Thoughts on NoTalentHack's essay "Loving Loving Wives"

[madelinemasoch]

Funny, I would consider it disturbing that you wouldn't justifiably kill someone who for example uses the machinery of gun-armed state to steal children from their father just so the cheater is happier. That shows a level of both misandry AND indifference to child's well being (as well as societal at larger level) that is unparalleled in its cruelty and lack of empathy. Yes, some things deserve capital punishment. Not a lot of them. But not an empty list.

Isn't this "why we have a court system"? The solution to that isn't KILLING, it's negotiating a fair custody deal...

 

[inka2222]

I did read your reply. You said that some percentage of cheating situations justify murdering the cheater.

Maybe you can enlighten those of us who don't have your clear-eyed morals: under what circumstances is it okay to murder your cheating spouse?

Sure, my 3 immediate examples would be:

1. A spouse who deliberately uses the machinery of the state to take away children from another parent - in my mind that's a capital offense (and don't try to weasel out by throwing rare examples of abusive parents or people who have shared custody - I'm specifically talking about egregious cases of insisting on sole custody and no visitation where the father is a decent parent who did nothing wrong - often accompanied by false accusations of abuse; plentiful in LW stories). To be clear, the justification for killing here is not so much "for punishment" and more "to keep the kids" - a basic human right.
   1. Just to be clear, I'm perfectly happy if access to the kids is restored via less violent means. The violence is only justified absent any other solution. As a matter of fact, in LW story, my FAVORITE type is "self-karmic-BTB", where a cheater doing this; ends up doing something super stupid and ends up in jail, thus restoring the kids to the victim. Again, it's about the end, not the means - however this specific end is severe enough to justify even extreme means if required.
2. A severe and intentional literal cuckolding (making a man spend his life raising someone else's child with the wife KNOWING it isn't his - especially if accompanied by refusing to have his own kids). This is LITERALLY akin to murdering a man, in evolutionary sense. She denied him a basic human right to reproduce his genes; on TOP of all the other offenses like fraud/theft, emotional harm etc... In this case the motive is more punitive than in #1, but the offense is much greater.
3. Forcing (direct violence, or via coercion such as threat of "or i will divorce you and take your kids away") him into sexual cuckolding situation. I don't see it any differently from rape/coerced sex - and I consider rape to be a capital offense. And yes, before you disingenuously ask, I would cheerlead (and have) and upvote any story where the rapists get offed. There aren't that many on LE, but those that exist ALL got 5 stars and cudos comment from me. And yes, legally AND morally if you force someone by blackmail, it's still rape, even if no violence was involved.

 

[Lifestyle66]

Funny, I would consider it disturbing that you wouldn't justifiably kill someone who for example uses the machinery of gun-armed state to steal children from their father just so the cheater is happier. That shows a level of both misandry AND indifference to child's well being (as well as societal at larger level) that is unparalleled in its cruelty and lack of empathy. Yes, some things deserve capital punishment. Not a lot of them. But not an empty list.

First off, that wouldn't be capital punishment, it would be murder, since (as you said) the "gun-armed state" took the children from the father. His subsequent murder of their happier mother or her lover wouldn't be looking out for the childrens' well-being.

That's a narcissistic psychopath's view of the world.

 

[Red_Herring4]

Sure, my 3 immediate examples would be:

1. A spouse who deliberately uses the machinery of the state to take away children from another parent - in my mind that's a capital offense (and don't try to weasel out by throwing rare examples of abusive parents or people who have shared custody - I'm specifically talking about egregious cases of insisting on sole custody and no visitation where the father is a decent parent who did nothing wrong - often accompanied by false accusations of abuse; plentiful in LW stories). To be clear, the justification for killing here is not so much "for punishment" and more "to keep the kids" - a basic human right.
   1. Just to be clear, I'm perfectly happy if access to the kids is restored via less violent means. The violence is only justified absent any other solution. As a matter of fact, in LW story, my FAVORITE type is "self-karmic-BTB", where a cheater doing this; ends up doing something super stupid and ends up in jail, thus restoring the kids to the victim. Again, it's about the end, not the means - however this specific end is severe enough to justify even extreme means if required.
2. A severe and intentional literal cuckolding (making a man spend his life raising someone else's child with the wife KNOWING it isn't his - especially if accompanied by refusing to have his own kids). This is LITERALLY akin to murdering a man, in evolutionary sense. She denied him a basic human right to reproduce his genes; on TOP of all the other offenses like fraud/theft, emotional harm etc... In this case the motive is more punitive than in #1, but the offense is much greater.
3. Forcing (direct violence, or via coercion such as threat of "or i will divorce you and take your kids away") him into sexual cuckolding situation. I don't see it any differently from rape/coerced sex - and I consider rape to be a capital offense. And yes, before you disingenuously ask, I would cheerlead (and have) and upvote any story where the rapists get offed. There aren't that many on LE, but those that exist ALL got 5 stars and cudos comment from me. And yes, legally AND morally if you force someone by blackmail, it's still rape, even if no violence was involved.

I'm going to stop engaging here. I suspect (perhaps wrongly) that something traumatic happened in your life to generate this level of anger. If so, I'm truly sorry for your pain and I hope that you are able to get the help you need to process your feelings.

 

[inka2222]

I'm going to stop engaging here. I suspect (perhaps wrongly) that something traumatic happened in your life to generate this level of anger. If so, I'm truly sorry for your pain and I hope that you are able to get the help you need to process your feelings.

Nope, I just have a strong moral compass and I hate criminals hurting people and getting away with it. I held this view since very early age and nothing traumatic influenced it (other than witnessing socialism first hand, unlike most of you left wingers in the West). But thanks for the ad-hominem, it means you have no reasonable argument against.

 

[inka2222]

First off, that wouldn't be capital punishment, it would be murder, since (as you said) the "gun-armed state" took the children from the father. His subsequent murder of their happier mother or her lover wouldn't be looking out for the childrens' well-being.

That's a narcissistic psychopath's view of the world.

No, the gun-armed state wasn't the decision maker (just like in organized crime, the trigger man is actually LESS morally culpable than the boss who gives the order to triggerman; or the way Nurenberg trials actually convicted people who personally didn't kill anyone - they just made underlings do it).

No, narcissistic psychopaths are wives who do this and the man-hating cheerleaders of this behavior like you. As I VERY explicitly stated, if you (as an author) find such behavior by the wife objectionable, you (as the author) have 100% freedom to use any non-violent means to restore justice. Have her fuck up and lose custody. Have the BF dislike child care and convince her to return the kids to the father. Have the both be lost in a boat crash in the middle of the ocean, surviving but out of contact. Hell, have a (totally hard to sell) attack of consciousness and have her decide to change her mind and give shared custody post-factum. There are 1000 solutions. If you choose not to, that says more about you as an author, than about my reaction to your choice as a reader.

 

[MillieDynamite]

These are only stories, and writing about something doesn't mean we support it. People get away with murder all the time in the real world. We write fiction for entertainment. You're putting far too much importance on the fiction, like all the moral outrage over video games causing violence in the real world; there isn't anything in statistics to support the findings. Fiction does not a real crime create.

Nope, I just have a strong moral compass and I hate criminals hurting people and getting away with it. I held this view since very early age and nothing traumatic influenced it. But thanks for the ad-hominem, it means you have no reasonable argument against.

 

[inka2222]

Isn't this "why we have a court system"? The solution to that isn't KILLING, it's negotiating a fair custody deal...

Sure. I'm 100% with you on that. If you bother reading what I wrote, I EXPLICITLY said, that the goal is access to kids for father, by ANY means - and yes legal one is preferrable (as it is less risky if for no other reason). The case where I feel violence is warranted is very specifically the last resort scenario where nothing else worked; for example where the wife (usually fraudulently, via false abuse reports, at least in typical LW story, but likely in real life too) forces her SOLE custody - with no or minimal access - on unwilling father who did nothing wrong in reality; because in modern US family court system men are guilty until proven innocent. Or less nefariously, uses the fact that the father can't even afford a legal representation while her rich BF can pay for fancy lawyers - we both know US courts require money to succeed in many cases.

 

[Lifestyle66]

Sure, my 3 immediate examples would be:

1. A spouse who deliberately uses the machinery of the state to take away children from another parent - in my mind that's a capital offense (and don't try to weasel out by throwing rare examples of abusive parents or people who have shared custody - I'm specifically talking about egregious cases of insisting on sole custody and no visitation where the father is a decent parent who did nothing wrong - often accompanied by false accusations of abuse; plentiful in LW stories). To be clear, the justification for killing here is not so much "for punishment" and more "to keep the kids" - a basic human right.
   1. Just to be clear, I'm perfectly happy if access to the kids is restored via less violent means. The violence is only justified absent any other solution. As a matter of fact, in LW story, my FAVORITE type is "self-karmic-BTB", where a cheater doing this; ends up doing something super stupid and ends up in jail, thus restoring the kids to the victim. Again, it's about the end, not the means - however this specific end is severe enough to justify even extreme means if required.
2. A severe and intentional literal cuckolding (making a man spend his life raising someone else's child with the wife KNOWING it isn't his - especially if accompanied by refusing to have his own kids). This is LITERALLY akin to murdering a man, in evolutionary sense. She denied him a basic human right to reproduce his genes; on TOP of all the other offenses like fraud/theft, emotional harm etc... In this case the motive is more punitive than in #1, but the offense is much greater.
3. Forcing (direct violence, or via coercion such as threat of "or i will divorce you and take your kids away") him into sexual cuckolding situation. I don't see it any differently from rape/coerced sex - and I consider rape to be a capital offense. And yes, before you disingenuously ask, I would cheerlead (and have) and upvote any story where the rapists get offed. There aren't that many on LE, but those that exist ALL got 5 stars and cudos comment from me. And yes, legally AND morally if you force someone by blackmail, it's still rape, even if no violence was involved.

1. After the courts have ruled on custody, any violent retaliation against the winning spouse is not in the best interests of the kids. Regardless of the right versus wrong committed by or between the adults, the kids are merely pawns being used and abused by BOTH parents in the on-going squabbles and any violence!

2. A literal cuckolding requires the consent of the abused husband. Unless he is chained to a wall and forced into slavery, any on-going support to raise her kids is his own choice out of other options including just walking away and disappear.

3. Blackmail is one of those areas where two wrongs just make another worng. Blackmail doesn't really work against an innocent person. It's usually those who have done something wrong who are blackmailed to continue hiding their secrets from others to maintain their more public image the blackmail "victim" is a just and righteous person.


The main reason for rating and ENCOURAGING authors to continue cranking out their stories of all kinds of relationships would be to study, think, and learn from all of the various options in human behaviors. Thus, I never HATE any story which demonstrates behaviors I don't like. It's just a different view of another life out of the 8 billion on the planet, and mostly just as valid as any other.

(I only HATEd a story once or twice, when it was a quickly thrown together bunch of words with no spell or grammar checks and had no particular plot or ending.)

... you (as the author) have 100% freedom to use any non-violent means to restore justice. ...

So, this sounds like you want to continue to believe in Santa Claus, and (Heaven Forbid!) ever take a look at real life.

You want and expect authors to only crank out your fairy tales.

 

[inka2222]

victim of what?! What was the first BTB author a victim of?

Of being harassed criticized and downvoted by man-hating pro-cheating crowd.

I think they thought the description does the job. They were partially right (some people got the joke) and partially wrong (others didn't). Sounds comparable to the response to any story posted there, imo.

No proof, but I bet you if you poll 10000 random LE readers, a vast majority who don't have direct experience with LW category would get the wrong impression and NOT get the joke. I know I didn't even KNOW that swinging and such were in scope for LW until couple of years after starting to read, because I was following specific authors I liked who don't write swinging stories.

There wasn't a "cheating drama" category until the first time a story like that was written and published there. Hence why I said we have the first BTB author to blame.

Actually, I'm pretty sure the first actual "cheating drama" not simply far preceded the first BTB, but actually masqueraded as a swinging or supposed-voluntary-cuck story; except that one of the participants was a spouse coerced into it by threat of divorce and losing kids. Which may sounds "sexy" to some people I guess - but you can say the same about NC stories. I have my own view of such people's moral compass. Regadless, THAT story was the first "cheating drama" story. It just snuck in.

LW evolved into what it is today because authors made certain decisions and then readers did the same.

I strongly suspect that the decisions were largely shaped by available categories, hence me blaming LE management. Things in life evolve to respond to conditions and incentives.

 

[inka2222]

I just don't understand why those who share your story preferences--which are fine with me, by the way--don't simply ignore the other types of stories you don't like. It's pretty easy to do. It's usually very obvious early on, especially if you look at the tagline and tags, to tell what kind of story it is and steer clear of it if it's not your cup of tea. I don't get the "pooping on other people's fun" attitude that so many have toward the cuckold and hot wife stories.

They do, in most cases. Where the problem arises, is where the stories have a moral aspect to them, as opposed to "pineapple pizza yes or no" preference; in very explicit terms, when the story events negatively impact a victim character. Which is why I seriously doubt anyone would ever downvote or emotionally react to an "anal" story, or two-adult-siblings incest story, or even swinging story (wanna bet that swinging stories with 100% consenting adults and no coercion have much lower level of disliking than cheating or cuck LW stories?). Your right to "fun" stops when your "fun" hurts other people. And propagandizing evil behavior such as cheating is hurtful. I suspect people would have been 1-bombing NC stories too if they were not separatd into a separate category, for the same reason. Yes they are "fun"/"hot". But they are so at the expense of hurting someone.

 

[inka2222]

In my opinion, tags don't mean as much, because you're only getting those who search for those tags.

Actually, you're at least partially wrong. A lot of blame here is on site design. I was a user for years, and up until 2 months ago, I wasn't even aware you can view story tags on first page (a small unlabeled icon), without having to read the FULL story and see the tags on last page near the voting stars. And I'm pretty computer literate and LIKE playing with UIs and settings. I bet VERY VERY few readers are aware they can get the story's tags before reading. If story tags were on page 1, before the story, and auto-expanded, I suspect the level of mutual dislikes in LW would decrease meaningfully.

It's actually pretty easy to test - take your story and post a first-paragraph disclaimer indicating any potentially contentious content. I know I nearly universally avoid downvoting reconciliation stories if the author honestly warned me in first paragraph that it would be reconciliation. I don't dislike them any less, but I find it ethically objectionable to downvote a story I had a free choice to avoid reading.

 

[SimonDoom]

Your right to "fun" stops when your "fun" hurts other people. And propagandizing evil behavior such as cheating is hurtful.

What reason do you have to believe this? I see absolutely no reason to believe that wives come to Literotica, read stories about cuckolding, and think, "That sounds great! I'm going to do that to my husband." That sounds utterly daft to me. These are harmless, silly fantasies, that occur in a funny little Literotica cocoon, and I think people who think that these stories somehow teach "lessons" that will have harmful impacts in the world are absolutely deluding themselves. And I don't just believe this about this category; I think it's true of other categories as well.

I write incest stories--always about consenting adults. I don't advocate incest. I don't think any sane, mature reader would interpret my stories as "propaganda" for adult incest. I don't understand this attitude at all.

 

[lc69hunter]

You are not wrong. Funny thing, though? Commenters don't seem to like it too much, but voters don't really care. My kinkiest entry in there, After the Future is Gone (DD/lg, anal, rough sex, breeding, discussed but not seen impact play, implied group at the end) is my second highest scoring.

I kind of agree with you there. There have been some fairly good stories published in LW lately, some I even rated a 5, but the last one I read that was worthy of being saved as a favorite was over four months ago.

 

[joy_of_cooking]

literal cuckolding requires the consent of the abused husband. Unless he is chained to a wall and forced into slavery, any on-going support to raise her kids is his own choice out of other options including just walking away and disappear.

I don't want to take sides on this but I feel obligated to point out that the father might simultaneously feel obliged to continue supporting these children (who bear no blame for their birth and might be much worse off without him) and also resent the wife for putting him into this situation. Maybe you would call that consent, but... Seems murkier to me.

(For the record I wouldn't advocate he kill the wife in this scenario. In case that needs to be said.)

 

[AchtungNight]

Actually, you're at least partially wrong. A lot of blame here is on site design. I was a user for years, and up until 2 months ago, I wasn't even aware you can view story tags on first page (a small unlabeled icon), without having to read the FULL story and see the tags on last page near the voting stars. And I'm pretty computer literate and LIKE playing with UIs and settings. I bet VERY VERY few readers are aware they can get the story's tags before reading. If story tags were on page 1, before the story, and auto-expanded, I suspect the level of mutual dislikes in LW would decrease meaningfully.

It's actually pretty easy to test - take your story and post a first-paragraph disclaimer indicating any potentially contentious content. I know I nearly universally avoid downvoting reconciliation stories if the author honestly warned me in first paragraph that it would be reconciliation. I don't dislike them any less, but I find it ethically objectionable to downvote a story I had a free choice to avoid reading.

You always have a free choice to avoid reading. And shaming.

Reading your previous posts, I see you count the denial of a man’s right to pass on his genes as equivalent to murder. That’s a bit extreme.

Where do you stand on biological fathers not bothering to fulfill their duties and more honorable stepfathers stepping up? (Shaq O’Neil’s situation and mine, I also know a guy who had his stepmother turn out better than his mom.) I still acknowledge my biological father as such, but leave it at that.

 

[NoTalentHack]

I don't want to take sides on this but I feel obligated to point out that the father might simultaneously feel obliged to continue supporting these children (who bear no blame for their birth and might be much worse off without him) and also resent the wife for putting him into this situation. Maybe you would call that consent, but... Seems murkier to me.

(For the record I wouldn't advocate he kill the wife in this scenario. In case that needs to be said.)

So, I have written two (and am working on a third) LW story that ends in murder, none of them leaving the spouse dead, but all of them leaving her worse off in some way. In the first, it was for a noir story, and it's clear (I hope) the guy snapped after finding out the last 10 years of his life was a lie. In the second, the husband murders a billionaire that had destroyed dozens of marriages playing a sick game, justifying it as philanthropy. And in the third (a nod to the Cask of Amontillado), he's clearly been driven mad by the end of the story by unrelentingly cruel and illegal treatment.

But I've also written stories where a long-term cheater and their partner reconciled, and ones where they went their separate way, and where a "burn" on the level of a prank was played, etc. etc. Those vastly outnumber the murdery ones for me, and I think that's correct. Regardless of how the story twists and turns, it's not advocating for any of these outcomes in real life, nor do I think that the people writing NC/R (or making horror movies, or action movies, or crime movies, etc.) are doing so.

Cheating stories, swinging stories, revenge stories, sharing stories, love stories, post-divorce moving on stories: they all, and more, have a place in LW. That's part of why I like it. And while I do include tags, I think that's spoiler enough; I made the mistake of posting a spoiler up at the top once, I think, and that was quite enough for me.

 

[inka2222]

everyone always says "LW is full of haters",

I haven't read your stories but do they involve either humiliation, or less-than-willing participants, or generally portraying male subs as sub-human and extreme cruelty inflicted on them; or especially cuckolding? If so, the problem isn't "BDSM" or "LW", it's that people find things that you like morally objectionable, and victimizing males.

For similar reception, most normal modern females would react badly to predominantly-female-victim NC stories of the violent variety (as opposed to erotic ones where the damsel ends up enjoying herself and the story is more of a bodice-ripper or CNC than true NC)

This could be a long list.
The haters really don't like the interracial aspect, most of the time, even though in my first story this wasn't an issue for anyone. It could be that they themselves are racially prejudiced. Part of this is character-author confusion, part of it is just general annoying bad reading lumped in with a turbulent society outside. Basically I write "whiteboys aren't men" (because they're women/feminized now/not masculine enough) and these few hating readers go "see? the author is racist," as if I'm saying they're subhuman. It's... really fucking weird.

You haven't presented any evidence that you are NOT saying that. You're the author, you literally have 100% choice of what/how to write. If you didn't think so, you would either not portray them as such, OR portray your characters who treat them as such, as negative ones. If your story's hero is a literal rapist and story revolves around rape, you DO sound like rape supporter.

There is an absolute absence of certain things in my stories that I've currently published: #1 white men having penetrative sexual intercourse in which they are the penetrator, #2 cis women being submissive to anyone other than a black bull, and #3 an utterly heartless monster of a woman who just up and leaves the cuck she's cheating on. I think the complete absence of these things make my stories "difficult to relate to" (slim and shy way of putting it, but let's go with that phrasing) for certain readers. If you know what I'm saying.

The fact that you think "certain" readers object to it, instead of most normal people, says a lot more about you than the readers. As your average scores attest to. Here's a hint, if everyone is so racist, why are romantic IR stories with black male/white female mostly pulling AT LEAST 4 stars and better ones easily top 4.5 stars? Why are most of BlackRand's stories of any category (100% of which feature extremely NOT submissive black women, most of them explicit kick-ass Alpha types) rated at close to 5 stars? Must be that all the supposed "racists" ONLY read your stories, since you're such a central author on the site. Or MAYBE, the objections are to you being anti-white dehumanizing man hater, and not to the stories having a black man?

3. I think some of them are uncomfortable with female sexual dominance

Double bullshit. Look at ratings of any non-man-hating femdom stories. (as easy search, look for sensual femdom). Again, most are at least 4 stars and many closer to 5 stars. Heck i'm a Dom kink wise, and I happily upvote well written femdom stories despite them having zero kink value for me, just for good writing. Stop blaming the readers for what you delusionally imagine in their brains, and start looking in the metaphorical mirror. Approach this scientifically and look at stories featuring similar things to yours which you THINK people object to, but without the hateful angles.

and/or cuckoldry in general(?)

THERE, you are correct. Many people are like me, and find cuckoldry to be morally objectionable - a rare 100% willing participant likely has a mental health issue and needs mental health help, not abuse; for less willing participants it's closer ethically to NC stories. Additionally, ANYTHING involving humiliation and sub-human treatment automatically raises red flags even in consensual context, even for kinky people.

And cuckoldry has a major major darkside context, since at its core, it's about removing a man's human right to propagate his genes. For a female equivalent, imagine a scifi story where a woman is forced to remove all her eggs, implanted with a "better" woman's eggs instead, and forced to carry and birth and care for that other woman's babies, while not having her own. Still think it's "hot"?

But I don't really know how far this goes. How long can one hate-read another that intensely? Most people who don't like that stuff simply wouldn't read me at all, I would assume...

I don't tend to bother with this on LE (impact is too little vs. expended effort) but I definitely saw people serially downvoting objectionable creators on other platforms, and I admit I have participated in that occasionally.
But I WILL 1-bomb any forced cuckolding or dehumanization or explicitly racist story (with hate for ANY race), on principle, without reading, and without caring who the author is. Chances are, your problems are a combo of "all your stories are of that type" so you get to be a target of both people who dislike the TYPE, as well as occasional serial downvoter, in your case seemingly motivated by reasonable dislike.

4. One very common reproach I have received is that my femdom quote-unquote "reads as abuse." /// From my own point of view as the author, I just don't see why one of those would be at all necessary. It's self explanatory to me, like, wouldn't you do the same thing and get on your knees for a woman who looked like that?

Your man hating flag is showing, lady (using the term loosely). The assertion that a man would undergo emotional torture (and in stories like yours, usually physical) just because you think your looks make you better than everyone else is reprehensible to the extreme. The fact that you think a woman who would inflict such torture (emotional and physical) for no valid reason other than selfish personal satisfaction, is a positive character, is why people not only hate your stories, but identify you with them. This isn't even real BDSM, where BOTH parties get something out of S/m dynamics and actively seek the bad treatment because they genuinely want it. The fact that you don't see a difference between "get on your knees" and "be emotionally tortured" is frankly disturbing to me, as someone who's in the lifestyle.

Why do they need some tertiary reason to stay together when this is how they like to be together in the first place?

Because most mentally sane men wouldn't LIKE this. Men aren't wired that way, naturally. So what's realistically keeping him there is either some form of coercion (even if it is as "simple" as emotional blackmail of the "if you love me you will do this thing you hate"); or literal blackmail (if he objects he loses his family in divorce), or he's mentally ill. Yes, there probably is a tiny minority of men who actually genuinely seek out such treatment. But they are as mentally unwell as self-cutters.

How would a reasonable person react to the situation where a mentally disturbed self-cutter woman is under control of supposed "Dom" who encourages her to self-cut because it's fun, he can and she has an unhealthy emotional attachment to him? That's right, we would label him as an asshole abuser and assert she needs mental health help, send her to an abused women's shelter etc... We would NOT make him out to be a delightful protagonist who is worthy of admiration because he's soooo good looking.

This is especially true of Matty and Eleanor; it really works for them, and I've "explained" why in the text (through showing, not really telling) but those very same ignorant comments keep coming in... commenters are being dumb

I'm tempted to read the story, but given what you posted so far, I suspect the "explanation" would be just as man-hating as the preceding reasoning, so not worth my time. The fact that you blame "ignorance" and "you don't understand me" on the audience instead of yourself as a writer, is telling.

I think people can go a longer way into "sexualized violence" than other writers (especially on here, it seems) generally agree with–of course I mean, enjoying the sexualized violence, taking pleasure not in spite of but because of pain.

There's a big difference between "enjoy the pain" and "forced to endure the pain because you're emotionally attached to the sadist, and coerced at worst". Also, there's a big difference between physical pain (which normal healthy people DO and CAN enjoy for valid biochemical and brainy reasons), extreme physical torture; and emotional torture (which usually requires mental health issues to "enjoy", and usually it's not enjoyment but unhealthy dependency, from self-hating or depressed individual). As someone who literally had to save subs with mental health issues by ordering them into therapy, I VERY CLEARLY know the difference. The difference between a decent person and an awful abuser like your "protagonist" is just that. A decent person's FIRST care and concern is well being of their sub, including mental health. NOT abusing their emotional and mental issues to satisfy my own cruelty.

 

[inka2222]

I think you are right about the age. I can’t see anyone under - say - 50 stating that lesbianism is “deviancy” and that we want to “convert” their women and “normalize [our] sick lifestyle.”
EDIT: by “anyone” I mean “anyone on a sex site”

I'm not saying "nobody would say that", but do you honestly believe if this was ANYTHING but a super tiny vocal minority, every single lesbian story would have been bombed out into the floor (as opposed to average rating being 4 stars based on my surface observations). There's at least 2 authors in LW who post tons of lesbian sex stories as part of their series. None of those has bad ratings. Matter of fact most NON-CHEATING lesbian stories on LW (as in, just a threesome where all consent) usually have pretty high ratings unless they are just garbage quality wise.

 

[inka2222]

Yeah, I miswrote that. That is what I meant, that they particularly like or don't like what you're doing. Thinking faster than typing.

Yes, it's called Amazon comments effect. MOST comments on Amazon reviews are complaints, even for items with 10K ratings where average rating is above 4.5. People are far more motivated to do stuff when unhappy than when content. That's what I've been trying to explain to some people on here, but when you see 15 harsh comments, it's emotionally difficult to get that it's 15 people out of 1500 readers (as random example), less than 1% of your readership of the story. Because 1450 of those readers didn't bother commenting - and probably many didn't even vote.

 

[AchtungNight]

Yes, it's called Amazon comments effect. MOST comments on Amazon reviews are complaints, even for items with 10K ratings where average rating is above 4.5. People are far more motivated to do stuff when unhappy than when content. That's what I've been trying to explain to some people on here, but when you see 15 harsh comments, it's emotionally difficult to get that it's 15 people out of 1500 readers (as random example), less than 1% of your readership of the story. Because 1450 of those readers didn't bother commenting - and probably many didn't even vote.

That’s exactly why votes are off on all of my stories. The vast majority of my readers aren’t voting at all. I can feel more satisfied from my work from good feedback without leaving a hate vehicle in play. Which is what you’ve reduced the voting system to by abusing it this way.

 

[Andrew1968]

I find the below wording from inka2222 to be so exciting. I would be so hopelessly in love with a woman who was prepared to do something like that to me and did do something like that to me. I would be enthralled and spellbound. For a wife to do something like that to a husband – that’s so amazing and so beautiful. I’m frankly and unapologetically attracted to women who are self-centered, will-full, and prepared to orchestrate things and people to get what they want.

I know the above will confuse and anger many and that’s fair enough. It’s a FANTASY which is not mainstream and not appealing to most and that's okay as well. However, the fantasy exists nonetheless and shouldn’t be repressed, and the players involved in the fantasy shouldn’t be punished. If it doesn’t appeal to you, then fair enough, but why should one group of complete strangers on the internet "civilian police" the sexual fantasies of another group of complete strangers on the internet.

Anyway, here is inka2222’s wording. I have amended certain parts of it, so it fits my worldview. I don’t like physical violence.

‘A severe and intentional literal cuckolding (making a man spend his life raising someone else's child with the wife KNOWING it isn't his - especially if accompanied by refusing to have his own kids). This is LITERALLY akin to murdering a man, in evolutionary sense. She denied him a basic human right to reproduce his genes; on TOP of all the other offenses like fraud/theft, emotional harm etc...

Forcing (via coercion such as threat of "or i will divorce you and take your kids away") him into sexual cuckolding situation.’

The rage of the BTB crowd won’t make any difference at all. Cuckolding/hot-wife fantasies will not be repressed.

 

[inka2222]

You always have a free choice to avoid reading. And shaming.
Reading your previous posts, I see you count the denial of a man’s right to pass on his genes as equivalent to murder. That’s a bit extreme.

It isn't if you consider the major point of life to be passing on your genes (as opposed to posting comments on LE

For somewhat contrived example, imagine a woman had her husband deliberately replace her eggs (using some fictional technology) with his mistress's eggs, and had her raise mistress's babies. Do you feel he didn't commit any major offense, denying her the right to have her own kids?

Where do you stand on biological fathers not bothering to fulfill their duties

Morally, I find them disgusting and reprehensible. As a matter of fact, while I absolutely HATE modern family laws in 2023 as man-hating, I will gladly admit that in 1940s, they were both necessary and morally just, because at that time the TYPICAL average situation was a single earner father running off with his secretary, leaving SAHM with kids and no income to support them. As far as I'm concerned, that should be a jailable offense. Same for fuckboys who leave kids on single moms (often multiple) these days. Jailable offense.

and more honorable stepfathers stepping up? (Shaq O’Neil’s situation and mine, I also know a guy who had his stepmother turn out better than his mom.) I still acknowledge my biological father as such, but leave it at that.

Make a fucking medal for the stepfather. Admirable both on personal and social level. Also, in many cases, he's unfortunately a sucker and the woman is a hustler victimizing him. But that doesn't diminish the man's value, as a person AND a member of society. Matter of fact, if I was raised by someone other than my biological sperm donor, I would LITERALLY consider that man my father and the sperm donor that, sperm donor (absent mitigating circumstances of course).

I admit I would probably find it difficult to choose to do this myself (pay for some other dude's kid) - especially since as a taxpayer I already do for a bunch; with one notable exception. If the child's father was someone like military/first responder and died in the line of duty, I would DEFININTELY have zero qualms about stepping into that role if I was interested in the kid's mom romantically. That is one case where both the child and the mother AND the deceased father clearly bear zero blame, zero bad choices, and should be supported by everyone to the best extent possible. Heck, my only worry would be "could I possibly live up to the responsibility".

 

[Bramblethorn]

Sure, my 3 immediate examples would be:

1. A spouse who deliberately uses the machinery of the state to take away children from another parent - in my mind that's a capital offense (and don't try to weasel out by throwing rare examples of abusive parents or people who have shared custody - I'm specifically talking about egregious cases of insisting on sole custody and no visitation where the father is a decent parent who did nothing wrong - often accompanied by false accusations of abuse; plentiful in LW stories). To be clear, the justification for killing here is not so much "for punishment" and more "to keep the kids" - a basic human right.

"In your mind" doesn't make it so.

This is a scenario that would be considered criminal homicide (murder or possibly manslaughter, depending on the circumstances) in just about any country on earth. Even if the killer were able to prove that the murdered parent had fabricated accusations of abuse in order to usurp custody, this wouldn't be considered justifiable homicide; the expectation there is that they'd use that evidence to appeal the custody decision, not to resort to violence.

The suggestion that this could be justified as a matter of "to keep the kids" makes no sense, because it's not actually going to restore access to the kids. If your ex has convinced a court that you're an abuser who shouldn't be allowed any contact with your own kids - something which takes some doing - your ex's death isn't going to make the court decide that suddenly you're an okay person who should have custody. It's far more likely that they'll award custody to some other relative or put the kids into foster care while still refusing you contact.

1. 1. Just to be clear, I'm perfectly happy if access to the kids is restored via less violent means. The violence is only justified absent any other solution. As a matter of fact, in LW story, my FAVORITE type is "self-karmic-BTB", where a cheater doing this; ends up doing something super stupid and ends up in jail, thus restoring the kids to the victim. Again, it's about the end, not the means - however this specific end is severe enough to justify even extreme means if required.
2. A severe and intentional literal cuckolding (making a man spend his life raising someone else's child with the wife KNOWING it isn't his - especially if accompanied by refusing to have his own kids). This is LITERALLY akin to murdering a man, in evolutionary sense.

lol no it's not.

You're trying to excuse actual murder by making up spurious concepts like "murder in an evolutionary sense" and pretending that these are equivalent to murder and therefore it's acceptable to kill to prevent these things. This is nonsense.

Nobody has a moral obligation to help you pass on your genes. The woman who refuses to provide you with a womb to gestate your baby is not "murdering" you; she's just exercising her own right to not have your baby. If every woman on earth chooses not to have your baby, you still haven't been murdered.

If somebody pretends to want children with you and then deceives you about her choices, that's certainly reprehensible behaviour. But it's still not murder.

Even if we pretended that preventing a man from passing on his genes was somehow a form of murder, killing a cheating partner wouldn't actually constitute legitimate self-defense, because... killing a person doesn't make them have your babies. The proportionate redress there is to break up with them and try to find somebody else who does want to have your babies.

1. She denied him a basic human right to reproduce his genes;

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights does recognise the right to "marry and found a family". But this doesn't mean that anybody else is obligated to help you exercise that right; it just means that if you can find a consenting adult who does want to do those things with you, your government shouldn't be blocking that option.

Trying to interpret this in terms of "right to reproduce his genes" gets absurd very quickly. For instance, it implies that a high-fertility guy who cuckolds his low-fertility brother is actually doing him a favour.

(Hmm, there's a story idea...)

Nope, I just have a strong moral compass and I hate criminals hurting people and getting away with it.

This is a very easy position to take if we get to make up our own definitions of concepts like "criminals" and "murder".

 

[Bramblethorn]

It isn't if you consider the major point of life to be passing on your genes (as opposed to posting comments on LE

For somewhat contrived example, imagine a woman had her husband deliberately replace her eggs (using some fictional technology) with his mistress's eggs, and had her raise mistress's babies. Do you feel he didn't commit any major offense, denying her the right to have her own kids?

"Major offense" is not the same as "murder", which is the term you were using and the one @AchtungNight was replying to.