Loving wives: From violence to murder-suicide

[TheCommenter]

Hi all,

I've been reading LE, and LW in particular, for a pretty long time and I have noticed a worrying trend.

Older stories contain the usual amount of violence a European (like me) expects from US-based entertainment: Some flying fist, a couple of baseball bats, an occasional threat with a gun. But the newer the stories get, the more often you read about the cheated on husband committing assault.

This has since slowly morphed to murder. Of course, the ingenious husband always gets away with it.

Then towards the end of last year, more and more often, suicides appeared at the end of the stories. On 11/09/23, I commented on a "February sucks"-story by Norseman123, that

"The LW-authors have now definitely moved on to this "honorable suicide"-scenario. I'll never understand this American(?), conservative(?), male (?) desire for martyrdom but each his own. I guess in a short while we'll start reading about murder-suicides..."

And, as predicted, today I read the first story that made just that: "Thunder rolls" by waif. The comments so far are all appreciative, praising the terrorist.

Maybe it's my European perspective but most male MCs in LW seem to be white, conservative males. Is this really what this group of people want? Vigilantism, violence, and murder-suicides?

 

[onehitwanda]

I'm surprised it made it through censorship, to be honest.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I'm surprised it made it through censorship, to be honest.

Seriously?

 

[onehitwanda]

Seriously?

Yeah. I had a story bounced back for an underage kiss, and death is a disallowed tag on story submission, but murder?

Anyway, lets not turn this thread into something that will wind up in politics.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

Death and murder aren't allowed as tags, but are allowed as part of plots - as long as no-one is getting off from them. At least in the story. Who knows about the LW audience.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Yeah. I had a story bounced back for an underage kiss, and death is a disallowed tag on story submission, but murder?

Anyway, lets not turn this thread into something that will wind up in politics.

I had the same issue with an underage hard-on, but I also find myself incredulous at some stories that managed to "slip through" with snuff, racism, you name it... With the exception of AI and underage - and even here I've seen some slip through by omitting the numerical age yet referring to the girl as so small and tiny that it couldn't possibly be anything except a child, I'd say that there is so much stuff that gets published that goes against Lit policies. It's the same old problem with manpower, so I am hardly surprised about any content that gets published.

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

Ooooooh, is it already time for the bi-monthly thread where everyone gets to complain about the downfall of LW? I honestly don't see what's wrong with the story.

I actually had a discussion about this with another author just a few days ago. If you write about betrayal, either you allow the faulted character some means to maintain their agency, or they'd have to fall into depression. Naturally, most stories then end up with the usual power-fantasies and clichés of the MC turning out to be some retired army specialist, or secret agent, or has connections to drug cartels owing him a favor, or whatever else they come up with to let the MC keep their sanity.

There are hundreds, if not thousands of stories on here where a character is being utterly and completely broken. The only unusual thing about this one is that said character then neither gets off on the humiliation nor has any means to turn their life around. So, he reacts like a human being in the real world would. You don't have to like it. But I also don't see how this is in any way concerning.

 

[lovecraft68]

Yeah. I had a story bounced back for an underage kiss, and death is a disallowed tag on story submission, but murder?

Anyway, lets not turn this thread into something that will wind up in politics.

Yes, let's ignore a thread that proves the LW category is allowed to glorify violence against women and sexualize violence. Why should we discuss a category that is portraying hatred as a kink?

What's the saying, if you ignore it, you're supporting it? Don't worry Wanda, Laurel will still post your stories even if you're not happy with something here.

 

[onehitwanda]

Don't worry Wanda, Laurel will still post your stories even if you're not happy with something here.

Thanks, I was worried about that!

 

[lovecraft68]

[No personal attacks or trolling - including creating accounts for this specific purpose. Heated discussions are fine, even welcome. However, personally attacking / kink-shaming a fellow author or reader is not allowed within the Author's Hangout. Threads which devolve into the exchanging of insults will be closed and repeat offenders will be given a timeout, per the AH rules.]

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

I'll say this slowly for you.....this is an EROTIC CATEGORY therefore anything in it, intentionally or not, is sexualizing its content. Putting as story like this in Novels and Novellas works, putting it in any category representing a kink means the author, and many of the readers are seeing it as erotic.

That's the problem. These lunatics get off to this, why is that hard for you and the other defenders of these slugs to understand that?

Mate... I think you need to stop making assumptions like that. You seem to struggle to understand how humans work.

I wonder if all these stories featured brutality aimed at husbands and men if you'd have the same opinion? I doubt it. Reverse most of the BTB stories and the man babies would report them and they would get pulled. This site wants traffic and the incels and woman haters are coming here in droves, know why? Because no other site will allow this material, at least not in an erotic category. Why? Because they actually care about enforcing their rules.

Like Wanda said, have a 16 year old get their first kiss and it's a kick back, gang rape torture and murdering someone in LW flies right on through. Yeah, nothing off about that.

But, if it's that important to you, let me get a stuffed puppet. Use it to show me where the bad story touched you.

 

[lovecraft68]

[No personal attacks or trolling - including creating accounts for this specific purpose. Heated discussions are fine, even welcome. However, personally attacking / kink-shaming a fellow author or reader is not allowed within the Author's Hangout. Threads which devolve into the exchanging of insults will be closed and repeat offenders will be given a timeout, per the AH rules.]

 

[NoTalentHack]

Hi all,

I've been reading LE, and LW in particular, for a pretty long time and I have noticed a worrying trend.

Older stories contain the usual amount of violence a European (like me) expects from US-based entertainment: Some flying fist, a couple of baseball bats, an occasional threat with a gun. But the newer the stories get, the more often you read about the cheated on husband committing assault.

This has since slowly morphed to murder. Of course, the ingenious husband always gets away with it.

Then towards the end of last year, more and more often, suicides appeared at the end of the stories. On 11/09/23, I commented on a "February sucks"-story by Norseman123, that

"The LW-authors have now definitely moved on to this "honorable suicide"-scenario. I'll never understand this American(?), conservative(?), male (?) desire for martyrdom but each his own. I guess in a short while we'll start reading about murder-suicides..."

And, as predicted, today I read the first story that made just that: "Thunder rolls" by waif. The comments so far are all appreciative, praising the terrorist.

Maybe it's my European perspective but most male MCs in LW seem to be white, conservative males. Is this really what this group of people want? Vigilantism, violence, and murder-suicides?

I've seen the reverse; if you draw a graph showing the amount/intensity/frequency of violence in the category, it would show a slow ramp up until the mid 2010s, when it explodes (hah, sorry), then slopes back downwards over time with the occasional blip up.

I read the story you mentioned from earlier today, a 750 word story that it looks like it's since been pulled since; I expect it got reported for violence. That happens sometimes, and I think this story was right on the edge of good taste in that respect, although I saw it for what I think it was intended as: a story about a broken person pushed too far and did something unthinkable precisely because he's broken.

He's not presented as particularly heroic; even his military service is presented as something he did to earn a living. He's just a dude who's gone through more than anyone should, mostly at the hands of a bully that's targeted him his whole life, and has nothing left to live for except revenge. It's a ridiculous... I wouldn't even call it a power fantasy, because it DOES end with his death, and no one would want to be that guy, but something in that neighborhood. It also bears about as much relation to reality as the stories where every guy has an eight inch dick and every woman 38FFFs.

I'll be honest: I kind of found it less offensive than the stories where the only offense that the two "villains" commit is simple adultery, and the "hero" still engages in absolutely ridiculous revenge scenarios, with or without violence. In those, the guy is presented as some moral paragon for going to the lengths he does over what, except for the legal ramifications, is really just a bad breakup. I'd much rather have a story where the people involved are presented as broken for doing these things--both the ridiculousness of the offenses and the reaction of the MC--than "wife cheated on me? Better get my ax handle."

I've presented endings with both murder and suicide in LW; the former where the MMC is put into one of those WTAF types of scenarios and/or the villains are such unrepentant scumbags (or both) that the "hero" snaps, and the latter where it's established he has a long history of mental illness. I expect I will again; they can make for really good drama. But that's what they are: drama. That's all they are.

 

[TheCommenter]

If you write about betrayal, either you allow the faulted character some means to maintain their agency, or they'd have to fall into depression. Naturally, most stories then end up with the usual power-fantasies and clichés of the MC turning out to be some retired army specialist, or secret agent, or has connections to drug cartels owing him a favor, or whatever else they come up with to let the MC keep their sanity.

Turning the MC into some powerful ultra-rich douche isn't what bothers me. I get that. Stories don't have to be realistic. Turning a minimum wage worker into a millionaire is the American dream.

The only unusual thing about this one is that said character then neither gets off on the humiliation nor has any means to turn their life around. So, he reacts like a human being in the real world would. You don't have to like it. But I also don't see how this is in any way concerning.

So you're saying that it's normal to commit murder just because feelings got hurt? isn't that a bit snowflakey?

 

[Abdelkaoolomocro]

I am sorry, what do the abbreviations Lw, Le and mc mean?

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

Turning the MC into some powerful ultra-rich douche isn't what bothers me. I get that. Stories don't have to be realistic. Turning a minimum wage worker into a millionaire is the American dream.



So you're saying that it's normal to commit murder just because feelings got hurt? isn't that a bit snowflakey?

I guess you didn't have a chance to read the story before it was pulled. But yes, it is normal for people to turn to murder if they are physically, financially, and socially ruined and have absolutely no recourse left to save or even defend themselves. When they have absolutely nothing left to live for, it's very easy to develop a desire for revenge and make the "baddies" pay for what they did.

 

[TheCommenter]

I read the story you mentioned from earlier today, a 750 word story but it looks like it's since been pulled since; I expect it got reported for violence. That happens sometimes, and I think this story was right on the edge of good taste in that respect, although I saw it for what I think it was intended as: a story about a broken person pushed too far and did something unthinkable precisely because he's broken.

He's not presented as particularly heroic; even his military service is presented as something he did to earn a living. He's just a dude who's gone through more than anyone should, mostly at the hands of a bully that's targeted him his whole life, and has nothing left to live for except revenge. It's a ridiculous... I wouldn't even call it a power fantasy, because it DOES end with his death, and no one would want to be that guy, but something in that neighborhood. It bears about as much relation to reality as the stories where every guy has an eight inch dick and every woman 38FFFs.

I wasn't trying to critique the story itself. Liking or not liking it doesn't play into my question, at all. But nevertheless, I do agree with your assessment.

I've seen the reverse; if you draw a graph showing the amount/intensity/frequency of violence in the category, it would show a slow ramp up until the mid 20102, when it explodes (hah, sorry), then slopes back downwards over time with the occasional blip up.

Obviously, our experiences differ. I'm still of the opinion that cold blooded murder as a reaction of the cheated on has increased. Also, the number of suicides has gone up. And the story that sparked my post was the first I read of a suicide bomber (as the MC). I admit that I haven't made a thorough statistical analysis to support my argument, though.

 

[NoTalentHack]

Hate is not a kink, if you feel it is, you're the one with the problem. Stay behind the keyboard while others live in the real world.

So, given that you're the only one saying that the type of LW stories you deride are kinky, what does that say? Because I've got 30-odd stories in LW, most of them involving at least an element of revenge, and a few with violence. On not a single one of those has someone said, "this is so hot," except in regards to the stories where there is actually an element of eroticism involved. I have never, in my entire time reading in there, seen a single comment where someone said the revenge content was hot, or they were masturbating to it, or anything similar; every story I've got in another category, someone has stated that at least once. The anons are not shy about saying what they get off on, either; I think we all know that.

Literally no one but you thinks people are getting off to these types of LW stories. That's not what they're there for. I think you even know that, because you go back and forth between "people are getting off to these" and "this isn't an erotic category, so why are people putting non-erotic stories here?" The funny thing is that you know that even the latter is a disingenuous statement, because you've previously given carveouts to other categories saying, "Well, there's non-erotic content in those, too, but that's because... reasons."

For the record, other categories that, like LW, are ostensibly erotic but have a solid number of high-rated non-erotic stories in them:

Erotic Horror
Humor & Satire
Lesbian Sex
NonHuman
Novellas
Romance
Sci-Fi

Not to mention all the categories like Non-Erotic, Reviews and Essays, etc. Hell, you can even find a few in places like Interracial! Erotic stories might be the norm in categories, but pretending that they're all you can find there is just bullshit, especially for someone who's been around and involved for so long.

Stop trying to disguise your distaste for the stories as something other than what it is: your distaste for the stories (or, possibly, that they do actually arouse you, and that makes you feel bad... which it probably should, but I'm not going to judge). It's tiresome, and it's dishonest. You can do better than this.

 

[TheCommenter]

I am sorry, what do the abbreviations Lw, Le and mc mean?

LW: Loving wives. One of the categories.
LE: Literotica
MC: Main Character

 

[TheCommenter]

Literally no one but you thinks people are getting off to these types of LW stories.

Considering the intensity of the replies when there's a reconciliation or the burn isn't brutal enough, one might assumes that the anons are to busy getting off to comment when the violence and hate are stronger.

 

[NoTalentHack]

I wasn't trying to critique the story itself. Liking or not liking it doesn't play into my question, at all. But nevertheless, I do agree with your assessment.

Fair. But I do think that critiquing the existence of violence in stories without discussing the nature of the violence and its role in the story (along with the characters, lot, etc.) makes for an unhealthy discourse.

To use an example unrelated to this one, back in the 80s, there was a group called the PMRC (Parents Music Resource Center) that called for labeling music with "sexual, violent, or occult themes, or which include drug and alcohol use." Now, where one falls on that subject, I'm not going to get into that much; most musicians seemed to think that it turned out to be a massive waste of time, because all labeling did was normalize the things the PMRC were against, but that's neither here nor there.

What I do want to talk about is how they tried to achieve their goals. They took songs like "Suicide Solution," an anti-suicide song, and took sections of the lyrics out of context. Same thing with "We're Not Going to Take It," claiming that it was a call to violence. John Denver, for god's sake, had to defend "Rocky Mountain High" as not being a pro-drug song.

You can find a bunch of other examples, but you get the point: divorcing elements of a story from their context makes for bad criticism.

Obviously, our experiences differ. I'm still of the opinion that cold blooded murder as a reaction of the cheated on has increased. Also, the number of suicides has gone up. And the story that sparked my post was the first I read of a suicide bomber (as the MC). I admit that I haven't made a thorough statistical analysis to support my argument, though.

I will agree that suicides in LW stories have gone up, but I think that might have to do with a larger social move. It's way, way more common for younger people to joke about suicide or death in general as a positive thing. A common punchline now, when something like the DPRK nuking the US or Russia starting WWIII in Ukraine and killing us all is something like, "Can we get started now? Then I can miss my shift at work." It's not surprising that it would leak out into other stories, too; hell, in Hunger Games, one of the most popular young adult novels of all time, the main character plans a murder suicide/double suicide as a way to shake her fist at the powers that be.

 

[NoTalentHack]

Considering the intensity of the replies when there's a reconciliation or the burn isn't brutal enough, one might assumes that the anons are to busy getting off to comment when the violence and hate are stronger.

I assure you, if they were, they'd let us know. I don't have a single story with erotic content that someone hasn't told me that it gets them going, even if, as in the case of a couple of my darker stories, it makes them feel a bit ashamed. If people were jacking it to BTB stories, they'd tell us, even if only in anonymous comments.

 

[Abdelkaoolomocro]

LW: Loving wives. One of the categories.
LE: Literotica
MC: Main Character

Thank you. Gonna loop up loving wives.

 

[Lovecraft_Lore]

I've seen the reverse; if you draw a graph showing the amount/intensity/frequency of violence in the category, it would show a slow ramp up until the mid 2010s, when it explodes (hah, sorry), then slopes back downwards over time with the occasional blip up.

I read the story you mentioned from earlier today, a 750 word story that it looks like it's since been pulled since; I expect it got reported for violence. That happens sometimes, and I think this story was right on the edge of good taste in that respect, although I saw it for what I think it was intended as: a story about a broken person pushed too far and did something unthinkable precisely because he's broken.

He's not presented as particularly heroic; even his military service is presented as something he did to earn a living. He's just a dude who's gone through more than anyone should, mostly at the hands of a bully that's targeted him his whole life, and has nothing left to live for except revenge. It's a ridiculous... I wouldn't even call it a power fantasy, because it DOES end with his death, and no one would want to be that guy, but something in that neighborhood. It also bears about as much relation to reality as the stories where every guy has an eight inch dick and every woman 38FFFs.

I'll be honest: I kind of found it less offensive than the stories where the only offense that the two "villains" commit is simple adultery, and the "hero" still engages in absolutely ridiculous revenge scenarios, with or without violence. In those, the guy is presented as some moral paragon for going to the lengths he does over what, except for the legal ramifications, is really just a bad breakup. I'd much rather have a story where the people involved are presented as broken for doing these things--both the ridiculousness of the offenses and the reaction of the MC--than "wife cheated on me? Better get my ax handle."

I've presented endings with both murder and suicide in LW; the former where the MMC is put into one of those WTAF types of scenarios and/or the villains are such unrepentant scumbags (or both) that the "hero" snaps, and the latter where it's established he has a long history of mental illness. I expect I will again; they can make for really good drama. But that's what they are: drama. That's all they are.

It got moved to non erotic, giving the content that makes sense.

 

[gunhilltrain]

Hi all,

I've been reading LE, and LW in particular, for a pretty long time and I have noticed a worrying trend.

Older stories contain the usual amount of violence a European (like me) expects from US-based entertainment: Some flying fist, a couple of baseball bats, an occasional threat with a gun. But the newer the stories get, the more often you read about the cheated on husband committing assault.

This has since slowly morphed to murder. Of course, the ingenious husband always gets away with it.

Then towards the end of last year, more and more often, suicides appeared at the end of the stories. On 11/09/23, I commented on a "February sucks"-story by Norseman123, that

"The LW-authors have now definitely moved on to this "honorable suicide"-scenario. I'll never understand this American(?), conservative(?), male (?) desire for martyrdom but each his own. I guess in a short while we'll start reading about murder-suicides..."

And, as predicted, today I read the first story that made just that: "Thunder rolls" by waif. The comments so far are all appreciative, praising the terrorist.

Maybe it's my European perspective but most male MCs in LW seem to be white, conservative males. Is this really what this group of people want? Vigilantism, violence, and murder-suicides?

Unfortunately, in real life, such murder-suicide incidents - not sure I'd call them common, but they certainly get a lot of publicity. In the more extreme cases, the man may kill their children too. Sometimes the woman's family members are also targets. This case was near the top of a random search.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...de-grew-manipulative-controlling-di-rcna38423