is not enjoyable in any Universe.

Em

I don't think you are correct in this. Consent is what matters in the case of rape, nothing else. Regardless if the victim felt any pleasure or not, if it is done without consent, it's rape. I mean, I don't doubt there are some people who would feel some kind of arousal even during actual rape, but I don't see that fact as relevant. Lit rule about victim having to feel some pleasure for the rape story to be allowed is ridiculous, to say the least.

 

[Bamagan]

I think the content guidelines, while largely reasonable, can easily lead to a narrowing of the horizons of what we're able to publish here. I'm somewhat interested in writing cautionary tales where someone is clearly morally reprehensible in a tragic situation in order to criticize society. It seems the object Lit wants you to point towards as a site must be a titilating one, but this wouldn't be. Apparently, you can't even have sexuality be adjacent to blatant emotional suffering without that somehow being "sexualized violence." A story with actual sexualized violence wouldn't make the cut, even though the narrative point is largely benevolent. Basically what I'm saying is, if I actually did the things my detractors have accused me of, it wouldn't pass muster for the guidelines.

However, have you read any cautionary tales on here of the type I describe? What were they able to get away with? I'd like not to be admonished for "trying to skirt the site rules" or what have you. Only looking for examples...

Given that this is an erotica site, it's kind of to be expected that they prefer submissions to be erotic. Taking sex and making in unerotic might serve a purpose in the pursuit of art or social criticism, but they have to wonder, why would anyone want to publish that kind of story here? Are erotica readers their target audience, and if so, why? Is the author's social criticism just disapproval of some or all of the other content available on the site, and they think the people who enjoy it need to be tricked into reading the author's critique of their kinks? I'm not saying that's what you're trying to do, but it might be what you need to convince the site you're not trying to do.
And since it looks like this thread is going to veer back to 'what is rape? baby don't hurt me' I should probably leave now.