Honesty Vs. Transparency

[Angedesoleil]

I've faced a constant battle with people in my life over the concept of what to say and what not to say. It been a mixed blessing. Some people view it as positive that I am unappologetically and openly exactly who and what I am. What you see is that you get is an understatement. Some people view this as a very positive thing.... until I end up in their life and partly their responsibility... then it tends to drive them insane. The very thing that made their life EASY and helped us get a move on ends up frustrating them to no end. This is not a solitary occurrence... this has been a running theme in my life.
It has also painted a target on my back for people who see me as easy prey. They tend to know EXACTLY what buttons to push to get a reaction out of me, because I'm not "guarded" about who I am.

I'm good with me. I've been good with me. I've taken this as just one more thing that is who I am, and who I should be with would value that part of me and understand it.

Yesterday I was REALLY wrestling with this concept. The fallout from it. I was going back through my life and thinking about all of the ramifications of this.

One of the things that I've been open about is that I have Aspergers. One of the specific Aspergers traits I exhibit is that I have a difficulty or uniqueness in language nuance. I see nuance where others don't and I don't see it sometimes where others clearly do. This can cause unexpected humor and unexpected frustration for both myself and those around me.

After a lot of soul searching I came to the conclusion that my issue is rooted in this:

I believe one of the base requirements for myself as a person, myself as a submissive, and myself as a part of this community is HONESTY. I value HONESTY deeply. Honesty with regards to who I am, what I'm about, and what I think, feel, and believe. I have also been taught since a young child that "a lie of omission is still a lie." Aspergers trait #2 ... we like rules. We thrive on rules. Our life is MUCH easier if we have a set of rules to follow. So the rule that "a lie of omission is still a lie" has been one I've followed and taken to heart. It's why I tell on myself even if I wont get caught. It's why I CANT lie. I'm really not capable of it. I have so many physical tells it is comical.
So when dealing with people I tend to hide NONE of myself. That isnt to say there aren't things I keep private... but if I feel it is something that is or I hope will be, something they should be aware of... I make it known *immediately.*

EX: within the first three messages with someone whom I'm sincerely interested in pursuing a relationship with they are made aware of medical conditions that may affect me. This information, I have considered as honesty. It is information that, I believe, might affect their willingness to embark upon that relationship with me. I had considered this HONESTY.

... apparently this is a nuance I missed somewhere. This is apparently TRANSPARENCY. ... which is somehow different from HONESTY. This is a new concept to me. Honesty is apparently, if asked, then either stating the information or making the person aware there is something there that I'm not ready or willing to discuss yet. What I have been isn't honest, it is transparent. I've been made aware that transparency is #1 dangerous and #2 not people's right. That I devalue myself by being transparent.

I'm curious how other people view these concepts. I'm still trying to understand this. I'm still trying to decide how to implement this lesson into my life and into my method of dealing with people.

For you:
what is the difference between honesty and transparency?
Do you value honesty or transparency in relation to vanilla and D/S relationships?
How do you know when to be honest and when to be transparent?
When do you cross the thresh hold from honesty to transparency?

any other insights?

 

[SissySalina]

Sorry now you have confused this sissy.
Transparency is the new kid on the block and is "politically correct" nowadays.
sissy understood that "transparency" dealt with actions and honesty dealt with feelings, is this not so? Honesty is being truthful is it not?

 

[twister947]

Transparency for one is TMI for another. The demands of honesty are in collision with expectations of privacy, dishonesty is oftentimes another way of saying MYOB. There are no "rules", and that makes it exceedingly difficult for folks on the spectrum.

 

[AlwaysFara]

Transparency for one is TMI for another. The demands of honesty are in collision with expectations of privacy, dishonesty is oftentimes another way of saying MYOB. There are no "rules", and that makes it exceedingly difficult for folks on the spectrum.

This. Absolutely this.
And your ways may not jibe with someone else. They have their own set of rules. You don’t have to have a condition to have that.

I would not, in 3 messages of meeting someone, disclose any medical or “issue” about myself UNLESS we were PMing specifically for that reason.
That’s not dishonesty. That’s being kind to myself, until I can trust someone.

 

[kurrginatorX]

Sorry now you have confused this sissy.
Transparency is the new kid on the block and is "politically correct" nowadays.
sissy understood that "transparency" dealt with actions and honesty dealt with feelings, is this not so? Honesty is being truthful is it not?

Salina, you are absolutely correct in explaining action vs. feeling. I hope this helps a lot of other people as well.

 

[HotXBuns]

In this context, I view transparency and honesty as synonymous bedfellows. Essentially what you describe can be covered by both. Whether you are describing honesty or transparency it matters not, only that they are a prerequisite for there to be trust; and it needs to happen on both sides, whether the relationship is vanilla or d/s. I would see it as word-play to distinguish between the two.

Your post has hit upon one of my raw nerves as I loathe dishonesty. To shy away from being honest is the epitome of cowardice. One has to be brave to be honest; with honesty comes the potential need to face the consequences. If you are not prepared to pay the piper then you should not perform the act. This noble trait is sadly lacking within today's society. In fact, lack of transparency (such as a sin of omission) seems to be encouraged, especially when selling things - that really ticks me off.

Nobody is suggesting that you have to broadcast everything about yourself to the world, of course there are things that are appropriate in certain circumstances and not in others. I would be in a lot of trouble if I told every girl with a nice bottom in the grocery store that I'd love to spank them (although I may occasionally be surprised), that would be harassment, not honesty or transparency. Similarly, if you are asked to reveal something about yourself which you are uncomfortable about sharing then it is not a sin of omission if you refuse to give up the information, and actually the honest approach would be to give reasons. However, in a relationship, honesty is the only foundation with any longevity.

Language is all about interpretation and context is everything. This is my take on what you've written and the context provided. One word may be more appropriate than the other within a context, so someone who willfully obfuscated certain of their own character traits could be accused of having a lack of transparency rather than being dishonest, but in the end it amounts to the same thing.

 

[PrettyLilPussy19]

This is a really interesting topic. I think both are relative to who you are talking to and what's expected.

Honesty is pretty clear. Tell the truth. Don't lie. To say omission is also a lie would mean we are all always lying. I omit so many things for clarity or privacy or because someone hasn't earned the right to know that about me yet.

Transparency (to me) would be how open you are about yourself. And being open can be really great but you do have the right - and really the responsibility - to be careful how open you are.

I've made myself a few personal rules around these ideas (and if you are a rule follower - remember you can dictate your own rules) -

1. Be honest but be private. "It's not your business" is a deflection and not a lie. It will also tell you a lot about someone in how they handle being deflected.

2. Don't give yourself away. If someone is really interested in you, make them earn that information. You are worth working and waiting for. If they want to know they will ask - if they don't ask that also tells you a lot about them.

3. Be curious and observant of the other. I do try to meet someone where they are openness wise. And if I'm curious, I will ask. If I'm deflected, I will be respectful.

Just a few ideas that have worked decently for me.

 

[AlwaysFara]

Exactly. Not telling every detail of your life isn’t being dishonest. It’s common sense. Especially on a public site such as this.

 

[barefootgirl69]

I've faced a constant battle with people in my life over the concept of what to say and what not to say. It been a mixed blessing. Some people view it as positive that I am unappologetically and openly exactly who and what I am. What you see is that you get is an understatement. Some people view this as a very positive thing.... until I end up in their life and partly their responsibility... then it tends to drive them insane. The very thing that made their life EASY and helped us get a move on ends up frustrating them to no end. This is not a solitary occurrence... this has been a running theme in my life.
It has also painted a target on my back for people who see me as easy prey. They tend to know EXACTLY what buttons to push to get a reaction out of me, because I'm not "guarded" about who I am.

I'm good with me. I've been good with me. I've taken this as just one more thing that is who I am, and who I should be with would value that part of me and understand it.

Yesterday I was REALLY wrestling with this concept. The fallout from it. I was going back through my life and thinking about all of the ramifications of this.

One of the things that I've been open about is that I have Aspergers. One of the specific Aspergers traits I exhibit is that I have a difficulty or uniqueness in language nuance. I see nuance where others don't and I don't see it sometimes where others clearly do. This can cause unexpected humor and unexpected frustration for both myself and those around me.

After a lot of soul searching I came to the conclusion that my issue is rooted in this:

I believe one of the base requirements for myself as a person, myself as a submissive, and myself as a part of this community is HONESTY. I value HONESTY deeply. Honesty with regards to who I am, what I'm about, and what I think, feel, and believe. I have also been taught since a young child that "a lie of omission is still a lie." Aspergers trait #2 ... we like rules. We thrive on rules. Our life is MUCH easier if we have a set of rules to follow. So the rule that "a lie of omission is still a lie" has been one I've followed and taken to heart. It's why I tell on myself even if I wont get caught. It's why I CANT lie. I'm really not capable of it. I have so many physical tells it is comical.
So when dealing with people I tend to hide NONE of myself. That isnt to say there aren't things I keep private... but if I feel it is something that is or I hope will be, something they should be aware of... I make it known *immediately.*

EX: within the first three messages with someone whom I'm sincerely interested in pursuing a relationship with they are made aware of medical conditions that may affect me. This information, I have considered as honesty. It is information that, I believe, might affect their willingness to embark upon that relationship with me. I had considered this HONESTY.

... apparently this is a nuance I missed somewhere. This is apparently TRANSPARENCY. ... which is somehow different from HONESTY. This is a new concept to me. Honesty is apparently, if asked, then either stating the information or making the person aware there is something there that I'm not ready or willing to discuss yet. What I have been isn't honest, it is transparent. I've been made aware that transparency is #1 dangerous and #2 not people's right. That I devalue myself by being transparent.

I'm curious how other people view these concepts. I'm still trying to understand this. I'm still trying to decide how to implement this lesson into my life and into my method of dealing with people.

For you:
what is the difference between honesty and transparency?
Do you value honesty or transparency in relation to vanilla and D/S relationships?
How do you know when to be honest and when to be transparent?
When do you cross the thresh hold from honesty to transparency?

any other insights?

So, it's not a solitary occurrence? Then, obviously, things should be changed to get a different outcome.

Honesty doesn't mean I give up my safety. I can be honest and still maintain privacy for my own safety, and it takes more than three messages or three weeks to get to know one another. The more time I spend getting to know someone, the more I open up, but I have always been honest.

Transparent. I think that is still different than honesty. I can be transparent with someone about who I am as a person...and still be private about things until there's trust built, and that also takes time.

 

[Bramblethorn]

... apparently this is a nuance I missed somewhere. This is apparently TRANSPARENCY. ... which is somehow different from HONESTY. This is a new concept to me. Honesty is apparently, if asked, then either stating the information or making the person aware there is something there that I'm not ready or willing to discuss yet. What I have been isn't honest, it is transparent. I've been made aware that transparency is #1 dangerous and #2 not people's right. That I devalue myself by being transparent.

I'm curious how other people view these concepts. I'm still trying to understand this. I'm still trying to decide how to implement this lesson into my life and into my method of dealing with people.

For you:
what is the difference between honesty and transparency?
Do you value honesty or transparency in relation to vanilla and D/S relationships?
How do you know when to be honest and when to be transparent?
When do you cross the thresh hold from honesty to transparency?

any other insights?

For me, "honesty" is about not misleading people (including lies by omission), and "transparency" is about making information fully available to them. As an example, if I'm hiring somebody for a job, honesty might involve mentioning that money is tight and people probably won't be getting raises for a few years. (Especially if they ask about that, but even if they don't, because it's reasonable to expect that it would be important to them.) OTOH, transparency might be more about giving them access to the details of the hiring process ("the decision will be made on the following criteria by a panel of three staff...")

With that said, I'm not sure it's going to be productive trying to establish exact definitions for "honesty" vs. "transparency". Even if all of us here came to some agreement about what these words meant, there's no guarantee that the next person you meet will have the same understanding of those terms. It may be necessary to unpack the concepts you want to discuss (and as a fellow autistic person, I'm aware that this can be a LOT of work) instead of looking for a single word that will be understood exactly how you want it to be understood.

My principles around this stuff, roughly:

1. When dealing with possibly unreasonable/dangerous people, it may be necessary to lie or omit significant information in order to protect oneself or others. (For example, transgender people might not feel safe disclosing transgender status until they've assured themselves that it's safe to do so; similarly for other stigmatised stuff like sex work or STI status.) This may override the other stuff below, though if you're keeping secrets obviously you need to be extra-careful about not harming your partners.

2. In general, people have the right to be guardians of their own happiness, which means having access to the information they consider necessary to do that - even if it's information that wouldn't be important to me making a similar decision. As a rule of thumb, if they would feel disappointed/shocked/upset to find it out in some other way, then you should tell them about it.

3. It's sometimes hard to gauge how much people want, and us autistic folk have a tendency to overshare rather than risk undersharing. One technique that can be helpful here is to give people access to the relevant information without compelling them to use that access.

For instance: write the stuff that might be important in a blog (structured so it's reasonably navigable), and point people at the blog. Then they can choose for themselves how much or how little they want to read, without risk of oversharing. If you're anything like me, explaining some stuff on the fly can be taxing, so having a standard "manual" can be handy.

 

[Angedesoleil]

deleted

 

[Angedesoleil]

For me, "honesty" is about not misleading people (including lies by omission), and "transparency" is about making information fully available to them. As an example, if I'm hiring somebody for a job, honesty might involve mentioning that money is tight and people probably won't be getting raises for a few years. (Especially if they ask about that, but even if they don't, because it's reasonable to expect that it would be important to them.) OTOH, transparency might be more about giving them access to the details of the hiring process ("the decision will be made on the following criteria by a panel of three staff...")

With that said, I'm not sure it's going to be productive trying to establish exact definitions for "honesty" vs. "transparency". Even if all of us here came to some agreement about what these words meant, there's no guarantee that the next person you meet will have the same understanding of those terms. It may be necessary to unpack the concepts you want to discuss (and as a fellow autistic person, I'm aware that this can be a LOT of work) instead of looking for a single word that will be understood exactly how you want it to be understood.

My principles around this stuff, roughly:

1. When dealing with possibly unreasonable/dangerous people, it may be necessary to lie or omit significant information in order to protect oneself or others. (For example, transgender people might not feel safe disclosing transgender status until they've assured themselves that it's safe to do so; similarly for other stigmatised stuff like sex work or STI status.) This may override the other stuff below, though if you're keeping secrets obviously you need to be extra-careful about not harming your partners.

2. In general, people have the right to be guardians of their own happiness, which means having access to the information they consider necessary to do that - even if it's information that wouldn't be important to me making a similar decision. As a rule of thumb, if they would feel disappointed/shocked/upset to find it out in some other way, then you should tell them about it.

3. It's sometimes hard to gauge how much people want, and us autistic folk have a tendency to overshare rather than risk undersharing. One technique that can be helpful here is to give people access to the relevant information without compelling them to use that access.

For instance: write the stuff that might be important in a blog (structured so it's reasonably navigable), and point people at the blog. Then they can choose for themselves how much or how little they want to read, without risk of oversharing. If you're anything like me, explaining some stuff on the fly can be taxing, so having a standard "manual" can be handy.

This post was incredibly helpful as was hotxbuns'.

Thank you, Bramblethorn. #1 is exactly what I'm struggling with. #2 I like your use of "guardians of their own happiness". I might quote you on that. I like it. #3 ... this is a really good idea. I have essays I've written on a lot of it. I guess I'd still face the "when do I share xyz" thing question... but I'm working on it. Thank you.

 

[Bramblethorn]

This post was incredibly helpful as was hotxbuns'.

Thank you, Bramblethorn. #1 is exactly what I'm struggling with. #2 I like your use of "guardians of their own happiness". I might quote you on that. I like it. #3 ... this is a really good idea. I have essays I've written on a lot of it. I guess I'd still face the "when do I share xyz" thing question... but I'm working on it. Thank you.

You're welcome! Good luck with it.

 

[LostGirlTink]

Honesty: you can ask me anything and I will tell you the truth
Transparency: In keeping with the above I maintain that I can say that I don’t wish to share that information. I will never fabricate an answer.
I also live a life in keeping with who I am. I think that’s transparency as well. You said what you see is what you get...
That’s me in a nutshell.
I view that as honesty
The transparency comes in what I let people see.

I don’t know if that makes sense or not.

I value this over just about anything though so it’s an important topic in my opinion

 

[cascadiabound]

Honesty: you can ask me anything and I will tell you the truth
Transparency: In keeping with the above I maintain that I can say that I don’t wish to share that information. I will never fabricate an answer.
I also live a life in keeping with who I am. I think that’s transparency as well. You said what you see is what you get...
That’s me in a nutshell.
I view that as honesty
The transparency comes in what I let people see.

I don’t know if that makes sense or not.

I value this over just about anything though so it’s an important topic in my opinion

This makes perfect sense and is the way I approach things as well.
thanks for putting it so well.

 

[midwestyankee]

My older son has had similar challenges for much of his life. As a school kid he saw little value in having to do homework to practice a skill that he had already mastered during class. He saw homework, for the most part, as the teacher’s effort to exert unnecessary control over his life when all that should have mattered was whether he had learned a given principle, say the order of operations in resolving a mathematical computation, and could put TI to use when needed. Homework was, to quote him, “completely stupid!!!” with emphasis on the exclamation marks. And he told his teachers this regularly from first grade on. When he got his first job as a teenager, he believed that his supervisor was not smart and that he made poor decisions. So he told the supervisor these things once too many times (which was twice, as I recall) and was fired. It took a couple more years before he learned that keeping certain observations to himself (albeit accurate ones) was easier than looking for a new job. Until he learned that lesson, he defended himself by pointing out that it felt dishonest to keep from telling people what he believed. He didn’t want to omit the truth.

It took a long while, but eventually he came to see that certain truths are like statistical noise. While it is part of the data set, it tends to complicate the calculation of the curve and, by itself offers no truth from which to draw useful conclusions about the data.

 

[policywank]

Most of the answers do come down to some kind of judgment as to the line between honesty and transparency. As the OP noted there is such a thing as dishonesty through omission, at least for me there is. But where does that intersect with the right to privacy? For me the distinction lies at the point of whether someone has a reasonable “right to know.” To the extent that they have no right to know but I want to tell them anyway the question is “do they want to know.”

Of course those concepts are subject to judgment.

To add one more layer, while I am totally against lying there may be situations where it is the only viable option to protect a degree of privacy. For instance, imagine someone asks you a very sensitive question to which they have no right to the information. Suppose further that the truth could be damaging to you and to others because the person asking will use the information in an unfair way. And finally suppose that any obfuscation (like refusal to answer) will be taken as affirmation. Take an extreme - a genocidal regime officer asks if you are hiding any of the people he/she is trying to murder en masse - ok sorry that is really extreme but you get the point. In that case it is reasonable to deny even if it is true.

 

[Nezhul]

I will answer very shortly for now.

People need to lie. And people need to hear lies. Some lies are meant to protect others' feelings.

But transparency is also needed, of course. Everything needs to be in a balance. There are no such things as absolutes.

A lie of omission may indeed still be a lie. And it is. But not every lie is bad. There are lies that are needed, required. Society and interaction with another person just can't function without them. Especially romantic interaction.

I understand it may be harder for you with Aspergers. But Here's the deal: people often don't need to know truth to feel good. They feel best when instead of truth, their knowledge matches with their positive expectations. A lies is only harmful when it has a potential to harm that person because they would operate based on a delusion, or when they miss out on opportunity of happiness because they don't know the truth. The level to which people want truth rather than lies differs from person to person and from topic to topic, but EVERYONE has that margin where truth does more damage than lies. Everyone. Including yourself.

For example. Let's say you are together with a person but you stopped loving that person. They ask, "do you love me?". If you lie at this point, you are only making matters worse for BOTH of you. Yes, breaking up hurts, but it's for the best when you both can start searching for better opportunities RIGHT NOW. It's much, much worse when you lie for 5 years and THEN break up, after hurting each other significantly and wasting 5 years of time.

But another example. A woman asks a man "Who's more beautiful - me or Julia Roberts?". And the right answer to that is saying that Julia Roberts is indeed beautiful, but you like HER better. Even if the person giving that answer thinks that Hollywood actress is indeed objectively more beautiful.
Here, the answer is a lie, if you dig down to the heart of it. But it's the right type of lies. Because, let's face it, what good would the truth do? If you tell her "No, JR is more beautiful than you" - then what does it achieve? Nothing. You just hurt her feelings and nothing more.

And there are HUNDREDS of lies like that, where truth is the worse option, and lies is better.

There is a saying: Ignorance is blessing.
And this saying is on-point.
There are things that are best left unsaid or untold.

 

[Angedesoleil]

My older son has had similar challenges for much of his life. As a school kid he saw little value in having to do homework to practice a skill that he had already mastered during class. He saw homework, for the most part, as the teacher’s effort to exert unnecessary control over his life when all that should have mattered was whether he had learned a given principle, say the order of operations in resolving a mathematical computation, and could put TI to use when needed. Homework was, to quote him, “completely stupid!!!” with emphasis on the exclamation marks. And he told his teachers this regularly from first grade on. When he got his first job as a teenager, he believed that his supervisor was not smart and that he made poor decisions. So he told the supervisor these things once too many times (which was twice, as I recall) and was fired. It took a couple more years before he learned that keeping certain observations to himself (albeit accurate ones) was easier than looking for a new job. Until he learned that lesson, he defended himself by pointing out that it felt dishonest to keep from telling people what he believed. He didn’t want to omit the truth.

It took a long while, but eventually he came to see that certain truths are like statistical noise. While it is part of the data set, it tends to complicate the calculation of the curve and, by itself offers no truth from which to draw useful conclusions about the data.

.... this is one of my all time favorite posts. I'm not kidding. I might have just almost given him a thumbs up and a standing ovation. ( tell him THIS teacher gives my elementary students a "homework fast pass" if they demonstrate mastery for that exact reason. Go logic. ...
I might also have had a boss who pointed out my hubris *accurately* was: "You think you are the smartest one in the fucking room. You might be, but you are so convinced of it that if someone disagrees with you, it MUST be because they just dont understand your point." ... yeah, that one was a life lesson in "the eye sees not so clearly itself, but by reflection."

I like your analogy. I'm going to work on that. Thank you.

 

[Bramblethorn]

My older son has had similar challenges for much of his life. As a school kid he saw little value in having to do homework to practice a skill that he had already mastered during class. He saw homework, for the most part, as the teacher’s effort to exert unnecessary control over his life when all that should have mattered was whether he had learned a given principle, say the order of operations in resolving a mathematical computation, and could put TI to use when needed. Homework was, to quote him, “completely stupid!!!” with emphasis on the exclamation marks. And he told his teachers this regularly from first grade on. When he got his first job as a teenager, he believed that his supervisor was not smart and that he made poor decisions. So he told the supervisor these things once too many times (which was twice, as I recall) and was fired. It took a couple more years before he learned that keeping certain observations to himself (albeit accurate ones) was easier than looking for a new job. Until he learned that lesson, he defended himself by pointing out that it felt dishonest to keep from telling people what he believed. He didn’t want to omit the truth.

It took a long while, but eventually he came to see that certain truths are like statistical noise. While it is part of the data set, it tends to complicate the calculation of the curve and, by itself offers no truth from which to draw useful conclusions about the data.

I found it useful to understand that dialogue with neurotypical people is often (usually?) happening on two levels at the same time. One is the factual level, where autistic folk are right at home. The other is an oblique social interaction, dealing with things like status, territory, and threat. So saying "homework is completely stupid!" might be intended solely as a statement about homework, but it's received as a statement about the homework-giver: "you aren't serving a useful purpose and I don't respect your authority". I think many of y'all find this too obvious to need pointing out, but for some of us it's a revelation.

For autistic folk who are aware that this second layer of communication exists, but aren't proficient in it, it can be easy to get caught up in decision paralysis - how do I say the factual thing I want to say without somebody reading between the lines for "subtext" that I never actually intended. So many times I've written stuff and then deleted it unsent because it was easier to be unheard than to think through every possible interpretation somebody might put on it :-/

(But your son was right about the homework, as I understand it there's a growing body of work suggesting that homework doesn't actually help students who are getting adequate teaching in class, and maybe we should just let them enjoy some free time instead!)

 

[Angedesoleil]

I will answer very shortly for now.

People need to lie. And people need to hear lies. Some lies are meant to protect others' feelings.

But transparency is also needed, of course. Everything needs to be in a balance. There are no such things as absolutes.

A lie of omission may indeed still be a lie. And it is. But not every lie is bad. There are lies that are needed, required. Society and interaction with another person just can't function without them. Especially romantic interaction.

I understand it may be harder for you with Aspergers. But Here's the deal: people often don't need to know truth to feel good. They feel best when instead of truth, their knowledge matches with their positive expectations. A lies is only harmful when it has a potential to harm that person because they would operate based on a delusion, or when they miss out on opportunity of happiness because they don't know the truth. The level to which people want truth rather than lies differs from person to person and from topic to topic, but EVERYONE has that margin where truth does more damage than lies. Everyone. Including yourself.

For example. Let's say you are together with a person but you stopped loving that person. They ask, "do you love me?". If you lie at this point, you are only making matters worse for BOTH of you. Yes, breaking up hurts, but it's for the best when you both can start searching for better opportunities RIGHT NOW. It's much, much worse when you lie for 5 years and THEN break up, after hurting each other significantly and wasting 5 years of time.

But another example. A woman asks a man "Who's more beautiful - me or Julia Roberts?". And the right answer to that is saying that Julia Roberts is indeed beautiful, but you like HER better. Even if the person giving that answer thinks that Hollywood actress is indeed objectively more beautiful.
Here, the answer is a lie, if you dig down to the heart of it. But it's the right type of lies. Because, let's face it, what good would the truth do? If you tell her "No, JR is more beautiful than you" - then what does it achieve? Nothing. You just hurt her feelings and nothing more.

And there are HUNDREDS of lies like that, where truth is the worse option, and lies is better.

There is a saying: Ignorance is blessing.
And this saying is on-point.
There are things that are best left unsaid or untold.

Havent spoken to you OH SO IRONICALLY since you smacked me down so hard I ended up in someone's cardboard castle... but ok. ... your point is valid.

I wanted to post a clip in reply from the movie liar liar, but I cant find the clip. It went like this:
Everybody lies! Your precious Neil Lies! When mommy was pregnant with you, she gained 40 lbs...and I was scared. She asked "do I look fat?" I said NO! you're gorgeous, you're GLOWING! if I said she looked like a COW...."

 

[Angedesoleil]

I found it useful to understand that dialogue with neurotypical people is often (usually?) happening on two levels at the same time. One is the factual level, where autistic folk are right at home. The other is an oblique social interaction, dealing with things like status, territory, and threat. So saying "homework is completely stupid!" might be intended solely as a statement about homework, but it's received as a statement about the homework-giver: "you aren't serving a useful purpose and I don't respect your authority". I think many of y'all find this too obvious to need pointing out, but for some of us it's a revelation.

For autistic folk who are aware that this second layer of communication exists, but aren't proficient in it, it can be easy to get caught up in decision paralysis - how do I say the factual thing I want to say without somebody reading between the lines for "subtext" that I never actually intended. So many times I've written stuff and then deleted it unsent because it was easier to be unheard than to think through every possible interpretation somebody might put on it :-/

(But your son was right about the homework, as I understand it there's a growing body of work suggesting that homework doesn't actually help students who are getting adequate teaching in class, and maybe we should just let them enjoy some free time instead!)

Or in my case... I used to say I judge by intention not by effect...and I expected others to do the same. I think this was a way I mentally gave myself an *out* of that spiral. I knew what I meant. I knew my intent was never to be misunderstood, rude, disrespectful what have you... the person reading it should know me and be able to know I'd never ever intend them to feel x way so ... judge me based upon intent.

This is a concept I'd been put to the test over which I ALSO haven't come to terms with completely either.

Yeah... I'm aware of that level of dual dialogue, I have it going on inside myself regularly, but understanding other people's as ot doesn't look like or sound like my own is nigh on impossible.

 

[Nezhul]

Havent spoken to you OH SO IRONICALLY since you smacked me down so hard I ended up in someone's cardboard castle... but ok.

Who are you, again? I honestly don't understand what you are trying to say, and what irony has to do with anything.

I wanted to post a clip in reply from the movie liar liar, but I cant find the clip. It went like this:
Everybody lies! Your precious Neil Lies! When mommy was pregnant with you, she gained 40 lbs...and I was scared. She asked "do I look fat?" I said NO! you're gorgeous, you're GLOWING! if I said she looked like a COW...."

And you think it's wrong that such lies exists? What good would it be to tell the truth in such situation? None. it doesn't benefit you, it doesn't benefit HER. It is a right place to lie.

Also, did telling only truth work well for the protagonist in that movie? It didn't. He had to struggle with everything - from his job to his personal life. Being smart let him work around what was essentially a huge handicap for the entire movie for him. But telling the truth in and on itself was nothing but extreme danger, threatening to ruin everything for him. The film ends in a happy ending, but it realistically should have ended with him losing his job (and likely any prospect of future career in that field), entirely losing connections to his family, being kicked out of his appartment... That's what truth did to him.

Both in short-term and in the long run, Truth is sometimes harmful. It does nothing but bring pain or set people back. And lies can sometimes be a kindness that lets people move on or concentrate on the important things.

It's not important if she looks like a cow or not. What's important is that he chooses to stay with her. By lying he lets her drop the unimportant anxieties and concentrate on what's important - that in his eyes, she shines, no matter what.

All of us have our dark moments. If we always use truth in such moments, we would just make those moments darker for others.

People lie for a reason. It's a mechanism that evolution invented to deal with some of the socual pressures. You can say it's like a crutch in a new and unbalanced mechanism that our social understanding is. But it's an important tool.

By always telling truth as a rule you limit yourself greatly, and no wonder that you experience trouble. Because people, even if they are understanding about your syndrome and your troubles, have a durability. There's only so much blows they can take from your truth before they crumble.

As a person with Aspergers, instead of following a simple rule of always telling the truth, you should put double, tripple, and more thought behind things that you say to others.

Always telling truth is almost as bad as always telling lies. The sweet spot is always found in the balance, in the middle.

Good luck.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Or in my case... I used to say I judge by intention not by effect...and I expected others to do the same. I think this was a way I mentally gave myself an *out* of that spiral. I knew what I meant. I knew my intent was never to be misunderstood, rude, disrespectful what have you... the person reading it should know me and be able to know I'd never ever intend them to feel x way so ... judge me based upon intent.

This is a concept I'd been put to the test over which I ALSO haven't come to terms with completely either.

I wrestle with this one. Other people's styles of communication are valid, and I aim to respect them. OTOH... mine is also valid, and it feels wearying and unfair when it's assumed that the autistic person in the conversation should be the one making all the adjustments so that the NT person doesn't have to. It's especially draining when people "read between the lines" and chastise me for things I don't believe and didn't say.

(I'm feeling a little burned out lately because I've been a little too far outside my comfort zone for too long, managing people and multi-tasking.)

But it's one of the things I like about this sort of forum. So many of the things that people see as "limitations" of a text-based medium are helpful to me. Nobody here is reading things into my body language, and while it doesn't entirely stop people from interpolating, at least there's a record of what was said so I can point out: no, I didn't say that.

Online or IRL, I know I'm among friends when I don't have to run those filters of "what might somebody else read into this?" because I can trust people to just listen to my words.

 

[Angedesoleil]

I wrestle with this one. Other people's styles of communication are valid, and I aim to respect them. OTOH... mine is also valid, and it feels wearying and unfair when it's assumed that the autistic person in the conversation should be the one making all the adjustments so that the NT person doesn't have to. It's especially draining when people "read between the lines" and chastise me for things I don't believe and didn't say.

(I'm feeling a little burned out lately because I've been a little too far outside my comfort zone for too long, managing people and multi-tasking.)

But it's one of the things I like about this sort of forum. So many of the things that people see as "limitations" of a text-based medium are helpful to me. Nobody here is reading things into my body language, and while it doesn't entirely stop people from interpolating, at least there's a record of what was said so I can point out: no, I didn't say that.

Online or IRL, I know I'm among friends when I don't have to run those filters of "what might somebody else read into this?" because I can trust people to just listen to my words.

I think you are one of my new favorite people and I'm dreadfully sorry we won't have more chance to talk.

This forum helps me immensely for similar reasons. I think one of the other related concepts that is difficult for me in conversation is when I am passionate about something. They take that energy negatively. I dont think I'll ever understand how people work. Thank you for these replies. Thank you for letting me know I'm not completely alone in these issues.

I think it is most frustrating to me when I thibk I'm doing a pretty darn decent job of communicating on other people's level... then nope... not good enough. It is very very frustrating.

I don't have people like that irl who can just take me at face/word value. Here Autism carries a HUGE stigma that would not only affect **me** in my professional capacity, but also my children. Even if they end up NT it would be impossible to get them into schools, or later on in relationships. It is messed up, but true. So no one around me can know. I spend a goodly portion of my day just trying to not let anyone be aware. Last year was the first time anyone near me knew. Sadly, her life moved her away from me. Prior to the day before yesterday I had TWO people who understood. Today I'm down to zero .


Adding to your "no one is reading into my body language" ... or tone. Tone is the bane of my existence.