"depth of storytelling"

[KeithD]

Er... Goodness. What I actually said was:

I quoted in my post you quote what you actually posted--the quote marks, you know.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Especially considering this entire paragraph:

I suggest that smut (or literary porn, or erotica, or whatever you may like to call it) is, at least potentially, an art form, and so we should be confident of being able to discuss it in those terms. I would like to suggest an axiom to start us off: Art is about something. It has to be, or else it could not “make us think”. Specifically, I suggest, art is about us, and it is about our relationships, to ourselves, to each other, and to the world around us and beyond us. It expresses what it is trying to say not through analytical text – for that would make it merely an academic essay – but through metaphor and gesture: physical, visual, auditory and verbal.

In which you present a point of view which specifically provides a "yes" answer to your own question. So you framed it as yes-or-no and as taking one side versus the other, yourself, even while spelling out elsewhere that you just want a conversation.

No wonder people formed this impression.

Actually, the OP posed the questions, then merely offered a personal take as a starter. Also note that the paragraph that you quoted goes out of its way to not preach by purposely using the term 'suggest' three different times.

Like beauty or anything else, pedantry is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

There is plenty of that going on with some AH regulars too, and to be completely honest, it goes on my nerves to a degree.

I've pointed it out months ago and been criticized for it. Now all of a sudden there's a popular backlash against what I was chastised for pointing out in the past. So, yes I understand where you're coming from. In fact when the thread was first started I couldn't help but roll my eyes ...

"welcome to my thread. Let's talk about character development, I looooove char dev. For instance, an example is in (insert haughty voice) MY story (hyperlink) ... psst, go ahead, read it, read it now! it's awesome, I know you'll agree so make sure to 5 me and leave a glowing comment ... anyways, notice my wonderful amazing characters Snotty and Chesty and how they develop ..."

This is clearly an ad - a desperate attempt for attention. But then a day later other posters had added to the discussion and I had something valuable to contribute.

I think that the OP does indeed care about the topic and honestly does want to hear our opinions, even if couldn't help themself to drop us an infomercial at the same time.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I think that the OP does indeed care about the topic and honestly does want to hear our opinions, even if couldn't help themself to drop us an infomercial at the same time.

I reckon a bit of blatant self promotion is fine, if it's a one-liner and the story link is to something that's applicable the discussion.

If someone opens a post with a long yak about themselves and their story, though, I reckon it belongs over in the Feedback Forum, which is what that Forum's for.

 

[Djmac1031]

I think that the OP does indeed care about the topic and honestly does want to hear our opinions, even if couldn't help themself to drop us an infomercial at the same time.

I think we're all guilty of a little shameless self promotion sometimes. I don't see any real harm in it.

We're all trying to get more eyes on our stories. In the end the promos will work, or they wont.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I reckon a bit of blatant self promotion is fine, if it's a one-liner and the story link is to something that's applicable the discussion.

If someone opens a post with a long yak about themselves and their story, though, I reckon it belongs over in the Feedback Forum, which is what that Forum's for.

I'll even go one further. We have a 'what have you posted lately' thread. Go link it there and write up a 500 word back cover blurb praising the piece's virtues. Or just start a new thread announcing your new story, sing its praises and invite us to read - you know, an honest ad. I can respect that no problem. But the infomercial disguised as regular programming? Yea, will likely turn off more readers than entice.

 

[countdowntolov3]

I like reading about people fucking.

The first time I read about people fucking it was exciting because I'd never read about people fucking before. But over time, that excitement dwindled and, like a junky, I needed a bigger hit to get off.

I guess what I'm really interested in, as an author, is how to deliver that hit. There are a lot of ways I can think of:

Novelty - The first time I read about butt fucking, that was new and exciting again. Because I'd never read about a butt being fucked before. But... there are only so many ways to fuck and interesting places to do it.

Prose - Some of you are actually good at this. And when I read your sex scenes they are like poetry, or they conjure up strange and vivid images, or they describe a feeling in a new and beautiful (or wonderfully vulgar) way.

Pacing - This maybe belongs under prose. But in my mind they are different. Words can be evocative. But they can also be simple, and still be effective. Sometimes I feel like a story is winding me up, teasing me, suggesting that the big sexy climax is coming, but we're not quite there yet, and if I'm a very good girl for just a little longer just maybe-- And then. Oh, the release!

Characters - I might be jaded enough that a penis going into and out of a vagina has gotten boring. But a specific penis or a specific vagina might be a different story. There's something voyeuristic about being there when a character, who feels real, finally gets together with her crush. It's exciting, even if the sex in isolation wouldn't normally "do it" for me.

Plot - Sex on a train: sounds hot. Sex on a runaway train: sounds hotter. Sex on a runaway train with the enemy agent I need to distract: now we're talking.

To me. These are all "depth". When I add two pages of plot to what is otherwise a hedonistic rutting, I'm trying to make that drug. And when I ignore the plot altogether because I just want to write dirty emotive prose, I'm trying to make that same drug.

Emphasis on "trying", by the way. I'm not suggesting I regularly succeed at it. I'm totally fumbling through. That's why I'm here trying to learn from others.

 

[StillStunned]

I reckon a bit of blatant self promotion is fine, if it's a one-liner and the story link is to something that's applicable the discussion.

If someone opens a post with a long yak about themselves and their story, though, I reckon it belongs over in the Feedback Forum, which is what that Forum's for.

What about if someone wants to "discuss the craft of writing"? With other authors? That's literally what the Authors' Hangout is for.

If I post a WIWAW, I'm opening a discussion about the craft of writing. I talk about styles, imagery, word choice. I talk about the thought processes behind the story.

Anyone is welcome to weigh in. That's the whole point. Let's talk about these things, because as a writer I'm interested in them. I want to hear how others approach them, what others think about my own approach.

 

[ElectricBlue]

What about if someone wants to "discuss the craft of writing"? With other authors? That's literally what the Authors' Hangout is for.

If I post a WIWAW, I'm opening a discussion about the craft of writing. I talk about styles, imagery, word choice. I talk about the thought processes behind the story.

Anyone is welcome to weigh in. That's the whole point. Let's talk about these things, because as a writer I'm interested in them. I want to hear how others approach them, what others think about my own approach.

I guess I've been around close on ten years, and I've always been used to the Feedback Forum being the place for discussion on individual stories, and the Hangout for the more general stuff. That's what I saw when I arrived and looked around at the forums, and that's the demarcation I've always followed.

Most of the worthwhile commentary in the FF comes from folk in the AH anyway, but the Forum does attract people who never come to the AH - there's a little more reader involvement, I think. Not much, but some.

The problem is, there are lots of folk here who don't even know the Feedback Forum is there.

 

[GrushaVashnadze]

Thank you for the many fine responses to my original knot of questions, which have been fascinating, thought-provoking and educational.

Please be reassured that I take it as an unassailable axiom that we should all

Write what you want.

And I think it is wise to recognise that

we're all guilty of a little shameless self promotion sometimes. I don't see any real harm in it. We're all trying to get more eyes on our stories.

Below, some of the comments in this thread which have particularly struck a chord with me (though, I hasten to add, this does not mean that you should necessarily agree with me, or them):

something to make you think, and that something is tied up in the sexiness itself.

my contexts should have emotional content, and my situations should have a visceral thrill.

even when it is all about sex, it is about the character's attitudes toward it, the conflicts their desires have with their "normal" life.

Things that provide depth:
Motive ~
3D Characters ~
Conflict ~
Show Don't Tell ~

not everything is just that simple, even if on the surface, it appears to be.

it leans heavily on plot and often has a strong theme to it.

There are a lot of ways I can think of:
Novelty -
Prose -
Pacing -
Characters -
Plot -

And I simply adore the following comment, which very much echoes my own modus operandi (Kiitos, Omemainen!):

I don’t sit down and plan on what themes I’ll cover. I write a story and then go oo, so this is what I had to say.

If any of you (e.g. @countdowntolov3, @Britva415, @intim8, @pink_silk_glove, @M_K_Babalon, @KeithD, @Omenainen) feel like pointing me towards particular stories of yours which embody some of your ideas above, please send me a link or two. I could, I am sure, learn much from reading them. (And I am always delighted when other writers promote their own stories to me: I receive it as a friendly gesture...)

I am wary of responding in too much detail, lest what I say sound too much like $E1f-Pr0M0t!oN. But, with your indulgence, I would just like to add to the list some favourite techniques of my own, which perhaps have the potential to embody "depth" in a piece of smut, and which I am quite (too?) fond of. I include links to examples, not (merely) because I have an "oversized ego", but just in case you are interested; if not, please summarily ignore all the following:
- Contrast: e.g. in Our Porge, between a girl out dogging for the first time and a faithful middle-aged couple celebrating their 30th anniversary in bed
- Allegory: e.g. in Metamorphoses ch. 1, to the Greek myth of Daphne; or ch. 3, to Wagner's Die Walküre
- Pastiche: e.g. in Fuck Talk Too, invoking Bertolt Brecht
- Satire: e.g. in Metamorphoses ch. 4, vis-à-vis certain aspects of contemporary sexual culture
- Farce: e.g. in Fuck Talk, satirising cybersex, pornographic language, and smut writers (!)

As ever, do not feel obliged to agree with me, or to like my stories, or even to look at any of them! Variety is essential - but I think it's fun to discuss that variety.

Thank you, once again, for your many fascinating replies.

Be nice.

Grusha

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I feel I was somewhat imprecise in my previous post. Yes, the aggressive flaunting of stories irks. It's tedious and eye-rolling when overdone and yeah, it's often overdone on this board by many AH residents. But that wasn't the thing that prompted my harsh reaction. Sure, many AH authors flaunt their stories, but they are also mostly modest about it.
"Check out my new story, maybe you'll like it." "I tried to touch on this or that theme, I would like to hear your opinion." etc. Mostly.
Yet your posts are all pomp and pretentiousness, in a way that would put even Tilan to shame. In every spot available on Literotica, you post the positive comments you received from (two?) Literotica authors, as if those are worth the Nobel Prize in literature. More than that, you invoke philosophy, great works of art, great artists... all in relation to your own stories. I can promise you that many AH authors are rolling their eyes when reading your posts, while still trying to respond to the legitimate question in them that is definitely worth discussing. They are all well-mannered and tolerant and they thus refrain from saying anything to call you out. Well, as you can obviously see, I am not.

That being said, I apologize to everyone who feels I detracted from this discussion. If anything, the subject of this thread is a worthy one, and in that regard, I thank the OP for bringing it up. I just wish he did it in a different way.

 

[Omenainen]

If any of you (e.g. @countdowntolov3, @Britva415, @intim8, @pink_silk_glove, @M_K_Babalon, @KeithD, @Omenainen) feel like pointing me towards particular stories of yours which embody some of your ideas above, please send me a link or two. I could, I am sure, learn much from reading them. (And I am always delighted when other writers promote their own stories to me: I receive it as a friendly gesture...)

Oh, wow. Hmm. What would illustrate my pantsing process. There was the time I set out to write a gay romance and ended up writing about destigmatizing mental illnesses.

Or the writing exercise where the instruction was to write a power imbalance and then reverse it, and what I produced in the allotted ten minutes was so close to 750 words that I made it into my last year’s 750… it’s about smashing the patriarchy.

The flip side is that I can’t write specifically about something to save my life. For this year’s Pink Orchid I set out to write anger, but what I wrote was some sort of sullen confusion instead. But because I’m not obliged to write about a specific topic, it works out for me. I couldn’t imagine trying to create for specific purpose or deadlines anyway, like if I was trying to make a living by writing.

 

[Britva415]

my contexts should have emotional content, and my situations should have a visceral thrill

point[...] me towards particular stories of yours which embody some of your ideas above

The stories in my Genie's Wish series are about a guy making effort to create emotions and thrills for the sake of showing women a damn good time by giving them stakes - ideally by satisfying something they're hungry for. It's not spelled out, but, the guy is hungry for these connections and meaning, as well. That it's meaningful to her makes it meaningful to him, even though none of these interactions are within established relationships.

The rest of my stories generally don't involve "stakes" as much as just:

Really spelling out the under-the-skin sensations of sex - so that the story is hopefully less a list of acts intended to provoke and titillate, and do more to bring the reader into it by showing what it's like to be experiencing those acts in that situation.

As well as revealing the feelings, thoughts and motivations characters have in order to create more of a "you are there" experience, stuff the reader can relate to so the sex scenario seems more real and creates reactions - hopefully fun, sexy ones.

This is what I try to do. I try to write stuff that's like what I'd like to read, and I don't like to read highly superficial "A, B, C happened" stories that have no depth. Visceral thrill and emotional content don't have to mean the story changes someone's world, but their presence rather than their absence in a story which is "simple erotica" as the phrase seems to go these days makes it arousing rather than ho-hum, to me.

 

[countdowntolov3]

- Contrast
- Allegory
- Pastiche
- Satire
- Farce

Your list of techniques is quite different than the lists @pink_silk_glove and I made (character, prose, motivation, conflict, pacing...) I doubt I need to explain the difference, but let's say that your list is literally devices that may or may not appear anywhere in an entire novel while the other list is basic stuff that is likely to appear on every page.

That's interesting. Or, maybe it's not. Maybe it just shows we're taking about different things when we say "depth". But I think it's worth teasing out.

So, question for you: In your mind, are you making the reader hornier by wrapping your story in satire, or do you feel that the older/younger settled/searching contrast in Our Porge is an erotic tool? I think it's clear these devices add to your works. They're built around them. But I'm unsure if they add to the sexiness of the work, and I wonder what you think.

 

[GrushaVashnadze]

many AH authors are rolling their eyes when reading your posts... They are all well-mannered and tolerant and they thus refrain from saying anything to call you out.

That's all right. Some people will like what I write; others will not. I too roll my eyes at some of the things other people write here. I try to be well-mannered and tolerant in response. We all have different personalities and styles, and will naturally like different things, and be irked by different things: I think that's fine.

your posts are all pomp and pretentiousness,

Here's an interesting article, from the Guardian: In Defence of Pretentiousness

you invoke philosophy, great works of art, great artists... all in relation to your own stories.

Yes. I like philosophy, great works of art, and great artists. I find such things exciting, and sexy; and (as I mentioned in my last post) I think they help to embody "depth", and create good stories. So I aspire to learn from them, and imitate them. But if you don't, that's absolutely fine. (Vide supra, on "pretentiousness".)

@Omenainen & @Britva415 - thanks: I've added some of your stories to my reading list!

we're talking about different things when we say "depth". But I think it's worth teasing out. So, question for you: In your mind, are you making the reader hornier by wrapping your story in satire, or do you feel that the older/younger settled/searching contrast in Our Porge is an erotic tool? I think it's clear these devices add to your works. They're built around them. But I'm unsure if they add to the sexiness of the work, and I wonder what you think.

Yes, I think the word "depth" is... er, deep. But worth teasing out. Hence this thread!

Your question is a really good one. Some people say my stories are "unerotic"; others say they are so fucking hot they couldn't stop jerking off. Sexiness lies, I suppose, in the eyes (or other bodily parts) of the beholder.

I think my approach to "depth" is connected to my approach to structure. I mention a few of these ideas in this thread: "structuring fuckturing". I won't repeat it all here, but, in brief, I think that if a story incorporates a variety of overlapping arcs (some sexual, others not), then it is possible for the sexiness (even the filthiness) to be maintained, even if the main subject matter is not intrinsically sexy, or might otherwise be unappealingly "deep". That's what happens in some of my favourite porn movies (e.g. The Opening of Misty Beethoven, Throat: a Cautionary Tale, and many of the best [early] films of Mario Salieri), and in stories like Jaymal's Gabrielle and the Devil. I try to learn from those examples. Easier in a longer story or a novel, I think, than a short story.

Conflict ~ There literally is no plot if there is no conflict and if there is no plot then the chances of achieving any depth become very slim.

I love this point, which is connected to what @countdowntolov3 was saying above. "Depth" comes from people questioning themselves. And we are made to question ourselves by conflict. This kind of links up with what I said above about "contrast" and "satire" - which are a couple of my favourite ways of bringing conflict into a sex story. Point me to some of your favourite creations, @pink_silk_glove, and I'll put them on my reading list.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Your list of techniques is quite different than the lists @pink_silk_glove and I made (character, prose, motivation, conflict, pacing...) I doubt I need to explain the difference, but let's say that your list is literally devices that may or may not appear anywhere in an entire novel while the other list is basic stuff that is likely to appear on every page.

We talk about depth in story telling and we think, yea we know what a story is, but we also know that stories are wildly different. If you are writing a novel you will likely want to include heavy doses of all of those prime pillars (setting, characterization, plot/motive, conflict, description/imagery, theme etc) even if in varying amounts, but in a 3000 word vignette you just won't have room for all that. Your characters still shoudln't be cardboard but they may not develop at all (unless the point of your story is one life-changing scene for instance). Your setting may be largely irrelevant (perhaps a dark shapeless room will suffice). You will probably be relying heavily on theme and style and you might have to be extra careful with your pace. Throwing in 500 words of backstory in a 3k story is adding like 17% extra length to the story. Do you have that much of the reader's attention span to do that? Maybe, maybe not.

 

[Britva415]

Here's an interesting article, from the Guardian: In Defence of Pretentiousness

What a farce. The promised pretense never materializes.

In 3200 words, I could only find one single sentence which appeared to be a defense of pretentiousness - everything else in it was defending the accusation of pretentiousness, not the pretentiousness itself. Even that one sentence I found turned out to be not a defense of pretentiousness, but a whataboutism pointing out that some criticisms of pretentiousness are themselves pretentious.

Hardly a defense.

And this is an example where the accusation (mine) is of literal "pretentiousness." It's not subjective. The title sets up a pretense - the article pretends to be something it's not.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

What a farce. The promised pretense never materializes.

In 3200 words, I could only find one single sentence which appeared to be a defense of pretentiousness - everything else in it was defending the accusation of pretentiousness, not the pretentiousness itself. Even that one sentence I found turned out to be not a defense of pretentiousness, but a whataboutism pointing out that some criticisms of pretentiousness are themselves pretentious.

Hardly a defense.

And this is an example where the accusation (mine) is of literal "pretentiousness." It's not subjective. The title sets up a pretense - the article pretends to be something it's not.

Well said.
That article was also pretentious, no?

 

[Britva415]

Well said.
That article was also pretentious, no?

I mean, I just said that

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I mean, I just said that

I know. I'm just having fun.

 

[intim8]

feel like pointing me towards particular stories of yours which embody some of your ideas above,...

Aces is about an introverted college guy who very suddenly finds himself in extremely high demand, but all he ever wanted was to have one nice girlfriend. He spends the series trying to reconcile the two, and the fact that he likes all the random sex he's getting.

If you read it, let me know what you think.

 

[MelissaBaby]

I reckon a bit of blatant self promotion is fine, if it's a one-liner and the story link is to something that's applicable the discussion.

If someone opens a post with a long yak about themselves and their story, though, I reckon it belongs over in the Feedback Forum, which is what that Forum's for.

I can't agree with that. The masthead describes the AH as a place to "discuss the craft of writing."

I had considered posting in response to the OP about how I try to create "depth" in my writing. I decided it was not worth the negativity it would generate.

But how would I have done so without references to and examples from my own stories?

I don't think such a discussion would fit in the Feedback forum, because it would not be eliciting discussion of the cited story per se. It would likely go off topic very quickly.

I still enjoy the social media aspects of the AH, but serious discussion about writing is getting harder to come by.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I don't think such a discussion would fit in the Feedback forum, because it would not be eliciting discussion of the cited story per se. It would likely go off topic very quickly.

I still enjoy the social media aspects of the AH, but serious discussion about writing is getting harder to come by.

It is hard to get such discussion going, I agree, but I think a lot of that is down to a very small number of individuals who continue to disparage those authors who do enjoy deeper discussion, who dismiss all of us as pretentious wankers.

In terms of the Feedback Forum, I guess my view of it remains flavoured by what it was ten years ago when I first came to Lit, and it did have a more active dynamic - mostly due to very intelligent critique threads led by two, maybe three writers. The @Omenainen and @AwkwardMD review thread serves the same function today, but the overall traction is less than it was, which is a shame.

 

[KeithD]

I think serious discussion about writing is hard to come by here because there's rarely (but sometimes) a new aspect of writing offered up here. After the twentieth time of relating how/why you do this or that with your stories, it becomes a lot harder to dip into the discussion.

Also, somewhat in response the EB's note of disparagement cropping up here, I see a lot of "this is the way to do it" or "this is the way to get high ratings here" posturing when fiction is pretty wide open on how it can be approached and presented. Much of the discussion funnels into limiting rather than expanding.

When I first came to Lit., there was a post at the top of the AH every day (done on a rota) that highlighted a board member's pick-of-the-day stories from the new list. That sometimes generated interesting discussion. In fact, I believe I only noticed there was a discussion board because someone sent me an e-mail suggesting I might want to see what someone had posted about one of my stories there.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

If any of you (e.g. @countdowntolov3, @Britva415, @intim8, @pink_silk_glove, @M_K_Babalon, @KeithD, @Omenainen) feel like pointing me towards particular stories of yours which embody some of your ideas above, please send me a link or two. I could, I am sure, learn much from reading them. (And I am always delighted when other writers promote their own stories to me: I receive it as a friendly gesture...)

II'm not sure what you prefer to read, so I'll point you in the direction of the story I was talking about. It's on my @JaxRhapsody account, called Ghost In The Mansion. It starts off innocent enough, almost like some b grade horror movie, until they dig deel into the ghost.