Men now want women to be confident and make the first move

[Boxlicker101]

I don't get this disconnect, I swear. For every man I hear complaining about the lack of women, I hear three women saying they are lonely and overlooked.

So, what is it? What's your borderline of acceptablity, that's making some special girl invisible to you?

(I'm right with you on short, heavy, women being great in bed!)

Since you are a woman, men don't complain to you. They complain mostly to other men or on sites like this one. Right now, I am 68 years old, and happily married, so I am not looking. However, when I was in my thirties and had never ben married, every woman I approached was not interested in me. I used to read sometimes in various publications how women were lamenting the lack of eligible men, and I could never figure it out.

A few years ago, there was an article on the subject in "Forbes" magazine that said how there was such a lack of men. It was a crock.

ETA: The only borderline of acceptability I had was that she had to be female, over 18, and available.

 

[Liar]

I don't get this disconnect, I swear. For every man I hear complaining about the lack of women, I hear three women saying they are lonely and overlooked.

So, what is it? What's your borderline of acceptablity, that's making some special girl invisible to you?

So, women who can't find a man are overlooked, while men who can't find a woman are too picky?

Let me wager a guess and say that it works (or as it were, doesn't work) pretty much the same both ways.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Since you are a woman, men don't complain to you. They complain mostly to other men or on sites like this one. Right now, I am 68 years old, and happily married, so I am not looking. However, when I was in my thirties and had never ben married, every woman I approached was not interested in me. I used to read sometimes in various publications how women were lamenting the lack of eligible men, and I could never figure it out.

A few years ago, there was an article on the subject in "Forbes" magazine that said how there was such a lack of men. It was a crock.

ETA: The only borderline of acceptability I had was that she had to be female, over 18, and available.

Since I talk to as many men as women on the internet, you are wrong about who I listen to. You guys complain, I'm right here to hear you.

Why couldn't you figure out even though women were talking about it? Let me take a guess; because they were saying something that you felt didn't apply to you.

How much over 18 was okay with you?

Would you have dated a woman over 50? A good-looking, fairly fit 50-year old? (NOT me, by the way) Because, that seems to be the dead end on internet dating sites. 48-- weeeelll... maybe she'll be worthy of male perusal. 50-- sorry, he might be an overwieght, ratty-bearded, nebbish, but she's just too old.

So, women who can't find a man are overlooked, while men who can't find a woman are too picky?

Let me wager a guess and say that it works (or as it were, doesn't work) pretty much the same both ways.

You are forgetting the gender dynamics, liar. Men still assume the right to make the move, or make the veto.

There are plenty of forty-year-old women who will date a man ten years older than they are, but not many forty-year-old men who will date a women ten years older than they are.

 

[Liar]

You are forgetting the gender dynamics, liar. Men still assume the right to make the move, or make the veto.

The right to make the move? It's an expectation, and a frickin burden more than anything. I could just as well say that women assume the right to sit on their asses and be wooed.

There are plenty of forty-year-old women who will date a man ten years older than they are, but not many forty-year-old men who will date a women ten years older than they are.

Good point there though. Older woman younger man raises eyebrows, while the opposite is more or less normative. But is this because men looks for younger women or because women looks for older men?

By the shape of things, I'd say both.

 

[bwallard]

B came to my door in a snow storm with roses, a bottle of wine, and a card explaining why she was there.

I let her in, of course. She explained that she knew I would never move on her so she got it that she had to do it.

And didn't she do it so well! And wasn't I so happy because I'd never thought this gorgeous girl could like me.

I know this is an extreme example, but maybe part of what's going on is that women are learning how to come on to men. Well - hell - really, women have always initiated - through the invitation to approach.

This is problematic because so many men don't understand that they should wait for the invitation, and so many other men don't believe that wow that was actually an invitation. Or maybe he's not confident he could negotiate the maze of inevitable tests.

Women, we're told and mostly suspect, are generally more adept at managing the mood of situations so it might be best that women make their desires more direct.

One problem in this though is that although women may be better at coming on, once they get the trick of it, the bigger challenge is handling rejection.

In my experience, this does not go over well.

 

[Elianna]

I have been wanting this as a social norm my entire life. Although I bet I still don't ever get asked out

Will you go out with me, Thee?

 

[Le Jacquelope]

I don't get this disconnect, I swear. For every man I hear complaining about the lack of women, I hear three women saying they are lonely and overlooked.

Women are typically lonely and "overlooked" because they ignore large swaths of men. They won't date shorter men. Or younger men. Or "slackers".

Mind you, men marry / date women of all heights, ages, and even women who are slackers. Hell, we men put up with dating whiners ("all men are pigs! are you a pig?"), damsels in distress ("hep me! hep me! I'm drowning in bills! and I have no job!), slackers, high maintenance women ("does my dress make me look fat?"), and so on.

We men are far more forgiving than women are, of someone's faults.

I guarantee you, you send me any woman, I will find her a man who will try to date her in one hour. Tops. I'll take handicaps on that, too - only okay to good looking, clean cut, sane men with jobs living on their own - and taller than her, for sure. Her problem then will be that since she cannot see him as a good enough trade-up opportunity, she won't like him.

So, what is it? What's your borderline of acceptablity, that's making some special girl invisible to you?

(I'm right with you on short, heavy, women being great in bed!)

I am married to a woman in her 30s and she wasn't thin. She wasn't 200lbs either but she wasn't thin. I've dated 200+ lbs women before.

My borderline of acceptability had nothing to do with looks - it had to do with what was in her head.

I spent 30 years winning the dating game by mastering the woman's rules - until one day due to some mysterious unrelated incident, I got sick and landed in the hospital. I came out to find my employer's stock went to zero, the job was gone and everyone but me was dead broke and the tech bust had just started while I was in the hospital.

I also came out with the realization that I'd been conforming to women's rules for dating and had pissed away my best years of life letting women dictate what I got out of relationships. I gave women everything and was expected to want nothing back and to kiss her ass if I got anything. Every time I won the dating game, I lost, badly. She got her white knight fantasy and I got nothing more than she got from me in bed.

Then I saw "Titanic" on DVD and it hit me why this movie was so popular. That woman fucked up epically when she jumped out of the boat. The guy died to save her from her mistake, and then she got to live a nice full life while he was dead and never got to pass on his genes. THAT is why women loved that story - it was the fantasy of being loved by a man who would give his life to defend a woman from the consequence of her own mistakes. Women may deny that, but really, THAT is why Titanic was so popular. That was the final straw, but really, in that short span of a week, what came next was inevitable anyway - I just decided fuck it, I didn't want to date.

I lost all interest in sex. It cost me too much, and I'm not even talking about money.

I didn't feel valued as a human being.

Of course, I'm a Scorpio, and Scorpios never die (sexually), but when my sex drive came back, it came back with hard and fast rules: I wanted the respect I gave to women, I wanted to be treated equally. And after that, no woman had any "power of the pussy" with me. I treated her female charms as the smokescreen gimmegimmegimme scam that it was and that's when Miss Right filtered out.

I guess you can imagine what constitutes Miss Right for me... *ducks*
<rant off>

 

[Boxlicker101]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxlicker101
Since you are a woman, men don't complain to you. They complain mostly to other men or on sites like this one. Right now, I am 68 years old, and happily married, so I am not looking. However, when I was in my thirties and had never ben married, every woman I approached was not interested in me. I used to read sometimes in various publications how women were lamenting the lack of eligible men, and I could never figure it out.

A few years ago, there was an article on the subject in "Forbes" magazine that said how there was such a lack of men. It was a crock.

ETA: The only borderline of acceptability I had was that she had to be female, over 18, and available.

Since I talk to as many men as women on the internet, you are wrong about who I listen to. You guys complain, I'm right here to hear you.

I didn't say you wouldn't listen. I said guys wouldn't talk to a woman about it.

Why couldn't you figure out even though women were talking about it? Let me take a guess; because they were saying something that you felt didn't apply to you.

I don't think women have ever said anything to me personally about a lack of men. If they had, I would have almost laughed in their faces, or taken it as an insult, since I was available.

How much over 18 was okay with you?

When I was in my mid-twenties, I lived for a while with a short, fat woman who was the same age as my mother. She was female and available, so she met the criteria. When I finally married, at the age of forty, my wife was eight years older than I.

Would you have dated a woman over 50? A good-looking, fairly fit 50-year old? (NOT me, by the way) Because, that seems to be the dead end on internet dating sites. 48-- weeeelll... maybe she'll be worthy of male perusal. 50-- sorry, he might be an overwieght, ratty-bearded, nebbish, but she's just too old.

There aren't really that many women available on dating sites. I won't say there are none, but there are so many men that the woman have their choice.

You are forgetting the gender dynamics, liar. Men still assume the right to make the move, or make the veto.

There are plenty of forty-year-old women who will date a man ten years older than they are, but not many forty-year-old men who will date a women ten years older than they are.

As Liar said, men not only have that right, it is expected, even required, of them. Women have had the right to make the move, at least since the Sixties. Everybody has veto rights.

ETA: In all honesty, I should say that I am talking mostly about a time before Al Gore invented the internet. At the same time, there were dating services, and they had very few women available, so they didn't charge them anything for the service, or they charged them much less.

ETA again: I also want to say that "move" means more than just saying "Good morning." That's not a move; that's a greeting. It also means more than some mysterious sign language, such as twirling hair or smiling. It means actually speaking up, or otherwise making some overt move. Men are not mind readers.

 

[Edward Teach]

I am sure this has been going on for years. Straight men are and mainly have always been... cowards

Men don't know how to act anymore, Charley. Hold the door for one woman and you get laid but the next one shoots you in the nuts.

 

[JagFarlane]

There are a lot of factors that go into the whole dating thing, some are changes in the culture, some are instinctive influences. For this, I'll use myself and my father as examples.

Me
Age: 27
Occupation: Nuclear electrician, USN
Status: Single

Dad
Age: 54
Occupation: Project Manager
Status: On/off relationship

I'm generally the type of guy that is usually described as "the nice guy". When dating, I actually do desire a long-term relationship, and am faithful to my girlfriend. I put all I have into relationships, make the phone calls, make time for her, do the little romantic things, etc etc. What I've gotten in return from women: Lies, cheating, and general abuse.

How I've been described "The guy I want to marry, but not ready for a relationship right now." "You put 110% in, and I feel that I only put in 20%".

Reasons for my being single: Avoiding women due to past issues [see above], being too nice of a guy, or not looking like an Abercrombie bitch boy/boy band slut, women whom want a career and fear not having one due to a relationship

Now, culturally, especially showing in my generation, women are more devoted to building a career first, then marriage. Can't say I blame them, and I've seen this work out well later in life for many, as long as they don't put it off so long as to suddenly realize they're 40 and lonely. Personally, I am attracted to slightly older women, as they are a bit more stable and have a better idea what they want out of life.
Instinctively, studies generally show women desire the older man [exceptions are there, of course], due to the perceived ability to better care for her and their offspring. Women, often seem to go for jerks though, due to this desire to change them. The rebel is a celebrated figure in Americana culture [see: Fonzie and most rockstars]. Even read some romance novels, as the strong female lead "tames" the rebel man into learning to love and appreciate her, whilst still showing her adventures.

My father, on the other hand, has found himself in kind of a weird situation. He's 54, for the most part single, has a good paying job, a nice place, nice car, new boat, both sons have moved out [well, younger son lives with mom]. He's in decent to good shape, routinely works out, touch of grey but still mostly his natural color and full head of hair. The age range of women that are generally attracted to him is 40+. His problem? Many of them are single mothers, looking for someone to help them tend to their pre-teen to early 20' s children. His current on/off relationship, the woman barely makes a living, her 24yr old daughter lives at home with her, and she occasionally pushes to move into his place, whilst wanting him to financially help her daughter get out on her own. She's even gone so far as to suggest purchasing a condo for her daughter. He doesn't mind the income difference, but has grown quite tired of feeling like a paycheck to this women. Not that, generally, she is a bad person, quite the opposite, she's friendly, well mannered, and fun to be with.
This isn't the first time he's run into this issue. My ex-stepmom was similiar in nature. She found him as someone on the rise in the world, working very hard at improving himself, latched onto him, they got married, and bought a house "together". She had a pre-teen son and close to pre-teen daughter. Once we moved into the house, she began to make life hell on my brother and I, with full intentions that I was to move away to college [not that we could afford more than community college] and my brother was to move in with our mom.
So now, he's quite leery of women, particularly of the ones in their 40's and early 50's. Why? Because of past experiences. In truth, he has no issues with dating a woman his age, all he really wants is a partner in life. But he's gun-shy now.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Who, exactly, you competing for? The perfectly proportioned, blue-eyed blond with the pouting lips, flat stomach, perky breasts, who weighs about 120 pounds at 5'7"?

Because there's a woman nearby with thick black hair, and hazel eyes. She might weigh closer to 170, and stand 5'5". She has a round belly, round hips, heavy thighs. Her complexion is a little muddy, and her IQ is twice as high as yours.

Any takers?

Change the hair color to grey and I've been taking her for forty years. Yum!

 

[JagFarlane]

A little more thought on my age group.

As I've gotten older, I've watched the dating scene change, a lot, and honestly have started to classify women.

1) The post-college, I want a career woman. She is right now, steadily working on her career, but secretly believes she can find the right guy just before 30, settle down, have kids in her early 30's, but just isn't quite ready for that long-term relationship.

2) The late-20's, early 30's omg I've worked on my career and now my biological clock is alarming woman. She busted her ass, finally got comfortable in her career, now wants to get married and such, and pushes very, very hard for marriage. She generally seeks someone whom makes about the same or more than her, with desires to get married relatively quickly because her bio-clock is ticking heavily in her mind.

3) The I had fun in college, but so much that now I'm a single mom woman. She typically partied in college, had her fun, but is now a single mom. She wants a mature guy whom makes a decent paycheck/has a respectable career. Half of the time, though, she doesn't want anymore kids, as she may already have two or more, or one may be enough for her, so sorry nice guy, no kids for you. But, she expects you to love and raise her kids, within limits, remember, they're her kids. Oh and you may have to deal with the ranting of deadbeat dad, or deal with her ex visiting a lot for the kids.

4) The I got married early and am now divorced woman. Typically, she can be like the single mother above, and is typically like that woman. Or, she didn't have kids and just hates men and wishes to castrate them all. Other big issue, she's on the rebound, looking for acceptance, and when her confidence is back up, will leave you.

5) The I'm still partying and enjoying my 20's woman. She has no desire for a relationship, just wants to have fun with fuckbuddies.

There are a few more breakdowns, but those are the woman I typically find in my age group. There are many exceptions to these rules, but the percentage of women they represent is very small.

Go ahead, rip me to shreds for this, but this is the bare truth, not the ranting of random things, but an actual breakdown of how some of you women behave.

 

[JagFarlane]

Who, exactly, you competing for? The perfectly proportioned, blue-eyed blond with the pouting lips, flat stomach, perky breasts, who weighs about 120 pounds at 5'7"?

Because there's a woman nearby with thick black hair, and hazel eyes. She might weigh closer to 170, and stand 5'5". She has a round belly, round hips, heavy thighs. Her complexion is a little muddy, and her IQ is twice as high as yours.

Any takers?

Hmmm lets see, most of my girlfriends fit that description. Personally I tend to prefer the woman with a little meat on her bones, great for snuggles and I don't feel that I'll break her during sex. [oh and that also describes ex-stepmom, except more like 5'7" and 200lbs]
Oh, and if her IQ was twice as high as mine, not only is she in MENSA, she's also got a higher IQ than Stephen Hawkins. Personally, I prefer more intelligent women, conversations with the average intelligent woman go downhill very quickly, tried it once, didn't work out so well. Give me a woman with an IQ around mine [140-150] and I'm a happy duck in water.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Hmmm lets see, most of my girlfriends fit that description. Personally I tend to prefer the woman with a little meat on her bones, great for snuggles and I don't feel that I'll break her during sex. [oh and that also describes ex-stepmom, except more like 5'7" and 200lbs]
Oh, and if her IQ was twice as high as mine, not only is she in MENSA, she's also got a higher IQ than Stephen Hawkins. Personally, I prefer more intelligent women, conversations with the average intelligent woman go downhill very quickly, tried it once, didn't work out so well. Give me a woman with an IQ around mine [140-150] and I'm a happy duck in water.

No wonder you have trouble finding suitable dates. An IQ of 140+ is Gifted to Profoundly Gifted so you just eliminated 99% of the women on the planet.

 

[Maeve_redux]

How many women are prepared to do that, though, even in this day and age? I'd like to hear from ANY (straight) women who made the first move with their SO (not including the mr. populars that all the girls faun over and flirt with).

Late to the party, but... me! I was running a booth at an event and he started talking to me about my stuffs. It ended up we had quite a bit in common, and after everybody took a break for the evening meal, he and I got together with some common friends to play board games. Where I promptly sat on his lap and nearly knocked him over (literally) with a kiss.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Late to the party, but... me! I was running a booth at an event and he started talking to me about my stuffs. It ended up we had quite a bit in common, and after everybody took a break for the evening meal, he and I got together with some common friends to play board games. Where I promptly sat on his lap and nearly knocked him over (literally) with a kiss.

I had something like that happen with a junior (and very cute!) sergeant. Unfortunately, I was already married!

 

[JagFarlane]

No wonder you have trouble finding suitable dates. An IQ of 140+ is Gifted to Profoundly Gifted so you just eliminated 99% of the women on the planet.

Actually my biggest problem? I'm the "nice guy". The women that are attracted to me are either single mothers or women coming out of abusive relationships and want me to take care of them and their kids...

And now that we've got my mind going on this whole topic, some more food for thought:

The percentage of women vs men that have affairs is very close these days, however the percentage of women that have more than 2 affairs vs men is much higher, hmmm. Yet, the stigma that its the man who will cheat is still very much there.
The reasons for affairs vary. However, typically the men I see that have affairs are looking for one of two things, sex and actual love. A lot of times, when I hear a woman bitch about her husband having an affair, if you ask how often they had sex before the affair she will make a comment similiar to "I was angry with him so not so often, maybe once a month".
The second reason, actual love. This is common in both men and women for reasons to have affairs. When two people are together for a long time, they can become settled, and the romance slows as the day to day occurs. Both are to blame for this, the man for not continuing to pursue her heart, but the woman for ignoring him. The woman ignoring him typically occurs post-children. Once she has children, her focus will be on them, and the man tends to feel "left out". My father had an affair, yes, part of it was the sex and we'll get into that shortly, but his fondest memory of the affair, her waking up when he had to go to work, and spending 15-20min just sitting down with him as he had his morning cup of coffee. My mom? Oh she'd get up with the alarm, and go turn on the coffeepot then go right to bed. He missed conversation with her, even evenings, her idea of quality time was sitting on the bed watching tv while she knitted, and didn't talk.
The sex part? Well, see my dad routinely worked out, kept himself in good shape [flat stomach, defined pecs, well shaped legs, wore athletic cut suits etc] well into his 30's. My mom, she did the typical popped out a couple of kids, didn't bother to workout, and blamed her weight on children. Mind you, dad wasn't looking for her to look the same as when he married her, but when she weighed nearly as much as he did [around 200+lbs], it took a toll on the sexual desire.
Does he take blame for them drifting apart? Yes he does, will tell you bluntly that he didn't do his part in continuing to pursue her and make her feel special. It took some counseling for him to understand that, but these are lessons learned that I hope someone takes to heart.

 

[Maeve_redux]

I had something like that happen with a junior (and very cute!) sergeant. Unfortunately, I was already married!

Shame, isn't it? Could have been fun.

OK, after having actually read the entire thread now (miracles do happen), it occurs to me that there's something missing from the conversation here. What about the women who are just as 'clueless' as men are when it comes to the subtle signs?

Taking myself as an example just because it's easy: I was raised by my dad. Period. He's a good man, and did what he could with me, but never taught me how to be girly. That was a little beyond his reach. What he DID teach me was how to be honest and straightforward with my dealings. To speak my mind when the need arose, and hold my tongue when it was wiser to keep quiet. He taught me that being blunt is a good thing and that couching some of what was said in softer language to smooth over something that could turn nasty can be a good idea. Basically, he taught me to be the best man he could make me.

All this has more or less turned against me in the whole dating/mating world. It's seen as a direct interest when I look people in the eye when talking to them. Usually not so much. That's something I was taught is both a sign of respect and polite. A good, strong, manly thing to do.

Dad taught me how to hold my own in a conversation. If the topic is something I know about, you bet your ass it can go on for hours. Sometimes literally all night. If it's something I don't know about but am interested in, questions can easily be formulated, drawing out the conversation for a long time. According to most men, having an interest in what they say for that amount of time is reason to believe a girl is sexually interested. This is not necessarily the case. (I've had intelligent conversations with Amicus, for goodness sakes, and there's certainly no attraction there!)

I was taught to have a very self-deprecating sense of humour. And, being a solid capricorn, it extends to everybody else. It's not fishing for compliments. It's not trying to cut people down. It's just there.

Self-sufficiency is something else that I strive for. I don't want to have to depend on some guy to provide for me. Or for anybody else in my family. If deep pockets were so desireable, there would be no reason to stick with somebody for six years who made less than $25k a year (to support five people), or to keep with somebody who hasn't been able to get a contract for over a year and a half. But because of the struggle to stay above water, that's seen as one of the main reasons for 'flirtation' with some men. Even if there IS no flirting - see the whole eye contact and conversation thing.

There's this, and so much more. When you add them all up it comes down to the fact that people are putting these 'subtle signs' of flirtation and interest where they don't belong. I've had people come up and flat tell me I was flirting hard with somebody before, when all that was going on was a conversation. I clearly remember one in particular, because it was a particularly animated conversation, complete with wild hand gestures and a few shared laughs - about a TV show.

On the other side of that is the fact that if normal behaviour is evidently a string of these 'subtle signs' it makes it impossible for a person to know if they're sending them out or not. Or if somebody's trying to flirt, and we're just not picking up on it, because it's what we've always been taught to do.

 

[Maeve_redux]

Actually my biggest problem? I'm the "nice guy". The women that are attracted to me are either single mothers or women coming out of abusive relationships and want me to take care of them and their kids...

And now that we've got my mind going on this whole topic, some more food for thought:

The percentage of women vs men that have affairs is very close these days, however the percentage of women that have more than 2 affairs vs men is much higher, hmmm. Yet, the stigma that its the man who will cheat is still very much there.
The reasons for affairs vary. However, typically the men I see that have affairs are looking for one of two things, sex and actual love. A lot of times, when I hear a woman bitch about her husband having an affair, if you ask how often they had sex before the affair she will make a comment similiar to "I was angry with him so not so often, maybe once a month".
The second reason, actual love. This is common in both men and women for reasons to have affairs. When two people are together for a long time, they can become settled, and the romance slows as the day to day occurs. Both are to blame for this, the man for not continuing to pursue her heart, but the woman for ignoring him. The woman ignoring him typically occurs post-children. Once she has children, her focus will be on them, and the man tends to feel "left out". My father had an affair, yes, part of it was the sex and we'll get into that shortly, but his fondest memory of the affair, her waking up when he had to go to work, and spending 15-20min just sitting down with him as he had his morning cup of coffee. My mom? Oh she'd get up with the alarm, and go turn on the coffeepot then go right to bed. He missed conversation with her, even evenings, her idea of quality time was sitting on the bed watching tv while she knitted, and didn't talk.
The sex part? Well, see my dad routinely worked out, kept himself in good shape [flat stomach, defined pecs, well shaped legs, wore athletic cut suits etc] well into his 30's. My mom, she did the typical popped out a couple of kids, didn't bother to workout, and blamed her weight on children. Mind you, dad wasn't looking for her to look the same as when he married her, but when she weighed nearly as much as he did [around 200+lbs], it took a toll on the sexual desire.
Does he take blame for them drifting apart? Yes he does, will tell you bluntly that he didn't do his part in continuing to pursue her and make her feel special. It took some counseling for him to understand that, but these are lessons learned that I hope someone takes to heart.

Jag, it seems both your mother and your father were just... typical. Or perhaps a little less than spectacular to each other.

Speaking from experience, a woman is just plain tired after taking care of kids all day. A little extra rest usually helps immensely - at least until they're all in school. And, yes, it's easy for most women to keep a little of the extra weight. Not saying it's an excuse to hit the 200 pound mark (depending on height), but I can see it from her end. And, honestly, it can be difficult to carry on an adult conversation after dealing with the younguns for months at a time. So she was typical for turning into an overweight little housfrau - and very likely having issues with her self esteem and things of that nature because of it.

Your father being typical comes from... well, having the affair. Did he ever ask her to come out and sit with him while he had breakfast? Or ask what her day was like? Did he ever ask her to go work out with him? Probably not. Which is typical of most men. It's just easier to go find something else, something "better" on the side than to make that effort.

It seems blame should be on either both of them or neither of them.

Now, on the practical(ish) side of things, I've been to the point of having an affair. And did. My reason was that it's simply impossible to have a relationship with somebody who will not talk to you except to insult and hurt, who is very rarely home and watching tv when they are, and will not touch you. Period. I fully accept a partial responsibility for some of this and have for a long time. It's just the way it was. You know what I was looking for out of it? Sex and actual love. Just like the 'most men' you spoke of. So do most of the other women who have affairs. We're just seen as sluts and whore, and it's not accepted as readily as when men have the affairs.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Shame, isn't it? Could have been fun.

OK, after having actually read the entire thread now (miracles do happen), it occurs to me that there's something missing from the conversation here. What about the women who are just as 'clueless' as men are when it comes to the subtle signs?

Taking myself as an example just because it's easy: I was raised by my dad. Period. He's a good man, and did what he could with me, but never taught me how to be girly. That was a little beyond his reach. What he DID teach me was how to be honest and straightforward with my dealings. To speak my mind when the need arose, and hold my tongue when it was wiser to keep quiet. He taught me that being blunt is a good thing and that couching some of what was said in softer language to smooth over something that could turn nasty can be a good idea. Basically, he taught me to be the best man he could make me.

All this has more or less turned against me in the whole dating/mating world. It's seen as a direct interest when I look people in the eye when talking to them. Usually not so much. That's something I was taught is both a sign of respect and polite. A good, strong, manly thing to do.

Dad taught me how to hold my own in a conversation. If the topic is something I know about, you bet your ass it can go on for hours. Sometimes literally all night. If it's something I don't know about but am interested in, questions can easily be formulated, drawing out the conversation for a long time. According to most men, having an interest in what they say for that amount of time is reason to believe a girl is sexually interested. This is not necessarily the case. (I've had intelligent conversations with Amicus, for goodness sakes, and there's certainly no attraction there!)

I was taught to have a very self-deprecating sense of humour. And, being a solid capricorn, it extends to everybody else. It's not fishing for compliments. It's not trying to cut people down. It's just there.

Self-sufficiency is something else that I strive for. I don't want to have to depend on some guy to provide for me. Or for anybody else in my family. If deep pockets were so desireable, there would be no reason to stick with somebody for six years who made less than $25k a year (to support five people), or to keep with somebody who hasn't been able to get a contract for over a year and a half. But because of the struggle to stay above water, that's seen as one of the main reasons for 'flirtation' with some men. Even if there IS no flirting - see the whole eye contact and conversation thing.

There's this, and so much more. When you add them all up it comes down to the fact that people are putting these 'subtle signs' of flirtation and interest where they don't belong. I've had people come up and flat tell me I was flirting hard with somebody before, when all that was going on was a conversation. I clearly remember one in particular, because it was a particularly animated conversation, complete with wild hand gestures and a few shared laughs - about a TV show.

On the other side of that is the fact that if normal behaviour is evidently a string of these 'subtle signs' it makes it impossible for a person to know if they're sending them out or not. Or if somebody's trying to flirt, and we're just not picking up on it, because it's what we've always been taught to do.

Hmmm . . . Y'know, I think I married someone very much like you. Hot Mama has for years maintained that she has a more typically 'male' brain. She thinks linerally, is organized and logical (when she's not exhausted) and is never 'coy' about what she wants. She may simply forget to tell me, but she never plays the hint-game. I'm grateful, very grateful. Being Asperger's I have even less capability to ferret out hidden meanings than more normal men. Pity polygamy hasn't been legalized, yet . . .

 

[JagFarlane]

Jag, it seems both your mother and your father were just... typical. Or perhaps a little less than spectacular to each other.

Speaking from experience, a woman is just plain tired after taking care of kids all day. A little extra rest usually helps immensely - at least until they're all in school. And, yes, it's easy for most women to keep a little of the extra weight. Not saying it's an excuse to hit the 200 pound mark (depending on height), but I can see it from her end. And, honestly, it can be difficult to carry on an adult conversation after dealing with the younguns for months at a time. So she was typical for turning into an overweight little housfrau - and very likely having issues with her self esteem and things of that nature because of it.

Your father being typical comes from... well, having the affair. Did he ever ask her to come out and sit with him while he had breakfast? Or ask what her day was like? Did he ever ask her to go work out with him? Probably not. Which is typical of most men. It's just easier to go find something else, something "better" on the side than to make that effort.

It seems blame should be on either both of them or neither of them.

Now, on the practical(ish) side of things, I've been to the point of having an affair. And did. My reason was that it's simply impossible to have a relationship with somebody who will not talk to you except to insult and hurt, who is very rarely home and watching tv when they are, and will not touch you. Period. I fully accept a partial responsibility for some of this and have for a long time. It's just the way it was. You know what I was looking for out of it? Sex and actual love. Just like the 'most men' you spoke of. So do most of the other women who have affairs. We're just seen as sluts and whore, and it's not accepted as readily as when men have the affairs.

A little background info to clear things up [thank you for reminding me what I forgot].

When the affair occurred, I was 11yrs old, my brother was 8yrs old. Mom, had gone back to work a couple years beforehand, and was now working fulltime 9-5 job as a receptionist/in training as a computer tech. This, also, was years after both of us were born, obviously, and she had gained weight mostly because of the fact that she just sat around, but hey that was her choice. Conversation wise, honestly, she spent more time with adults

It should also be noted, a lot of the household chores had been passed onto my brother and I. In order to get my allowance of $4 a week, I did the vaccuming, dusted, did laundry, mowed the back lawn, and helped out with dinner [starting meals if it was like spaghetti or tending to the crockpot, small things like that]. Meals, though, really weren't much of an issue because they shared duties, when Dad was home for dinner, he often cooked. He also did a lot of household chores and such when he was on nightshifts.

I also did say, that Dad does admit that he was at fault as well, for not "courting her" during their marriage.

Now, can romance remain in a relationship over a period of time? Hell yes it can. Example, my grandparents. They lived, oh the typical relationship of their time, she cooked and kept house and well...lol he kept out of her hair. When she went into the hospital for knee replacement surgery, his families biggest concern was how would he survive the week and a half of her being gone for rehab. It was bad enough, that different members of the family came to visit a couple of nights to ensure he was ok and not lonely.
He...would drive everyday the hour to get to the hospital, spent lunchtime with her, then drove home. Consisted himself mostly on takeout and learned to use the microwave and coffeepot [yea it was THAT bad LOL]. However, when she finally came home, she came home to a spotless house, and a big bouquet of red roses and a mushy card welcoming her home.

 

[Stella_Omega]

shit, formatting these discussions...
Since I talk to as many men as women on the internet, you are wrong about who I listen to. You guys complain, I'm right here to hear you.

I didn't say you wouldn't listen. I said guys wouldn't talk to a woman about it.[/quote]yeah, but when we all talk online, I hear exactly what their friends hear.

Why couldn't you figure out even though women were talking about it? Let me take a guess; because they were saying something that you felt didn't apply to you.

I don't think women have ever said anything to me personally about a lack of men. If they had, I would have almost laughed in their faces, or taken it as an insult, since I was available.

But you aren't available now... So, would you laugh in their faces now?

How much over 18 was okay with you?

When I was in my mid-twenties, I lived for a while with a short, fat woman who was the same age as my mother. She was female and available, so she met the criteria. When I finally married, at the age of forty, my wife was eight years older than I.

yay, for one more anecdote against my theory! See, I am hoping and wishing for that.

Would you have dated a woman over 50? A good-looking, fairly fit 50-year old? (NOT me, by the way) Because, that seems to be the dead end on internet dating sites. 48-- weeeelll... maybe she'll be worthy of male perusal. 50-- sorry, he might be an overwieght, ratty-bearded, nebbish, but she's just too old.

There aren't really that many women available on dating sites. I won't say there are none, but there are so many men that the woman have their choice.

I wonder why my friend isn't getting many hits than? The guys she's heard from tell her that, even though she's too old, they are desperate. And she is good-looking, trim, intelligent. forty-nine.

You are forgetting the gender dynamics, liar. Men still assume the right to make the move, or make the veto.

There are plenty of forty-year-old women who will date a man ten years older than they are, but not many forty-year-old men who will date a women ten years older than they are.

As Liar said, men not only have that right, it is expected, even required, of them. Women have had the right to make the move, at least since the Sixties. Everybody has veto rights.

ETA: In all honesty, I should say that I am talking mostly about a time before Al Gore invented the internet. At the same time, there were dating services, and they had very few women available, so they didn't charge them anything for the service, or they charged them much less.

ETA again: I also want to say that "move" means more than just saying "Good morning." That's not a move; that's a greeting. It also means more than some mysterious sign language, such as twirling hair or smiling. It means actually speaking up, or otherwise making some overt move. Men are not mind readers. [/QUOTE]Man, this sucks, doesn't it?

 

[rgraham666]

I've been wary about making a move ever since a girl gagged when I asked her out in high school. Then another suitor bounced my head off a locker.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Quote:
Originally Posted by human_male
How many women are prepared to do that, though, even in this day and age? I'd like to hear from ANY (straight) women who made the first move with their SO (not including the mr. populars that all the girls faun over and flirt with).

I'm not a straight woman but, in my case, my first wife made the first move. We were married in 1980, when she was 48 and I was 40, and she died of a stroke four years later. In 1987, I married for the second time. We met through a dating service named Yellow Phone, and she was about eight months younger than I was. She died from a heart attack after seven years of marriage.

I married for the third time a year later. She is a couple of months younger than I, and we met through a personals ad that I placed in the local newspaper. We recently celebrated 13 happy years of marriage. By the way, I am no Bluebeard. My first two wives died, but my current wife was also a two-time widow.

One nice thing about using a dating service or answering personal ads is that there is a lack of coyness. Both persons are interested, or they wouldn't have gotten together in the first place, so they don't pretend otherwise. That doesn't mean that people will always hit it off, but it does mean that there is a chance they will.

 

[Maeve_redux]

A little background info to clear things up [thank you for reminding me what I forgot].

When the affair occurred, I was 11yrs old, my brother was 8yrs old. Mom, had gone back to work a couple years beforehand, and was now working fulltime 9-5 job as a receptionist/in training as a computer tech. This, also, was years after both of us were born, obviously, and she had gained weight mostly because of the fact that she just sat around, but hey that was her choice. Conversation wise, honestly, she spent more time with adults

It should also be noted, a lot of the household chores had been passed onto my brother and I. In order to get my allowance of $4 a week, I did the vaccuming, dusted, did laundry, mowed the back lawn, and helped out with dinner [starting meals if it was like spaghetti or tending to the crockpot, small things like that]. Meals, though, really weren't much of an issue because they shared duties, when Dad was home for dinner, he often cooked. He also did a lot of household chores and such when he was on nightshifts.

OK, so all of this makes it a little bit different. But working on people who are often deskbound for 8 or 9 hours a day has made me realise that it really is HARD for them to lose weight and/or keep it off when they're not active. And sitting behind a desk really is a lot of inactivity.

I also did say, that Dad does admit that he was at fault as well, for not "courting her" during their marriage.

You also said it took a LOT of talking to get him to admit it. But kudos to him for getting to that point.

Now, can romance remain in a relationship over a period of time? Hell yes it can. Example, my grandparents. They lived, oh the typical relationship of their time, she cooked and kept house and well...lol he kept out of her hair. When she went into the hospital for knee replacement surgery, his families biggest concern was how would he survive the week and a half of her being gone for rehab. It was bad enough, that different members of the family came to visit a couple of nights to ensure he was ok and not lonely.
He...would drive everyday the hour to get to the hospital, spent lunchtime with her, then drove home. Consisted himself mostly on takeout and learned to use the microwave and coffeepot [yea it was THAT bad LOL]. However, when she finally came home, she came home to a spotless house, and a big bouquet of red roses and a mushy card welcoming her home.

My guess would be that, in this case, they also respected each other. They knew which one was better at what, and left them to do it. And I bet they both worked hard to keep it that way.