Russia’s failures in Ukraine imbue Pentagon with newfound confidence

[pecksniff]

Actually yes. For example, the mother of all modern conspiracy theories, the infamous "Protocols of Zion" were allegedly created by order of Tsar's Ohranka.

Man, what is it about Russians?!

 

[LupusDei]

Knowing about captured javelins on the battlefield seems to indicate to me that your sources, if it’s true, have a link, somehow, to sensitive info. I’m sure our military intel knows about it but to trivialize such a find on twitter seems to indicate someone leaking sensitive info close to the battle space. I find that pretty interesting. Maybe I’m just nuts. I believe you still need a secret clearance just to open up a maintenance manual on that system, maybe that changed.

Actually, it was Russian Zvezda TV bragging, I think. They post with up to three days lag mostly, unless there's some urgent propaganda opportunity. But I don't think they would go so far as to produce mockups.

 

[pecksniff]

Ukraine is very much political nation. The ethnicity definitely exists, but is also so diffuse. A lot of ethnic Ukrainians did speak Russian as primary language until the war (many no longer do now).

I was wondering how the Bulgarians even got there. Their country does not border Ukraine -- Romania is in the way. And I can't recall a time when the USSR or the Russian Empire was ever attractive to immigrants. (It must have been at some point -- see the Volga Germans.)

 

[mayfly13]

Ukraine is very much political nation. The ethnicity definitely exists, but is also so diffuse. A lot of ethnic Ukrainians did speak Russian as primary language until the war (many no longer do now).

also Ukraine holds chunks of territories that DO NOT BELONG TO UKRAINE,
they were taken from Romania, Moldova and Hungary in the 20st century.

So even with the real threat of Russian invasion, KGB infiltration in Donbas and the genocide of Ukrainians in Donbas etc,
---they had no right to clamp down on those minorities' languages and traditions, in 2017 and 2021.
And frankly, neither did they have a right to do that to their Russian minorities either.

That also made the Russian neo-Soviets justify Putin's attempts to incorporate Ukraine.

 

[ll74]

They have no right to borders they have had for half a century that are internationally recognized?

Maybe check the Budapest Memorandum.

 

[pecksniff]

Should the Russo/Ukraine war be considered more of a civil war?

Only in Putin's POV.

That's one problem with nationalism -- it is often difficult to define the exact ethnocultural boundaries of a nation. Constitutionally, Wales was part of England for most of its history, and all the people speak English even if they know Welsh -- so is a Welshman just a peculiar kind of Englishman, or not?

 

[pecksniff]

also Ukraine holds chunks of territories that DO NOT BELONG TO UKRAINE,
they were taken from Romania, Moldova and Hungary in the 20st century.

That's another problem with nationalism. Every country has "historic claims" to some other's territory.

Walter Lippman:

Now it happened in one nation that the war party which was in control of the foreign office, the high command, and most of the press, had claims on the territory of several of its neighbors. These claims were called the Greater Ruritania by the cultivated classes who regarded Kipling, Treitschke, and Maurice Barres as one hundred percent Ruritanian. But the grandiose idea aroused no enthusiasm abroad. So holding this finest flower of the Ruritanian genius, as their poet laureate said, to their hearts, Ruritania's statesmen went forth to divide and conquer. They divided the claim into sectors. For each piece they invoked that stereotype which some one or more of their allies found it difficult to resist, because that ally had claims for which it hoped to find approval by the use of this same stereotype.

The first sector happened to be a mountainous region inhabited by alien peasants. Ruritania demanded it to complete her natural geographical frontier. If you fixed your attention long enough on the ineffable value of what is natural, those alien peasants just dissolved into fog, and only the slope of the mountains was visible. The next sector was inhabited by Ruritanians, and on the principle that no people ought to live under alien rule, they were re-annexed. Then came a city of considerable commercial importance, not inhabited by Ruritanians. But until the Eighteenth Century it had been part of Ruritania, and on the principle of Historic Right it was annexed. Farther on there was a splendid mineral deposit owned by aliens and worked by aliens. On the principle of reparation for damage it was annexed. Beyond this there was a territory inhabited 97% by aliens, constituting the natural geographical frontier of another nation, never historically a part of Ruritania. But one of the provinces which had been federated into Ruritania had formerly traded in those markets, and the upper class culture was Ruritanian. On the principle of cultural superiority and the necessity of defending civilization, the lands were claimed. Finally, there was a port wholly disconnected from Ruritania geographically, ethnically, economically, historically, traditionally. It was demanded on the ground that it was needed for national defense.

In the treaties that concluded the Great War you can multiply examples of this kind. Now I do not wish to imply that I think it was possible to resettle Europe consistently on any one of these principles. I am certain that it was not. The very use of these principles, so pretentious and so absolute, meant that the spirit of accommodation did not prevail and that, therefore, the substance of peace was not there. For the moment you start to discuss factories, mines, mountains, or even political authority, as perfect examples of some eternal principle or other, you are not arguing, you are fighting. That eternal principle censors out all the objections, isolates the issue from its background and its context, and sets going in you some strong emotion, appropriate enough to the principle, highly inappropriate to the docks, warehouses, and real estate. And having started in that mood you cannot stop. A real danger exists. To meet it you have to invoke more absolute principles in order to defend what is open to attack. Then you have to defend the defenses, erect buffers, and buffers for the buffers, until the whole affair is so scrambled that it seems less dangerous to fight than to keep on talking.

 

[mayfly13]

They have no right to borders they have had for half a century that are internationally recognized?

Maybe check the Budapest Memorandum.

But I'm not disputing or trying to redraw Ukraine's current borders.

I'm arguing that Zelenski's proposed 2021 law would have been a disaster.
Both for minorities in Ukraine, but also for Ukrainians, it would have made Russians, Romanians, Hungarians, Moldovans, Bulgarians, Slovaks & hate them.


Incontestable fact:
Ukraine has territories which, until the 20th belonged to other countries.
Hungarians, Romanians and Moldovans lived on those territories for centuries, either in far larger nombers, or long before Ukrainians.

Which is why Zelenski's proposed 2021 law,
whose aim was to get Crimea back
but which in effect would have claimed that only Tatar minorities were 'indigenous' to Ukraine and Crimea
--would have been an outrageous lie about History & violated rights.

Zelenski is either a nationalist, or a well intended but incompetent moron.

 

[mayfly13]

That's another problem with nationalism. Every country has "historic claims" to some other's territory.

Walter Lippman:

I don't understand what you're trying to say.
Didn't Walter Lipman's ancestors cull Native Indians in order to move in?

 

[pecksniff]

I don't understand what you're trying to say.
Didn't Walter Lipman's ancestors cull Native Indians in order to move in?

Yes, and if they demand it back, that is yet another instance of intractable, impenetrable nationalism.

What I'm trying to say is, nationalism bad.

The various peoples of the old Austro-Hungarian Empire would have done better just to keep it.

 

[ll74]

But I'm not disputing or trying to redraw Ukraine's current borders.

I'm arguing that Zelenski's proposed 2021 law would have been a disaster.
Both for minorities in Ukraine, but also for Ukrainians, it would have made Russians, Romanians, Hungarians, Moldovans, Bulgarians, Slovaks & hate them.


Incontestable fact:
Ukraine has territories which, until the 20th belonged to other countries.
Hungarians, Romanians and Moldovans lived on those territories for centuries, either in far larger nombers, or long before Ukrainians.

Which is why Zelenski's proposed 2021 law,
whose aim was to get Crimea back
but which in effect would have claimed that only Tatar minorities were 'indigenous' to Ukraine and Crimea
--would have been an outrageous lie about History & violated rights.

Zelenski is either a nationalist, or a well intended but incompetent moron.

Ukraine has territories that are part of it's country for half a century which have been recognized internationally. Fixed it for ya.

Proposing a law is an internal matter and is just a proposal.

None of this rationalizes unilateral and external participation by foreign countries and certainly doesn't require foreign troops in the country.

I try to take you seriously, but you're absolutely parroting well known Russian propaganda

 

[mayfly13]

Yes, and if they demand it back, that is yet another instance of intractable, impenetrable nationalism.

What I'm trying to say is, nationalism bad.

The various peoples of the old Austro-Hungarian Empire would have done better just to keep it.

yeah, you might have a point, but I and others need to go back ^ pick a History book & read more about it.

That's one of the things that this war made me realize.

I had no clue about the Russia-Ukraine-Polland-Baltic contentious history, only after Lupusdei explained it to us did I realize how dangerous& genocidal Russia is.
Similarly, I only recently learned about Ukraine's own land grabs from it's neighbors and about Zelenski's 2021 proposal, which apparently LD hasn't been made aware of.

 

[mayfly13]

Ukraine has territories that are part of it's country for half a century which have been recognized internationally. Fixed it for ya.

Proposing a law is an internal matter and is just a proposal.

None of this rationalizes unilateral and external participation by foreign countries and certainly doesn't require foreign troops in the country.

I try to take you seriously, but you're absolutely parroting well known Russian propagand

lol
'Murican arrogant exceptionalism combined with ignorance of history in full display.
Fuck reading History books, I read only UN & websites.

 

[ll74]

lol
'Murican arrogant exceptionalism combined with ignorance of history in full display.
Fuck reading History books, I read only UN & websites.

You're the one saying that borders which have been accepted by the international community and specifically BY RUSSIA is somehow part of the discussion. As if, because they were once a part of another country, that it means that foreign involvement in them is acceptable.

I understand history and I understand current state. We do have to take into account history to understand where we are now....such as knowing that Putin has declared himself leader for life over two decades ago and is still dictator. I also understand that he has publicly stated his intentions of reuniting the Soviet Union.

Ukraine has internal issues, which are internal. Certainly being caught between the Eu, NATO and Russia is a tough position, but it's their destiny to create.

And I do understand external guidance is sometimes necessary when countries start abusing their own citizens...but that's when multiple countries work with diplomacy to pressure them to do the right thing.....not invade to force them.

And I'm fully aware that the US has been involved in external wars under false pretexts....I'm not giving us a pass.,...Russia has acted in bad faith towards Ukraine for decades now....they have no right to be there. This is not a civil war...sorry

 

[mayfly13]

You're the one saying that borders which have been accepted by the international community and specifically BY RUSSIA is somehow part of the discussion. As if, because they were once a part of another country, that it means that foreign involvement in them is acceptable.

no, either you misunderstood or my communication in English sucks.

I understand history and I understand current state. We do have to take into account history to understand where we are now....such as knowing that Putin has declared himself leader for life over two decades ago and is still dictator. I also understand that he has publicly stated his intentions of reuniting the Soviet Union.

Ukraine has internal issues, which are internal. Certainly being caught between the Eu, NATO and Russia is a tough position, but it's their destiny to create.

And I do understand external guidance is sometimes necessary when countries start abusing their own citizens...but that's when multiple countries work with diplomacy to pressure them to do the right thing.....not invade to force them.

And I'm fully aware that the US has been involved in external wars under false pretexts....I'm not giving us a pass.,...Russia has acted in bad faith towards Ukraine for decades now....they have no right to be there. This is not a civil war...sorry

oh, now that you've explained it like that...
you're right.

What I was getting at is what icanhelp alluded to as well:

While Putin is clearly trying to reconstitute Mother Russia, and History and morality are totally against him,

Ukrainian governments post-2016 have been very corrupt (only 20% approval pre-war!) and nationalistic - farRight.

Ukrainians are lucky that their neighbors are so traumatised by and fearful of Russia, because their govt. was on the way of alienating them too...

What I would like to happen is once this war is over, Ukrainians say "thank you Zelenski you saved many lives as a wartime president, but now gfy we need a different government."

 

[ll74]

no, either you misunderstood or my communication in English sucks.


oh, now that you've explained it like that...
you're right.

What I was getting at is what icanhelp alluded to as well:

While Putin is clearly trying to reconstitute Mother Russia, and History and morality are totally against him,

Ukrainian governments post-2016 have been very corrupt (only 20% approval pre-war!) and nationalistic - farRight.

Ukrainians are lucky that their neighbors are so traumatised by and fearful of Russia, because their govt. was on the way of alienating them too...

What I would like to happen is once this war is over, Ukrainians say "thank you Zelenski you saved many lives as a wartime president, but now gfy we need a different government."

Then why bring up territories that are part of Ukraine...as if they should give them back or something? What's the point?

Yes, Ukraine has internal issues. And Zelensky most likely will have differing standards now that he's in the spotlight. ....if the country persists, he will be expected to do better....and Ukranians would demand that of him..so will the rest of the world. We've put our necks on the line to support them....we won't accept less.

 

[mayfly13]

Then why bring up territories that are part of Ukraine...as if they should give them back or something? What's the point?

Yes, Ukraine has internal issues. And Zelensky most likely will have differing standards now that he's in the spotlight. ....if the country persists, he will be expected to do better....and Ukranians would demand that of him..so will the rest of the world. We've put our necks on the line to support them....we won't accept less.

Because there are analysts and historians who argue that Americans and the current Ukrainian government should also be held responsible for the current clusterfuck.
I agree with them.

The debate is no longer about the degree of Putin's guilt.
That's black and white, only a psychopath invades and bombs a country and wants to reconstitute the old empire

The big question is: did Americans & Ukrainian government make the invasion happen sooner than later? If not for their chaotic counter-measures, could Putin have been stalled for a few more years until a more sensible govt. took his place, or the international laws etc were updated?

The more time passes, the more I'm seeing that America has too much to gain from this war, and I'm finding out more things pointing to the Ukrainian government's ineptitude.

 

[ll74]

Because there are analysts and historians who argue that Americans and the current Ukrainian government should also be held responsible for the current clusterfuck.
I agree with them.

The debate is no longer about the degree of Putin's guilt.
That's black and white, only a psychopath invades and bombs a country and wants to reconstitute the old empire

The big question is: did Americans & Ukrainian government make the invasion happen sooner than later? If not for their chaotic counter-measures, could Putin have been stalled for a few more years until a more sensible govt. took his place, or the international laws etc were updated?

The more time passes, the more I'm seeing that America has too much to gain from this war, and I'm finding out more things pointing to the Ukrainian government's ineptitude.

So now the Ukraine government and Americans are working together to conspire against Russia?

Again, did you get a mailer from Putin?

 

[mayfly13]

So now the Ukraine government and Americans are working together to conspire against Russia?

Again, did you get a mailer from Putin?

lol no.

They're just all fucked in their head,
Putin 80%, the other ones 20%.
Massmedia's insincerity and sanctification of Americans/Zelenski is starting to annoy laypeople.

 

[ll74]

lol no.

They're just all fucked in their head,
Putin 80%, the other ones 20%.
Massmedia's insincerity and sanctification of Americans/Zelenski is starting to annoy laypeople.

There's no doubt in my mind that Crimea was just the start of what we're seeing now. Whether you find zelensky palatable or not.....nobody put him in that situation except for Putin. And nobody ever expected him to market himself nor his country as well as he has.

 

[pecksniff]

yeah, you might have a point, but I and others need to go back ^ pick a History book & read more about it.

From the history I've read, when Austria-Hungary broke up, it caused severe economic distress to all the successor states, because the authority that had regulated and facilitated regional commerce was gone.

 

[Rightguide]

What else, if they were on Russia Today? It's state TV, isn't it?

At present all TV in Russia is state-controlled. Putin has shut down those media entities that don't toe the line. At least that is the reporting I've seen.

 

[Rightguide]

There are Bulgarians in Ukraine?!

There are Americans and a host of other nationalities in Ukraine.

 

[pecksniff]

There are Americans and a host of other nationalities in Ukraine.

Yeah, but the Americans were there before to do business, and now to fight in the Ukrainian army. There's no American immigrant community.

 

[Rightguide]

Yeah, but the Americans were there before to do business, and now to fight in the Ukrainian army. There's no American immigrant community.

I wasn't referring to an immigrant community or why they were there.