"depth of storytelling"

GrushaVashnadze

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I recently received this comment here on Lit, on my novella Young Cunts: "This... has a lot more depth of storytelling than most of what you read on this site." A lovely comment to receive, of course - but it set me thinking: What is "depth of storytelling"? Is it something smut writers can and/or should aim for?

One superb writer of erotica once joked to me about writing “porn that makes you think” – in relation, naturally, to a particularly thought-provoking story they had written – but even they seemed a bit embarrassed to pursue the possibility, retreating into: “It’s really gratifying to hear that my story made you think and ponder the possibilities beyond the story. Ooh, that was a bit deep. Think I’d better wash my mind out with porn ;)

I suggest that smut (or literary porn, or erotica, or whatever you may like to call it) is, at least potentially, an art form, and so we should be confident of being able to discuss it in those terms. I would like to suggest an axiom to start us off: Art is about something. It has to be, or else it could not “make us think”. Specifically, I suggest, art is about us, and it is about our relationships, to ourselves, to each other, and to the world around us and beyond us. It expresses what it is trying to say not through analytical text – for that would make it merely an academic essay – but through metaphor and gesture: physical, visual, auditory and verbal.

In smut and porn, those metaphors and gestures are sexual ones. But the stories can be about more profound things. In the same way that paintings are not about paint, and operas and musical theatre are not about singing and dancing, and ballet is not about entrechats, arabesques penchés, and petits battements serrés, smut is not always about sex. “Bukkake”, “tentacles”, “BDSM” or “cumfarting” may be the building blocks of a smut story, and in that way they may define the style of the story. But a sex story need not be, in the final analysis, about the sexual acts. Rather, it can use those building blocks as vehicles, as tools with which to carry out a higher purpose: to make us think (even as we flush our soiled tissue down the U-bend).

Some of my personal favorite examples of this, in the worlds of smut and porn, include:
- Radley Metzger's movie masterpiece The Opening of Misty Beethoven - all about class, identity, transformation and the possibility/impossibility thereof: Pygmalion with fucking.
- Paul Thomas's porn flick Throat: A Cautionary Tale - which explores issues of compulsion, addiction, exploitation.
- Jaymal’s story Lusts of the Flesh – a story of a young man caught between his sincere desire to live up to the moral demands of his religion and the irresistible demands of the flesh.
- CurvyGalore’s The Tribulations of Tobias - deceptively polite, yet the conclusion is quite startling and shocking. (Lest you think that only very rude stories make it onto my list...)

A couple of my modest offerings:
- The Cursed Cunt - a story about redemption: the world thrown off kilter by one man’s tragic flaw, and the struggle of that same world to right itself, even through death (and fucking).
- Alison Goes to London - a futuristic satire, but like all satires it is about us. Imagine a world where, thanks to the “New Enlightenment”, pleasure is everything, filthy sex is the pinnacle of social respectability, and therefore love is held to be worthless. Is this utopian or dystopian? What would happen to young people growing up in a world like this? Alison is an enthusiastic disciple of the cult of Pleasure – until she encounters love for the first time and her world is turned upside-down. NaughtyAnnie says of it: “Your mix of uninhibited filth and thought-provoking social comment is unique!” - which kind of echoes the comment with which I began this post.

So, back to my opening questions: Is "depth of storytelling" something you aim for? How do you incorporate it into your smut? Or, perhaps more appropriately, how do you incorporate smut into a profoundly felt, thought provoking story? I'd love to hear your thoughts.
 
I think that sometimes the "depth" inserts itself. I'm working on a story that was intended to be a simple stroker - two women talking on the phone and masturbating as they ogle the gardener - but as I was writing I realised I wanted to make it a journey, a triptych, where the narrator is slowly drawn out of her shell over the course of three parallel experiences.

"Fairytale of New York" was supposed to be a simple fairytale, but it became an exploration of introversion and how it affects relationships. "Love At First Sight" was supposed to be a shorty about someone spying on their neighbour, but it became tale of creepy obsession. Both have received very favourable comments.

On the other hand, sometimes it's fun just to write porn. Or to write an adventure story that features sex. Life can be depressing enough at times: I read and write to escape from all the heavy stuff.
 
I think most of mine fall at the deeper, more literary side of smut. As for how I do it and why, well, like I do all of it, instinctively. I don’t sit down and plan on what themes I’ll cover. I write a story and then go oo, so this is what I had to say.
 
You are forcing me to think way harder about what I do than I'd ever intended.

To me, depth of storytelling is going deeper into the past of the charaatcer, to understand them on some measure before the current story begins. The same with the setting. Like the way Tolkien introduced us to hobbits before the first dwarf ever showed up.
If that is my definition, then no, I don't.
A deep backstory of the charcter or the history of the location is too much for erotica, in my opinion.

I want the reader to know the now of the charcter. Where they are, how they are feeling at that moment. She's leaving work having had a shitty day, and now all she wants is to kick back with a little merlot and some Barry White. Pretty much instantly the reader should at least empathize with the charcter, and that's enough. I'd rather have the reader relate to the character than know them intimately. I'll add little factiods about their past if it becomes relevant to the story.
 
But the stories can be about more profound things. In the same way that paintings are not about paint, and operas and musical theatre are not about singing and dancing, and ballet is not about entrechats, arabesques penchés, and petits battements serrés, smut is not always about sex.

But a sex story need not be, in the final analysis, about the sexual acts. Rather, it can use those building blocks as vehicles, as tools with which to carry out a higher purpose: to make us think

I agree. Strongly. But I think there's one nuance here you didn't spell out.

To use your metaphor: the best paintings could only be painted. If you made Stary Night in photoshop, it would be more detailed, but it would not be more moving. In the same way, you could tell the story of Hamilton without any music, but it wouldn't be a Broadway darling. It wouldn't suggest at the on-the-surface bizarre, but one you think about it oh-so-relevant-to-our-time, parallels between the America of that time and hip-hop culture of today. It would have less depth.

Sometimes I read erotica that is just smut, and it is hot, but unfulfilling. Something sexy catches my mind and I try to grab onto it and realize that there is nothing to grab onto there, nothing to think about beyond the surface level sexy thing. It has no depth.

At the same time, I will often read stories that claim to be erotica but really they are a chaste narrative with some smutty scenes thrown in. If you removed the smut, replaced it with a fade-to-black, the story would still work just fine. To me, this is building your art from the wrong medium. It might have depth, but not the kind I came here to dive into.

For me, the best erotica has something to sink your teeth into, something to make you think, and that something is tied up in the sexiness itself.
 
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Is it something smut writers can and/or should aim for?
Some will, some won't. There is no "should/shouldn't." It seems clear you personally appreciate it, as a reader. Others don't.

Speaking for myself, I don't aim for "big themes" or "world shaking stakes" or even "character growth" in my smut stories. But I do go for "depth of storytelling" in the sense of hopefully creating a scene the reader can feel and imagine well, and relate to as a human, and get turned on by because they empathize in real life with the sexual energy the characters are experiencing in black-and-white (or whatever colors a given reader has chosen for their screen style).

Sex without context is not a thrill, to me, and my contexts should have emotional content, and my situations should have a visceral thrill. Storytelling is the only way to provide those.
 
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At the same time, I will often read stories that claim to be erotica but really they are a chaste narrative with some smutty scenes thrown in. If you removed the smut, replaced it with a fade-to-black, the story would still work just fine. To me, this is building your art from the wrong medium. It might have depth, but not the kind I came here to dive into.
I intentionally try (key word: "try") to make my stories "deeper" than just smut. And I'm keenly aware of this point in particular. I don't want to write a detective story that has gratuitious sex in it just to fit it into this site. So I try to find things that are stories in themselves, but that the sex is an integral part of the plot, the reason behind everything that happens even if what happens is not specifically sexual. And even when it is all about sex, it is about the character's attitudes toward it, the conflicts their desires have with their "normal" life.

For instance, my Aces series has a scene were an attempted blowjob brings an internal conflict in the MC to a head, one that had been brewing from the start. Yes, it is a conflict about his sex life, but it is really about his deeper values. Nothing else could have triggered that in the same way. The effect it has on him and the people around him and how he tries to resolve it drive the later chapters.
 
I think writers of erotica are often at cross purposes with their general readers, especially on a site like this one. Many writers take its name seriously, with just as much emphasis on the Lit (literary) part of it as the erotica part. Many (most?) readers only care about the latter part. So some writers are trying their best to create stories that have literary merit (believable characters, clever dialogue, meaningful incidents, etc.) as well as the hot sex scenes, while the reader is mainly (only?) concerned with the hot sex scenes. If it were a sports story site you would have the same thing: people would read only stories about sports they liked, and the writer better give lots of detailed info (minutia?) about the games and not “waste” a lot of time on background stuff that might make it more “literary.” It’s all about expectation. The challenge is not to fall into the trap, but to maintain your writerly principles, and deliver stories that satisfy those principles for yourself. Reread a story you wrote a year ago and, yeah, one part might really suck to you now, some of the dialogue seems weak, but when you’re done, if you’re still thrilled with having written it, the point of it all is still obvious and meaningful to you, that’s a great feeling.
 
I agree that erotica can be art, can be one of many tools with which to explore deeper questions, human nature, all of those lovely things.

That is not, however, what I do. I get that out of my system with writing that I don't post here. The erotica, to me, is about the sex. I tip my hat to all you noble artists, but I write porn, plain and simple.
 
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Many writers take its name seriously, with just as much emphasis on the Lit (literary) part of it as the erotica part. Many (most?) readers only care about the latter part. So some writers are trying their best to create stories that have literary merit (believable characters, clever dialogue, meaningful incidents, etc.) as well as the hot sex scenes, while the reader is mainly (only?) concerned with the hot sex scenes.
SOL has a scale of sexual content as a guide for their readers. It's useful if you are just looking for a stroker, or if you want something more literary, or something in between.

It's useful to be able to see, before you start reading, what you are getting into.
 
I have put emotional attachment into my stories from the beginning. It turns me on in real life, friendships growing stronger and the friends having sex. I like viewing it in media too.

My first erotic stories definitely included emotions in a big way. “Fear, Lust, and Vanity” has a woman ask her nude model partners if they were as turned on by the shoot as she was. The answer is affirmative, so they hook up. “Rendezvous” has an actress get turned on by fantasizing about her co-stars, seduce one of them, and pursue two more, then when the first paramour discovers the polyamory and gets riled up, the protagonist and her other two paramours draw the resentful one into it and change her life positively. The story is about her overcoming her anger and resentment to open her mind. “Compensation”, my first big MF story here, features a guy learning the woman he thought was just his good friend and work partner is as into him as he is into her. Sex happens when their emotions progress.

It happens in a similar way with every story I write. From a hook-up addict relieved and enthused by a rescue from sexual assault (Ruleskirter) to a young girl wanting to expand her sex life (Passion series) to a lonely paladin & ascendant succubus hooking up (Pathfinder: Union of the Righteous) to a sociopath trying to victimize others (Courtney Crowe), I have dealt with many more emotions over the years. More to come if I can find the necessary ideas, emotional peace, and time.
 
More than anything, I try to go for something that's new. That hasn't really been explored.

I started off writing basic premises 10 years ago (long time) and trust me, that gets boring.

When writing, in general, or erotica, if you're bored then the story will be boring.

Always excite yourself first.
 
I recently received this comment here on Lit, on my novella Young Cunts: "This... has a lot more depth of storytelling than most of what you read on this site." A lovely comment to receive, of course - but it set me thinking: What is "depth of storytelling"? Is it something smut writers can and/or should aim for?

Yes, if they want to. But no author should feel obligated to.

The wonderful thing about this site is how big and diverse the readership is. Longer stories with depth and character development can do extremely well. So can short stories without much depth.

I think your question is best addressed to the author who is thinking about writing something with greater than average depth and wondering if it will be well received on what some regard as a "smut" site. And the answer is yes, there is a big potential readership for a story with more depth. So have at it, IF you want to.
 
Many (most?) readers only care about the latter part. So some writers are trying their best to create stories that have literary merit (believable characters, clever dialogue, meaningful incidents, etc.) as well as the hot sex scenes, while the reader is mainly (only?) concerned with the hot sex scenes.
I'm used to appealing to the minority. Narrowcasting is one of the great unsung benefits of the worldwide internet. But I do try to integrate the two goals, to provide smut for the smut fan and something more for those who appreciate that as well. But I'm happy if the former audience doesn't take to my work in numbers. At least here.

Here, I'm practicing, among other things. It's one of the better outlets for writing I've found for any kind of writing in terms of readership numbers and fast feedback. The quality of feedback isn't high, but not much worse than other places. It's a great place to hone skills, which, hopefully, do not get so bogged down in specifics of the genre that they aren't broadly apllicable.

SOL has a scale of sexual content as a guide for their readers
SOL?
 
When writing, in general, or erotica, if you're bored then the story will be boring.
I have a weird kind of writer's block lately. I've gotten bored with writing sex scenes.

But I take that as needing to up my game, not in the sex scenes specifically, but in making them more meaningful.And less of a "sure thing." I need to put some suspense into it, so nobody is sure it is going to happen, or at least not sure how it will happen.
 
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