The Bratty Thread

eastern sun said:

I've always thought that a lot of the arguments and lines drawn in the sand stem from the fact that we're all approaching this thing called BDSM from wildly different circumstances.

As you mentioned, behavior that can be enjoyed and sustained a few nights a month may not be enjoyed and sustained 24/7. The same behavior might also signal a total breakdown in communication in an online only or long distance relationship where physical contact and face time is so limited.

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Definitely. Its really easy for me to paint this all or nothing picture of Daddy and i because we really are able to have that. If we shared children and a mortgage and normal life responsibilities it would be much different. i could see doing a 24/7 thing with Daddy but circumstances would have to be such that it really was just he and i with me performing more the role of house slave without any of those pesky life responsibilities like taxes and jobs and kids. i think it would be workable for us but circumstances do not permit it and i'm okay with that. i have a very full and varied life, the best of both worlds in some ways i think.

Keroin said:

Sorry for the sidetrack...


Did you say anything to the woman? What incredibly rude behaviour and such a selfish attitude. If she was that bored, why didn't she just leave the theater and go outside to do her texting?

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I tapped the guy on the shoulder, pointed at the EXIT sign way on the far left wall, grinned and said: "Bet I can hit the X with her phone. Wanna watch me try?" He laughed; she put away the phone in a huff.

No idea why she didn't just leave the theater. As a general rule, I don't talk to brats.

subish2009 said:

Wow, that's incredibly rude. And no, what I'm calling brattiness in myself is NOTHING like that. Let me give an example...say I'm being a smart-ass in a way that he was finding funny, but he tires of it. He tells me to shut up, I don't. He puts his hand over my mouth to make me, I try to bite his hand. That is about as bratty as I get. That would, in fact, be pretty ballsy for me as it would result in consequences. Not anger or hurt or true upset, but consequences, yes.

So, yes, I'm talking about something transpiring in the privacy of my bedroom. But maybe there's not a distinct BDSM definition of brat, but to me there's a difference between the kind of submissive that I and other like me are, and the more service-oriented submissives. There's a fundamental difference in the wiring, it seems to me, of a submissive who wants to be MADE to submit and a submissive who wants to GIVE herself. How do we differentiate that?

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Thank you for the example, which helps clarify what you're talking about here. Labels aside, there are a lot of people who thrive on that type of resistance play, or genuine resistance and forceful response.

With regard to your question - My buddies and I refer to "make-me" subs. As shorthand for expressing our disinterest in that type of relationship, we would usually say: "I don't do 'make-me.' "

minx1 said:

ok so I know why you want to slap, what was the hug for??! Its a pity hug right?

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Even D-types feel compassion, Minx.

Hope you're feeling better today.

JMohegan said:

I tapped the guy on the shoulder, pointed at the EXIT sign way on the far left wall, grinned and said: "Bet I can hit the X with her phone. Wanna watch me try?" He laughed; she put away the phone in a huff.

No idea why she didn't just leave the theater. As a general rule, I don't talk to brats.

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LOL. Nicely handled! People talking or being otherwise disruptive in the theater is something I find highly irritating.

JMohegan said:

I tapped the guy on the shoulder, pointed at the EXIT sign way on the far left wall, grinned and said: "Bet I can hit the X with her phone. Wanna watch me try?" He laughed; she put away the phone in a huff.

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That is wonderful! How I wish you had been at the theatre with me this weekend...two women sitting behind me would not stop talking even though they were shusshed by several people.

callinectes said:

That is wonderful! How I wish you had been at the theatre with me this weekend...two women sitting behind me would not stop talking even though they were shusshed by several people.

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Will the theater not kick people like that out? Every time I've been out and had something like that happen, once someone has complained, management will ask the people to shut up, and if they continue, they'll boot them. Bad management if they don't 'cause that's a good way to lose paying customers.

BiBunny said:

Will the theater not kick people like that out? Every time I've been out and had something like that happen, once someone has complained, management will ask the people to shut up, and if they continue, they'll boot them. Bad management if they don't 'cause that's a good way to lose paying customers.

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Well, the last time I worked in a theatre the cameras were hand-cranked, so my anecdotes may be out of date, but I removed more than one talkative yahoo from the theatre during that time. It sucks to toss someone, but smart management would rather boot two troublemakers than have half a theatre walk out and complain too all fo their friends about how this theatre won't control its' patrons.

eastern sun said:

My habit as an adult has been to set myself up in opposition to whatever is in front of me. I think it allows me to experience myself as existing.

In other words, it's always been very easy for me to just blend into other people, adopt other people's points of views, reflect them or act on their subtle suggestions. As an immature adolescent, when I wanted to figure out who "I" was, I developed a habit of identifying myself as "not you."

Now I think I just wanted to know (and let everyone else know) that I existed. And it was easier to prove if I said "no." Like drawing boundaries around oneself.

Today it's probably most accurate to say I have a submissive nature with oppositional habits. But the habit is so deeply ingrained it feels like a fundamental piece of myself, like I wouldn't be "true" to myself if I didn't express my ability to see the opposing position.

It gets in my way when I'm resisting my husband's ideas. Or even my own ideas, once they've become formulated. I can argue against myself quite effectively. I never say "make me," because the outcome is too obvious. And I don't ask him to justify himself, I've already accepted the reasons for whatever he's asking of me. I've just started the habitual internal debate, and stalled the forward momentum.

He gets frustrated because the whole process ultimately becomes just a delaying tactic, slowing everything down. To him it seems like I'm trying to keep vestiges of control (and I probably am). To me it feels like I'm trying to avoid serious missteps on a burning tightrope. And it doesn't just come out with him. It's also present in my work and career.

I will always be grateful that my husband is a patient man.

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Thank you, Eastern Sun. This gives me a lot to think about.

JMohegan said:

<snip>
Thank you for the example, which helps clarify what you're talking about here. Labels aside, there are a lot of people who thrive on that type of resistance play, or genuine resistance and forceful response.

With regard to your question - My buddies and I refer to "make-me" subs. As shorthand for expressing our disinterest in that type of relationship, we would usually say: "I don't do 'make-me.' "

</snip>

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Make-me subs...yeah, I can see that as a much more descriptive and less ambiguous label than brat. That probably is a lot more accurate for how I tend to be. Thanks!

i would not really describe myself as a make-me sub because for one usually its too easy to make me and second my "bratty" behavior isn't consciously about wanting to be made to do something. Daddy does say it happens when i need a spanking or to hurt but i seldom know that myself. i don't really analyze what i'm feeling with regard to Daddy in order to communicate to him more rationally like i do with my husband.

Here's the thing though. i don't brat with someone until i really trust them. It took 3 months for me to show Daddy any kind of resistance, tantrum or brattiness in RL. If i'm the least bit afraid of being abandoned then i just swallow it and keep it inside. i may try to talk to the person about what i'm feeling but i have found few men believe i am serious until i either throw a fit or walk away because when i'm not throwing a tantrum i'm so ultra compliant. i seem to have a very difficult time finding any middle ground and they often interpret my obedience as happiness with the relationship when i may not be happy with the relationship at all.

Now days i can talk to Daddy if i'm unhappy or throw a fit but he's not out to develop my capacity for mature communication. i have that with my husband. we almost never argue except for the few times over the past 12 years when there has been a really big rift. If one of us has a problem we talk about it. Its comfortable but exceedingly boring. There's very little drama. No passive aggressive behavior. Just two mature adults surviving, working, and raising 4 kids who have rough sex on occasion. i can tell sometimes that other couples look at us and are jealous. i think my husband is mostly fulfilled living this way. He genuinely likes it. i often find it very tedious.

So i find it interesting when people deride brats and ask questions like why can't they interact like a mature adult. Well.... i can. i've done it for 12 years and will most likely continue to do it till i die of boredom. i'll also most likely continue to have something on the side that is not so "mature" to keep life interesting and when it gets really tedious i have it simply to keep life livable.

ataxia.girl said:

i would not really describe myself as a make-me sub because for one usually its too easy to make me and second my "bratty" behavior isn't consciously about wanting to be made to do something. Daddy does say it happens when i need a spanking or to hurt but i seldom know that myself. i don't really analyze what i'm feeling with regard to Daddy in order to communicate to him more rationally like i do with my husband.

Here's the thing though. i don't brat with someone until i really trust them. It took 3 months for me to show Daddy any kind of resistance, tantrum or brattiness in RL. If i'm the least bit afraid of being abandoned then i just swallow it and keep it inside. i may try to talk to the person about what i'm feeling but i have found few men believe i am serious until i either throw a fit or walk away because when i'm not throwing a tantrum i'm so ultra compliant. i seem to have a very difficult time finding any middle ground and they often interpret my obedience as happiness with the relationship when i may not be happy with the relationship at all.

Now days i can talk to Daddy if i'm unhappy or throw a fit but he's not out to develop my capacity for mature communication. i have that with my husband. we almost never argue except for the few times over the past 12 years when there has been a really big rift. If one of us has a problem we talk about it. Its comfortable but exceedingly boring. There's very little drama. No passive aggressive behavior. Just two mature adults surviving, working, and raising 4 kids who have rough sex on occasion. i can tell sometimes that other couples look at us and are jealous. i think my husband is mostly fulfilled living this way. He genuinely likes it. i often find it very tedious.

So i find it interesting when people deride brats and ask questions like why can't they interact like a mature adult. Well.... i can. i've done it for 12 years and will most likely continue to do it till i die of boredom. i'll also most likely continue to have something on the side that is not so "mature" to keep life interesting and when it gets really tedious i have it simply to keep life livable.

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This is interesting to me. We've already established pretty well that I don't do the kind of "bratting" that you do. Mine is more of a cute "come-here-and-make-me" thing that my dominants enjoy.

But the comment of yours that I've bolded above strikes me because, although it makes total sense to me in that context (your bratting is more of a tantrum, so I understand wanting to make sure it will be tolerated before showing it), it makes me notice that mine actually decreases the longer I'm with someone. I mean, I still do the smart-ass thing for fun, but it switches to obedience much faster within the same play scene, and that obedience goes much deeper with someone I trust more. Duh on the latter part, I know.

But it makes me wonder if the make-me thing is a defense mechanism? Or a way of testing how dominant someone is? Or trying to signal my submissiveness to someone without having to be so vulnerable as to come out and say it? Just pondering this and wondering if anyone else feels anything similar.

subish2009 said:

But the comment of yours that I've bolded above strikes me because, although it makes total sense to me in that context (your bratting is more of a tantrum, so I understand wanting to make sure it will be tolerated before showing it), it makes me notice that mine actually decreases the longer I'm with someone. I mean, I still do the smart-ass thing for fun, but it switches to obedience much faster within the same play scene, and that obedience goes much deeper with someone I trust more. Duh on the latter part, I know.

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Mine has been an arc. It peaked about 3 months ago. Last visit i was nothing but obedient.

i don't know. i just don't feel like its a real surrender until i've played all my cards and still come out the loser. i want him to control me, rather than me controlling me.

ataxia.girl said:

<snip>
i don't know. i just don't feel like its a real surrender until i've played all my cards and still come out the loser. i want him to control me, rather than me controlling me.

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That is something that you and I definitely have in common, though I think we just express it in very different ways. I think you go to more extremes behaviorally than I do in order to attain that feeling of being controlled, but I think the impulse is the same. (And I hope you don't read any negative connotations into my saying you go to more extremes...I don't mean anything remotely negative or judgmental by that...just that you've used the word tantrum to describe your behavior whereas mine is just more mouthy): Not wanting to be subservient so much as to be dominated, to be proven to that we have no choice and this male is going to do whatever he damn well pleases.

I don't think we ever managed to get a truly stereotypical brat into this discussion to uncover whether there are additional motivations. Maybe there is no stereotypical brat.

my tantrums are also just about blowing off steam and its just part of the unspoken agreement i have with him. i don't set limits but i also don't hold back. It plays very well into the incest\rape themes that are a big part of our relationship. We also bargain sometimes. i tend to trade sex for love. Sometimes Daddy will even offer to give me something if i do x rather than forcing me. He could force me if he wanted to but sometimes its just easier to buy a milkshake for a bj

I'm realizing I can be kind of a brat at times. I don't usually set out to manipulate though. But I can get a bit caught up in the moment and grow increasingly provocative. I have thought a lot about this lately and talked about it in depth with my P/pyls. I can see several different forms and motivations of my brattiness.

Playfulness is one. Teasing, sassing, bantering. This can quite easily go a little overboard into sarcasm and disrespect.

I'm naturally very inquisutive and analytical. I want to know why and how my PYL thinks. He's not always thrilled about this. "Sit up" "Why?" is apparently not the desired submissive response.

I have a lot of resistance in me. What do we call that? Hesitation or procrastination to obey because of inner resistance. This sometimes comes out as being bratty, but it is definitely not intended to manipulate.

I can also relate a lot to what others have said about wanting to be dominated more than wanting to submit. I need to feel it. I really like what ataxia has said about not wanting to dominate myself.

And yes... wanting attention and something to happen. I push for a reaction. I want things to be intense. I have agendas, I top from the bottom. I get irritated at my PYL because he doesn't do what I want or talk about what I want, so I brat.

This is quite shocking to me. I didn't know. It's not that I have problems communicationg what I need and want. I'm not a masochist and it's not about wanting to get punished (or funished ). I'm not a rude, disrespectful, spoiled and inconsiderate person in general. Although I'm not used to obeying. I'm prone to question everything always. But still, it's very confusing.

Something in the D/s framework brings this out in me. Something in the power exchange. I want it, but it's hard for me to accept on some level I think. The D/s dynamic also makes me feel vulnerable and small. We don't do ageplay at all but it brings out a lot more of the little girl in me than I usually let show. I get very emotional and transparent. And a little bratty.

So there it is. I'm a brat. Not at all comfortable with the lable. Especially not after reading this thread.

Maybe it's just a phase.

i only started getting comfortable with the label after i heard Daddy tell me "i love you because you are mine" a hundred times. He took the power out of my hands. i can't change how he feels by bratting or by being obedient. It makes no difference. Whether i'm a brat or a perfect angel he's going to love me and i'm going to get fucked. The only difference is i might get a spanking as well and i suppose if he wanted me to stop throwing tantrums he would quit spanking me when i throw one but the fact is he likes the emotional transparency. He likes me as powerless, vulnerable, and out of control as he can get me. He accepts that means he will have to deal with whatever that brings to the surface. He likes knowing that he's controlling me though and so do i. That its not really dependent on submission on my part.

i'm not sure how most folks around here interpret ageplay but between Daddy and i a core part of it are the simple raw emotions Daddy encourages me to express in whatever way they come out. The props are optional.

I am a brat through and through and I don't think me or Daddy really know how to truly handle the situation. He disciplines me very well and I know exactly when I'm earning myself a punishment. I stop halfway through my fit and realize what I'm doing. But while Daddy does punish me, sometimes we just let the situation go.....we address it and realize what I've done but he lets me express myself. He tells me that i am a very passionate girl and he doesn't want to put out my fire, I love him for that. Yet, sometimes it is a little confusing to be punished sometimes and other times not.

eastern sun said:

Just to add one more kink to the thread - I have an oppositional nature. As a child, even though I did everything that was asked of me, I operated with huge internal resistance to what I was doing. So now, many years later, I am still working with this knee-jerk impulse to resist.

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I am a brat. Anyone who wanted to be or play with me would most likely have to accept and hopefully love that about me. I think with age-play particularly, brattiness comes into play. I may be a SAM sometimes. I can be sarcastic. I agree with the poster who said that being bratty and throwing tampers can be a release. I agree with the poster who says brats are looking for cold pricklies. It would definatly be more fun for me to stick out my tongue and wiggle my ass than to say, "spank me." A lot of people here take their BDSM very seriously, but for me it's about fun. I am also into noncon, so saying "No" to my dominant partner is part of that as well. I also have an opositional nature. Oh boy am i arguemetative! Another poster says she uses bratty behavior to arouse herself and her partners to the point that it pushes her into subspace. I REALLY agree with that. I am an absolute total brat when i wanna be. But pushed into subspace, it's nearly impossible for me to say no.

I like having a safeword, but i don't generally use it. I like having it so that when i say no, he (she?) knows that I don't mean it. My brattiness is rewarded, yes (for both of us) but not complied with.

Bratiness good or bad I think depends on the dynamic of the BDSM- fun or serious. For playful BDSM with a leaning toward roleplaying (esp. ageplay) where you are pretending that you DON'T want to be punished but you really do, brattiness is a wonderful too. For a TPE (Total Power Exchange) type of relationship, it probably doesn't work as well.

I'm SURE there are plenty of daddy's and doms who want nothing more than a nice little brat who's hide they can tan. These folks would never be happy with a 'well behaved' sub. Rather, they would be bored.

I also want to add that bratiness is fun for the brat precisely because it is 'bad behavoir' that is normally not allowed. I think that it is perfectly healthy to let yourself be a brat in appropriate situations. Also, a person who is in charge is never a brat. If they behave badly, they are an asshole or a bitch. A brat can only be a person who is not in charge, some one in a subordinate position. Thank about how being called a brat is patronizing. Acting bratty pushes you FURTHER into a submissive role no matter how you look at it. It doesn't make you any less submissive, it makes you more so. Bratiness is bad behavior for the powerless.

I'm sure that dominants display their bad behavior on occasion or perhaps even frequently. As I said, this is not called 'bratty' because they are the ones in power. Instead they may act like a bitch or an asshole. Surely they are not always fair and perfect. But being at the top of the totem pole their equivalent behavior is labeled differently. And of course they do not face the same consequences.

Since my fiance and I are just getting into D/s play, I sometimes try to be bratty. Not that I don't want him in control--I use it as a way to test him, since he's just learning how to be dominant.

For instance, he'll tell me not to come while we're playing. I'll do it and it'll be obvious so he knows for sure. Then, of course, he'll ask me, and I'll lie and tell him I didn't. When he responds with a spanking or some other punishment, I'll know he's serious and on the right track.

Other than that, sometimes if he wants me to give him a BJ, I'll resist. Just to be certain he knows how to treat me from there. Of course, trying to turn my head away from him when he's got a grip on me really turns him on, too, so it serves a double purpose.

Being a brat seems to me like a good learning tool, but I figure it would get mighty frustrating for both parties after time.

subish2009 said:

I think this gets into the subsets of submissives again. For someone who considers themselves a "slave" or "owned," I can see where disobedience may never be considered a good thing. And I can understand why those people make comments about how a submissive should NEVER be bratty, how disrespectful it is. But if you're submissiveness runs in a different direction, I don't think disobedience is inherently bad at all. My husband and my online boy both would HATE for me to be obedient all the time. They'd find it boring. Obedience sometimes without the mock fight? Absolutely. But they'd have no interest in someone who truly wanted only to serve them all the time. For us, the challenge of the battle of wills is at least half the fun. And there's no way that's a bad thing for me as a submissive. Does it make me less submissive than a sub who'd never dream of challenging her Dom? Probably, but I'm more than okay with that. I've never claimed to be the subbiest sub who ever subbed. Far from it.

Is it only a bad thing within a relationship where disobedience isn't part of the dynamic? Well, yeah, I think that's probably pretty fair to say. Essentially, isn't this saying, if you both like it, it's not a bad thing, but if it's pissing one of the parties off, then it is? I don't see a way to argue with that.

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Great post!

Glad to see this thread getting re-discovered

Reviving this.

So out of curiosity, I did a thread search in BDSM Talk for "bratting", and here's what I found out of the first 65 posts (that's all the search function would give me) that aren't from self-identified brats, going all the way back to 2006:

Positive mention: 4 (13%)
Neutral mention: 15 (50%)
Negative mention: 11 (37%)

Seems pretty skewed to me.

-

And to give a summary of myself and my tendency toward bratting-type behavior:

To resist and to push buttons is just part of my personality and that's that. My husband and I are both smarmy fucks, so it's just part of our dynamic anyways. But to break it down even more...

1. I do it because my "neutral position" isn't dominance or submission, it's actually solitude. Hierarchy of any sort, whether I'm nearer to the top or to the bottom, is an opt-in thing for me that sometimes doesn't come very easily. Moreover, my default is awkward, unsexy, oblivious, and quiet-- not very fun to dom for probably most people. I express the difficultly I have reconciling that with my desire for subjugation by "bratting". I use it as a way to remind him and myself that no, I'm really not like most other people, you're going to have to coax the part of me that you want out with precision.

2. I do it because we do pet play. I never quite know what to call us; we're not really a dom/sub pair, not really a sadist/masochist pair, definitely not a master/slave pair, though I'm starting to feel like we're becoming more and more owner/pet. And I ain't no fuckin' dog either; I'm a cat in our relationship. I'm sleepy, playful, and I don't understand how submission works but I sure do want to be petted and cuddled and manhandled and have tape put on my back for kicks even though I may not know how to express "this is fun". How do you get a cat to do something? Make whatever it is that they're doing instead the most uncomfortable thing ever. He loves doing that to me.

3. It's part of our humiliation dynamic. It's that delicious feeling of utter defeat when I say "make me" and he says "nah" and walks away to do something else. It's when I say "I hate you I want a divorce" and he just laughs at me. Or when I say something worse and he KNOWS that I'll immediately double back and apologize profusely. It's hearing him say "that's more like it".

4. It's also me trying to help him come into his own as the d-type in our relationship. He's cultivating his inner 12th grade asshole for this, and goading him into being a bigger, meaner dick than I could ever have the heart to be is part of our goal. Sometimes that comes easier for him when he has something to respond to and build on.

KoPilot said:

Reviving this.

So out of curiosity, I did a thread search in BDSM Talk for "bratting", and here's what I found out of the first 65 posts (that's all the search function would give me) that aren't from self-identified brats, going all the way back to 2006:

Positive mention: 4 (13%)
Neutral mention: 15 (50%)
Negative mention: 11 (37%)

Seems pretty skewed to me.

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Why? Because people dont seem to like brats as much as you would like them to?

I bet if you did data on poop play, the results would be even more skewed. So what? If you have that one special person who enjoys the same thing you do, why does it matter what the rest of us think about it?

StrayKat said:

Why? Because people dont seem to like brats as much as you would like them to?

I bet if you did data on poop play, the results would be even more skewed. So what? If you have that one special person who enjoys the same thing you do, why does it matter what the rest of us think about it?

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Why does it matter what I think of it if you've already made up your mind about how much you hate brats? If you practiced what you preached, you'd be ignoring this thread.

KoPilot said:

Why does it matter what I think of it if you've already made up your mind about how much you hate brats? If you practiced what you preached, you'd be ignoring this thread.

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I was not hating on anything now. I was just asking why is that skewed.

If everyone who is against something would stop posting in threads about that thing, that would only leave those who are delighted about it to sing praises. Not much of a discussion eh? Or is that exactly what you would like?