"depth of storytelling"

[MelissaBaby]

It is hard to get such discussion going, I agree, but I think a lot of that is down to a very small number of individuals who continue to disparage those authors who do enjoy deeper discussion, who dismiss all of us as pretentious wankers.

That's exactly what happens. As soon as you mention themes, metaphors, motifs, etc., you get the "you think you're better than me" or "these are just supposed to be stories to get the reader off" remarks.

Just titling a thread something like "depth of storytelling" invites some people to get defensive, as we have seen. I never open the large majority of threads, because they aren't relevant to me. I don't go into threads discussing incest stories, for example, because I have no interest in reading or writing them. But for some reason, when you try to talk about writing more "literary" stories, people who have no interest in doing so nearly always make it about how nobody can tell them what to write, no matter how many caveats you post to assure them that you had no such intention.

In terms of the Feedback Forum, I guess my view of it remains flavoured by what it was ten years ago when I first came to Lit, and it did have a more active dynamic - mostly due to very intelligent critique threads led by two, maybe three writers. The @Omenainen and @AwkwardMD review thread serves the same function today, but the overall traction is less than it was, which is a shame.

I always read AWD and Om and I wish there was more of that sort of discussion. But yeah, that's an anomaly.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

That's exactly what happens. As soon as you mention themes, metaphors, motifs, etc., you get the "you think you're better than me" or "these are just supposed to be stories to get the reader off" remarks.

Just titling a thread something like "depth of storytelling" invites some people to get defensive, as we have seen. I never open the large majority of threads, because they aren't relevant to me. I don't go into threads discussing incest stories, for example, because I have no interest in reading or writing them. But for some reason, when you try to talk about writing more "literary" stories, people who have no interest in doing so nearly always make it about how nobody can tell them what to write, no matter how many caveats you post to assure them that you had no such intention.



I always read AWD and Om and I wish there was more of that sort of discussion. But yeah, that's an anomaly.

I know for a fact I'm better than nobody, and I pay that bullshit dust, most of the time. Some motherfuckers need to stop getting their pride hurt on the internet. Is our Verdana words hurtin' you that much? I had some dude the other day gimme his whole car owning resume just because I told him he was wrong about one, in a youtube comment section. Sometimes it really is; chill, it's the internet. Being pompous ain't getting you interwebz points.

 

[MelissaBaby]

I think serious discussion about writing is hard to come by here because there's rarely (but sometimes) a new aspect of writing offered up here. After the twentieth time of relating how/why you do this or that with your stories, it becomes a lot harder to dip into the discussion.

Also, somewhat in response the EB's note of disparagement cropping up here, I see a lot of "this is the way to do it" or "this is the way to get high ratings here" posturing when fiction is pretty wide open on how it can be approached and presented. Much of the discussion funnels into limiting rather than expanding.

When I first came to Lit., there was a post at the top of the AH every day (done on a rota) that highlighted a board member's pick-of-the-day stories from the new list. That sometimes generated interesting discussion. In fact, I believe I only noticed there was a discussion board because someone sent me an e-mail suggesting I might want to see what someone had posted about one of my stories there.

All good points.

There is steady turnover here and to many people, that twentieth thread is their first on the subject. But at the same time, it's not reasonable to expect veteran authors to reiterate their opinions over and over again. It's a conundrum.

I've won a couple of contests recently, and I generally get high scores, so I have attracted a pretty steady stream of DMs from people asking me to look over their stories or for advice on various aspects of writing. I assume many authors who have been here longer and are more well known than I am get them as well. I am happy to be of help, and they are generally positive discussions. While many of those would be proper subjects for Story Feedback, just as many ask "How do I make my characters more realistic?" or "Can you give me some tips on how to use foreshadowing?" and seem to be to be proper AH topics.

There are reasons why they are asking privately instead, and that's too bad.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I am not sure how much of what has been said is about me, but it doesn't really matter. I just want to point a few things out and make a few suggestions. While I did go after the OP personally, I stated in more than one post here that this is a valid topic, one worthy of a proper discussion.
There are clearly enough people interested in discussing these things in depth. It is also my impression that such topics quickly derail into banter, but I think there is an even bigger issue. In such topics, people can't help constantly bringing up their own work, and soon it all just becomes people taking turns to talk about what they did in their own stories. It seems to be a general compulsion here. I don't know about the rest of you, and again, maybe I am the only "awkward" one in that sense, but as soon as that happens, I lose interest in the discussion. I don't think any of those things were ever discussed properly since I joined the board. Again, maybe that's just my opinion.

I also like the @AwkwardMD and @Omenainen thread because things are actually being discussed there, things about story crafting, writing, pacing, etc. Sometimes I feel like contributing something but I never did (except that one time) because it's not my opinion that author asked for, so I always felt like it would be seen as inserting myself into a discussion.
Now we get to the heart of the matter and the point I wanted to make. Why does it work there, but it never (in my opinion) works in AH threads? Because in their thread, there is one clear subject of analysis, one story that is linked and everyone is talking about that and in relation to that. With such clear focus, some in-depth analysis and opinions can be given. As I said above, in AH, you would have authors write a few lines and then link their own stories. I mean, for god's sake, even when somebody makes a thread asking for recommendations in a certain Lit genre, 95% of people end up linking their own stories only. It's who we are.

I've been pushing for something for several months (mostly in banter with Em) but it never seemed to catch much interest. I think it's one of few ways where we could really enjoy fruitful discussion. The idea was to take one Lit story at a time, a story of an author long gone from Lit so no toes would be stepped on. Then, as in a book club, we would analyze and discuss the craft of writing in relation to that one story. I think it would be amazing to hear all the different points people would bring up, all the different points of view and writing philosophies.

Does anyone like that idea? If so, let us know and maybe we can give it a go. In my humble opinion, considering our mentality, I don't see any other way working. If you have better ideas, I would also be happy to hear them.

 

[StillStunned]

The idea was to take one Lit story at a time, a story of an author long gone from Lit so no toes would be stepped on. Then, as in a book club, we would analyze and discuss the craft of writing in relation to that one story. I think it would be amazing to hear all the different points people would bring up, all the different points of view and writing philosophies.

Does anyone like that idea? If so, let us know and maybe we can give it a go. In my humble opinion, considering our mentality, I don't see any other way working. If you have better ideas, I would also be happy to hear them.

This was what I'd hoped to achieve with my WIWAWs. I began them specifically as a way of saying: "I'm opening this story up for a frank and honest discussion, particularly as it relates to the aspects I'm highlighting here." As opposed to discussing someone else's writing, and potentially upsetting someone who didn't invite that sort of scrutiny.

And of course people want to discuss their own stories. We're like a group of parents talking about children. A few patient nods while someone mentions their kid, and then it's all, "Mine is so much more wonderful!" But if a discussion invites people to say, "I did something similar in one of my stories," so much the better. That brings that story into the discussion.

As I also said in my first couple of WIWAWs, the discussion should be on the merits of the story as is. Not "I only read stories that are at least 7 Lit pages," or "I don't read that category."

 

[AwkwardlySet]

This was what I'd hoped to achieve with my WIWAWs. I began them specifically as a way of saying: "I'm opening this story up for a frank and honest discussion, particularly as it relates to the aspects I'm highlighting here." As opposed to discussing someone else's writing, and potentially upsetting someone who didn't invite that sort of scrutiny.

And of course people want to discuss their own stories. We're like a group of parents talking about children. A few patient nods while someone mentions their kid, and then it's all, "Mine is so much more wonderful!" But if a discussion invites people to say, "I did something similar in one of my stories," so much the better. That brings that story into the discussion.

As I also said in my first couple of WIWAWs, the discussion should be on the merits of the story as is. Not "I only read stories that are at least 7 Lit pages," or "I don't read that category."

I understand the idea and it's a good one, but I also see one serious limitation. You are here still. Most people will refrain from saying what they really think unless it's all positive or mostly positive. It's one serious issue with that approach, one that depicts the way any of us would feel if our story was being heavily criticized. It can't be helped, in my opinion. That is why I thought it a good idea to take the story of an author who is long gone from Lit.

 

[alohadave]

Why does it work there, but it never (in my opinion) works in AH threads? Because in their thread, there is one clear subject of analysis, one story that is linked and everyone is talking about that and in relation to that. With such clear focus, some in-depth analysis and opinions can be given.

Besides that, they actively maintain the focus and try to shut down off topic discussion that could derail the thread.

 

[MelissaBaby]

I am not sure how much of what has been said is about me, but it doesn't really matter. I just want to point a few things out and make a few suggestions. While I did go after the OP personally, I stated in more than one post here that this is a valid topic, one worthy of a proper discussion.
There are clearly enough people interested in discussing these things in depth. It is also my impression that such topics quickly derail into banter, but I think there is an even bigger issue. In such topics, people can't help constantly bringing up their own work, and soon it all just becomes people taking turns to talk about what they did in their own stories. It seems to be a general compulsion here. I don't know about the rest of you, and again, maybe I am the only "awkward" one in that sense, but as soon as that happens, I lose interest in the discussion. I don't think any of those things were ever discussed properly since I joined the board. Again, maybe that's just my opinion.

I also like the @AwkwardMD and @Omenainen thread because things are actually being discussed there, things about story crafting, writing, pacing, etc. Sometimes I feel like contributing something but I never did (except that one time) because it's not my opinion that author asked for, so I always felt like it would be seen as inserting myself into a discussion.
Now we get to the heart of the matter and the point I wanted to make. Why does it work there, but it never (in my opinion) works in AH threads? Because in their thread, there is one clear subject of analysis, one story that is linked and everyone is talking about that and in relation to that. With such clear focus, some in-depth analysis and opinions can be given. As I said above, in AH, you would have authors write a few lines and then link their own stories. I mean, for god's sake, even when somebody makes a thread asking for recommendations in a certain Lit genre, 95% of people end up linking their own stories only. It's who we are.

I've been pushing for something for several months (mostly in banter with Em) but it never seemed to catch much interest. I think it's one of few ways where we could really enjoy fruitful discussion. The idea was to take one Lit story at a time, a story of an author long gone from Lit so no toes would be stepped on. Then, as in a book club, we would analyze and discuss the craft of writing in relation to that one story. I think it would be amazing to hear all the different points people would bring up, all the different points of view and writing philosophies.

Does anyone like that idea? If so, let us know and maybe we can give it a go. In my humble opinion, considering our mentality, I don't see any other way working. If you have better ideas, I would also be happy to hear them.

Speaking for myself, none of this is about you, personally. I'm talking about a dynamic that has been in place since well before you were here.

I just don't see how authors using their own work as references in discussion is a problem. How else are we to respond? If someone says, for example, "What's a good way to add another layer to my story using symbolism?" I could respond in an abstract fashion, or I could refer them to my story Wild Birds of Maine, and explain how the search for a small, presumed extinct sparrow is a metaphor for the main character's rediscovery of the possibility of love in her life. To me, the latter approach is more likely to be helpful. Does it also serve as a plug for my story. Sure. So what?

I think you are right, that AMD and Om's thread works because they specifically focus on one story at a time. That's appropriate for the Story Feedback forum. But that's not what happens in the AH. People don't post here and ask for critiques of their stories, they do that over there. They come here and ask more general questions, about structure, style, dialogue, etc. So multiple examples are going to be cited in reply. Again, so what?

Your idea about a "book club" sort of discussion is fine. But it would serve a whole other purpose.

 

[StillStunned]

I understand the idea and it's a good one, but I also see one serious limitation. You are here still. Most people will refrain from saying what they really think unless it's all positive or mostly positive. It's one serious issue with that approach, one that depicts the way any of us would feel if our story was being heavily criticized. It can't be helped, in my opinion. That is why I thought it a good idea to take the story of an author who is long gone from Lit.

If I wasn't willing to take criticism I wouldn't have posted the threads. I'm very much of the opinion that honest feedback is the best way to improve. There's so much collective skill and wisdom here that it's a shame it doesn't get shared more.

As long as it happens constructively, even harsh criticism is fair. After all, we all understand - or we should - that not everyone is going to like all our stories. A discussion of what we're trying to achieve with a particular piece of writing can help is all to improve our writing, as well as our reading, I think.

 

[MelissaBaby]

I understand the idea and it's a good one, but I also see one serious limitation. You are here still. Most people will refrain from saying what they really think unless it's all positive or mostly positive. It's one serious issue with that approach, one that depicts the way any of us would feel if our story was being heavily criticized. It can't be helped, in my opinion. That is why I thought it a good idea to take the story of an author who is long gone from Lit.

As with Story Feedback, if you put your story up for critique you have to be willing to accept the negative as well as the positive. I've gotten beaten on pretty badly a time or two. I got over it.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

If I wasn't willing to take criticism I wouldn't have posted the threads. I'm very much of the opinion that honest feedback is the best way to improve. There's so much collective skill and wisdom here that it's a shame it doesn't get shared more.

As long as it happens constructively, even harsh criticism is fair. After all, we all understand - or we should - that not everyone is going to like all our stories. A discussion of what we're trying to achieve with a particular piece of writing can help is all to improve our writing, as well as our reading, I think.

Even if you are fully ready to take all the criticism stoically, people won't deliver, in my opinion. I mean, AwkwardMD's and Omenainen's thread are the best example of harsh criticism creating a lot of drama, even if they already built their image and have plenty of history of harsh reviews. No one wants to be that person who slams another author's work.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

If someone says, for example, "What's a good way to add another layer to my story using symbolism?" I could respond in an abstract fashion, or I could refer them to my story Wild Birds of Maine, and explain how the search for a small, presumed extinct sparrow is a metaphor for the main character's rediscovery of the possibility of love in her life. To me, the latter approach is more likely to be helpful. Does it also serve as a plug for my story. Sure. So what?

I understand your point. I just think that too often it starts a chain reaction of people linking their stuff, much of it not really related to the topic being discussed. I realize that that phenomenon probably irks me personally more than an average AH-er, and that is likely why I reacted harshly in this thread.
I mean, if I were moderating the bookclub thing, the first person who linked their own story would be sent to stand in the corner!

 

[yowser]

As far as providing feedback, it makes all the difference in the world to me if I know the writer sincerely wants honest reactions. That's what makes the feedback forum useful, the writer has explicitly asked. For many of us, our creative work is intensely personal, and woven tightly into our heads/worldviews. One needs the right mindset to take an unsparing review, and that mindset often tends to have a dynamic aspect.

I tend not to leave critical comments on stories unless the writer asks for such, either in the story forward/afterword or in their bio.

In theory the WIWAW approach is not a bad idea, but with a couple exceptions, I haven't found many of those posts all that reflective, insightful or instructive. Over in the FF you dodge some of the extracurricular noise that tends to happen in the AH. And I agree that the FF is an underutilized part of the Forum in general.

 

[Omenainen]

I understand your point. I just think that too often it starts a chain reaction of people linking their stuff, much of it not really related to the topic being discussed. I realize that that phenomenon probably irks me personally more than an average AH-er, and that is likely why I reacted harshly in this thread.
I mean, if I were moderating the bookclub thing, the first person who linked their own story would be sent to stand in the corner!

So, you want a book club. You have pretty clear ideas what it could be like. Now, what I don’t understand is why instead of, dunno, setting up a book club thread, you’re roaming other people’s threads telling them they’re doing it wrong?

Be the change you want to see in the world.

 

[AG31]

The idea was to take one Lit story at a time, a story of an author long gone from Lit so no toes would be stepped on. Then, as in a book club, we would analyze and discuss the craft of writing in relation to that one story. I think it would be amazing to hear all the different points people would bring up, all the different points of view and writing philosophies.

I'd jump right in. Sounds like lots of fun. I even have a story to suggest, written by someone who hasn't been around for ten years. But we could invite volunteers who don't have thin skins.

 

[AG31]

This was what I'd hoped to achieve with my WIWAWs. I began them specifically as a way of saying: "I'm opening this story up for a frank and honest discussion, particularly as it relates to the aspects I'm highlighting here." As opposed to discussing someone else's writing, and potentially upsetting someone who didn't invite that sort of scrutiny.

This was your response to @AwkwardlySet's suggestion about a book club. I didn't understand your thread the way you intended. I didn't know it was meant to invite conversation about someone's story, by that someone. I'll go read your OP again. Maybe you could start over with a different title?

 

[AG31]

Speaking for myself, none of this is about you, personally. I'm talking about a dynamic that has been in place since well before you were here.

I just don't see how authors using their own work as references in discussion is a problem. How else are we to respond?

What about having a two discussion threads, one that says up front, "Submitting your own work for examples of what you're saying is encouraged." And the other that says up front "Submitting your own work for examples of what you're saying is prohibited. There is a different thread <link> for that." I'm not trying to be sarcastic here. If two such threads existed, I'd particpate in both, hoping to keep them alive.

 

[AG31]

I understand your point. I just think that too often it starts a chain reaction of people linking their stuff, much of it not really related to the topic being discussed. I realize that that phenomenon probably irks me personally more than an average AH-er, and that is likely why I reacted harshly in this thread.
I mean, if I were moderating the bookclub thing, the first person who linked their own story would be sent to stand in the corner!

Here is an idea I had.

 

[MelissaBaby]

What about having a two discussion threads, one that says up front, "Submitting your own work for examples of what you're saying is encouraged." And the other that says up front "Submitting your own work for examples of what you're saying is prohibited. There is a different thread <link> for that." I'm not trying to be sarcastic here. If two such threads existed, I'd particpate in both, hoping to keep them alive.

If someone wants to start threads with that premise, they are welcome to do so, although I think they'd have a hard time enforcing it. Personally, I don't see the point of discussing writing in a format where we are not allowed to mention our own work.

 

[AwkwardMD]

If someone wants to start threads with that premise, they are welcome to do so, although I think they'd have a hard time enforcing it. Personally, I don't see the point of discussing writing in a format where we are not allowed to mention our own work.

It's quite difficult. I try not to in our thread, because I'm not in it for the self-promotion, but sometimes my own writing is the only example I can think of.

 

[StillStunned]

I understand your point. I just think that too often it starts a chain reaction of people linking their stuff, much of it not really related to the topic being discussed. I realize that that phenomenon probably irks me personally more than an average AH-er, and that is likely why I reacted harshly in this thread.
I mean, if I were moderating the bookclub thing, the first person who linked their own story would be sent to stand in the corner!

I don't see anything wrong with people linking to their own stories, as long as they include concrete examples in the discussion thread. Just a link saying, "I did something like that in my story, just click on this link," doesn't move the discussion forward. Let's face it, most of us aren't going to click on a link, read an entire story looking for what the poster means, and then return to the discussion.

 

[MelissaBaby]

It's quite difficult. I try not to in our thread, because I'm not in it for the self-promotion, but sometimes my own writing is the only example I can think of.

I think there is a reason why the examples of storytelling most frequently used in discussions here are nearly always from movies or TV or a few literary works that have very broad readerships, such as Lord of the Rings or Hitchhikers Guide. And that is, we have no shared Lit canon. If there were even a few dozen stories, from Lit or elsewhere, that we could assume everyone knew, they would be commonly used for examples.

Lacking that, when an example is needed, most people will reach for that which is most familiar to them, their own work.

 

[SimonDoom]

I think there is a reason why the examples of storytelling most frequently used in discussions here are nearly always from movies or TV or a few literary works that have very broad readerships, such as Lord of the Rings or Hitchhikers Guide. And that is, we have no shared Lit canon. If there were even a few dozen stories, from Lit or elsewhere, that we could assume everyone knew, they would be commonly used for examples.

Lacking that, when an example is needed, most people will reach for that which is most familiar to them, their own work.

I see nothing wrong with doing this, so long as it's done in moderation and the examples given genuinely contribute to the discussion. I did this just this morning by giving examples of how I cited scripture in one of my stories. It seems to me a legitimate way of illustrating points made in a discussion.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I see nothing wrong with doing this, so long as it's done in moderation and the examples given genuinely contribute to the discussion. I did this just this morning by giving examples of how I cited scripture in one of my stories. It seems to me a legitimate way of illustrating points made in a discussion.

What you are saying is perfectly reasonable, but also completely out of character behavior for many AH denizens in my opinion. You are also a terrible example in this particular sense.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

This kind of thread (minus its derailing) is exactly the kind of thread that I want to participate in. It's about the craft of writing. Which in turn is you know ... what writers who get together to discuss writing would discuss? ... like the entire purpose of an AH forum? You'd think? Like Hello?

I'm here for the good stuff, not the spam "what did you have for lunch today" or "let's all pat each other on the back" threads. I just skip over all of that. If anyone feels like the victim of pedantry in literary discussions, they can skip these threads just the same and stick to the kindergarten spam.

As for linking your own work for examples, there's nothing 'wrong' with it, but certain folks make it sooooo obvious that it's just an ad in disguise of the discussion, an egotistical cry for attention, and 98% of the time no one says anything, we all bite our tongues, but that 2% of the time that someone gets called on it, the caller is labelled an asshat.

If I need to give an example, I find it easier and more effective to cite a popular movie, something that almost everyone knows, that we can visualize or otherwise recall without having to open a link in a new tab and get acquainted with anything.

An example of character development: Wizard of Oz (we've all seen it) When Dorothy lands in Oz, her only motive is to get home. Everything that she does is predicated on getting home. But then she meets the Scarecrow, the Lion and the Tin Man, and they help her find her way, and in that process through the bonding of friendship, her motives change. She no longer just wants to get home, she also feels a duty to help her friends find a heart, a brain and some courage. As her motives change, she develops.

No links and everybody gets it. On the other hand if I link you to one of my stories for an example, I would tell you that my character Lainey is just a small town girl looking for mischief and fun but once the car ride with a stranger starts getting out of hand, her motives change to just trying to stay unscathed and out of trouble. On the surface you might understand that, but to really get it you'll need to go read 11k words of mine and I know that no one's gonna do that. Dorothy in Oz is just a quicker and more effective example.