Need help for info on UK re 'knight' 'sir' and 'baron'

[onehitwanda]

Nerd thing 2: this is why the current Leader of the Opposition, Sir Keir Starmer, assumed the role with no difficulties, while Alec Douglas-Home, PM from 1963-64, had to renounce his earldom in order to become the PM, as no noble is allowed in the House of Commons. He had to get his own Commons seat too, so for a few weeks the Prime Minister was in neither House of Parliament.

one of the things I love about my adoptive homeland is how so much of what happens in Westminster is a cross between Monty Python and Yes Minister.

 

[colddiesel]

Churchill was offered a Dukedom twice. He declined in 1945 because he could not afford it; the various ceremonials are expensive. He declined again on retirement in 1955 because his death would terminate the political careers of his modestly talented son and grandson.

 

[K155]

I have a minor character in an upcoming story (current time period)

MC owns a business and makes contact with a UK company owned by 'Sir William Bearington' Call him wealthy but not stinking rich. Think net worth in the 8 to 15 million pound range, not the hundred+ million pound range. Income in the perhaps half-million pound range annually.

I want him to be the lowest of the elite, or near elite and high...ish ranking. I'm thinking technically a knight, but I cannot get a good explanation of that rank. Duke down to Baron has a thousand articles. Knight never seems to be properly explained.

Can anyone from the UK properly explain how the ranks at the bottom end of the elite work? Also, my goal is to not have my MC always calling the guy 'My lord' or such. 'Sir William Bearington' is a nice guy and wants to be called 'William'.

Also. Anything I should know so my story does not look completely stupid to the considerable UK readership here?

Tbh it dosnt really matter. I'd just stick with sir, its easier and cleaner. Knight is a bit contrived.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Tbh it dosnt really matter. I'd just stick with sir, its easier and cleaner. Knight is a bit contrived.

Not sure what the distinction is you're making here. "Sir" goes with being a knight.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

one of the things I love about my adoptive homeland is how so much of what happens in Westminster is a cross between Monty Python and Yes Minister.

You might think that; I couldn't possibly comment.

The original House of Cards and The Thick of It sum it up pretty well, too. If anyone wants a detailed analysis of lawmaking in Westminster, my story Image Nine Point Four is reasonably accurate, at least until the kinky sex starts...

 

[geronimo_appleby]

your MC could be a commoner who made their fortune through business dealings. they did something innovative or philanthropic and gained a knighthood from it. nice and simple.

see Alan Sugar as an exemplar: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Sugar

p.s. ignore the section on him becoming a baron. that muddies the water and isn't relevant to your MC.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

Not sure what the distinction is you're making here. "Sir" goes with being a knight.

True, but except for when it first happens, "ooh, our Bill's being given a knighthood!", and getting knighted by her/his Maj, no-one ever mentions someone 'being a knight'. It's just in the background.

 

[K155]

Not sure what the distinction is you're making here. "Sir" goes with being a knight.

True, but except for when it first happens, "ooh, our Bill's being given a knighthood!", and getting knighted by her/his Maj, no-one ever mentions someone 'being a knight'. It's just in the background.

This. People are only ever referred to (and only if they insist upon it) as their title, Sir, Lord, Earl, etc...

 

[HordHolm]

This. People are only ever referred to (and only if they insist upon it) as their title, Sir, Lord, Earl, etc...

This may be true, but there is also the issue of how two people might talk about a third:

John: where are you spending the weekend?

Richard: I'm going down to the country, Sir William is having a house party.

 

[onehitwanda]

This may be true, but there is also the issue of how two people might talk about a third:

John: where are you spending the weekend?

Richard: I'm going down to the country, Sir William is having a house party.

Except if they were really upper class, the conversation would be more along the lines:

John: Where are you spending the weekend?

Richard: Oh, I'll be down at Bertie's farm for some of the game.

where only an upper class posho would get the following references:

Bertie: Almost certainly Colin Bright, Seventeenth Marquess Beaverbrook, and an old school chum of both of theirs from Rugby.
farm: a hundred square miles of farmland on the Borders that are referenced in the Domesday Book.
game: Grouse shooting.

upper class English society is like the most in-jokes of in-jokes.

 

[HordHolm]

Except if they were really upper class, the conversation would be more along the lines:

John: Where are you spending the weekend?

Richard: Oh, I'll be down at Bertie's farm for some of the game.

where only an upper class posho would get the following references:

Bertie: Almost certainly Colin Bright, Seventeenth Marquess Beaverbrook, and an old school chum of both of theirs from Rugby.
farm: a hundred square miles of farmland on the Borders that are referenced in the Domesday Book.
game: Grouse shooting.

upper class English society is like the most in-jokes of in-jokes.

One the other hand, if they work for him...

John: I was going to have a dirty weekend with Suzie from Accounts...

Richard: But?

John: But Sir William's insisting on having the Wanderlust report ready for Monday.

Richard: Bad luck. He's a right bastard, that one.

 

[TheArsonist]

Bertie: Almost certainly Colin Bright, Seventeenth Marquess Beaverbrook, and an old school chum of both of theirs from Rugby.

The bit about the nickname having no discernible connection to any of his actual names rings true.

"Cottage" is another one: among that class it would probably refer to a 20-bedroom mansion that dates back to the Tudor period.

 

[HordHolm]

The bit about the nickname having no discernible connection to any of his actual names rings true.

The best ones are where the nickname only has a passing resemblance to an actual word - Snodge, or something like that.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

The best ones are where the nickname only has a passing resemblance to an actual word - Snodge, or something like that.

A bit dated - Biffy, Snodge etc would hang out with Bertie Wooster and friends in the 1920s but there's not many Boffo's or Miffy's under about seventy now.

A younger Sir William Bearington of 40-50 is more likely to be called Paddy (Paddington Bear), or Will or a name relating to an embarrassing incident or detail. For example, Prince William's military mates apparently called him Billy Big Fish. (He used the surname Wales, geddit...?)

 

[Tomh1966]

I have decided a knight is perfect. Give some pomp without all the bowing and scraping... BUT

How would the announcement go at a formal dressy dinner?
Sir William Bearington and [forgot what title] Anne Bearington and their guests...
The main character and his wife. We don't have titles here.

"Honorable Joshua Calvert and his wife Allie Calvert" ?? Wouldn't they use Alexandra in this case rather than Allie?

WHAT DO I PUT HERE WHEN THEY ARE ANNOUNCED?

 

[onehitwanda]

I have decided a knight is perfect. Give some pomp without all the bowing and scraping... BUT

How would the announcement go at a formal dressy dinner?
Sir William Bearington and [forgot what title] Anne Bearington and their guests...
The main character and his wife. We don't have titles here.

"Honorable Joshua Calvert and his wife Allie Calvert" ?? Wouldn't they use Alexandra in this case rather than Allie?

WHAT DO I PUT HERE WHEN THEY ARE ANNOUNCED?

Sir William Bearington and Lady Bearington. Sir William is how Sir William will be addressed formally; Lady Bearington has (presumably) no title in and of herself so would simply be Lady Bearington.

 

[billrokra]

One of my friends is a lord. As suggested by most of the posts above, neither he nor those around him would ever use the title in everyday conversation, and a short version of their name or a nickname is quite common among that class, so "Sir William" would likely be Bill, Billy, Wills or Willy, or some other nickname specific to him. The only time a lord ever really uses his title, especially these days, is in those circumstances where anyone would use their title (Mr, Mrs, Ms) such as filling in an official form or selecting their title from a dropdown or in a work environment when referring to him to a third-party.

Basically, any situation where you would call someone Mr/Mrs/Ms, use 'Sir', otherwise use their name or nickname.

 

[HordHolm]

I have decided a knight is perfect. Give some pomp without all the bowing and scraping... BUT

How would the announcement go at a formal dressy dinner?
Sir William Bearington and [forgot what title] Anne Bearington and their guests...
The main character and his wife. We don't have titles here.

"Honorable Joshua Calvert and his wife Allie Calvert" ?? Wouldn't they use Alexandra in this case rather than Allie?

WHAT DO I PUT HERE WHEN THEY ARE ANNOUNCED?

Onehitwanda is correct about Lady Bearington - she's only Lady Anne if she has her own title rather than has something through her husband.

As for Allie Calvert - she can be whatever she wants. If she prefers Alexandra in a formal situation, fine. But if she prefers Allie, that's also ok. Some old folk might find Allie too 'relaxed', but mostly people wouldn't bat an eyelid.

 

[AchtungNight]

Note for readers of my stories- English royalty did hang out at my avatar’s club in London on occasion (see Inside Out), but they were treated the same as anyone else per the neutral ground agreement. My avatar has yet to do anything epic enough for a knighthood and honestly lacks the ambition. He still keeps up the code on his own, though. And so do many of his associates with military backgrounds.

I would encourage others to do the same. Just do it right and don’t get pretentious or worse.

 

[DreamingOfMyEx]

So Sir William started out as William. His father had money. William turned it into a lot more money. He was familiar with some relative of the Royal Family from his days at Oxford, where he also played Rugby with the sons of a couple of noblemen. As his business flourished, he upped his donations to all the "right" charities (at least one of which could boast a member of the Royal Family as a patron.) Eventually, he established an endowment to support an Arts program in the low-rent district, teaching poor children to perform Shakespear or play the violin. For this charitable work he would be recognized by being inducted into some order of chivalry. (not everyone inducted into one of these orders is automatically a "knight" - so his contribution would have to be pretty substantial - or perhaps he would work his way up through the ranks?)

Sir William wouldn't then rush out to buy a horse and suit of armor. The "Sir" would be some visible acknowledgement that his efforts were recognized - and may or may not give him any significant change in status. If you're American, think of it along the lines as the President or a Governor appointed you to a commission of some sort. Like if you were an athlete and you were appointed to the President's Council on Physical Fitness. That would give you a "see, look what I got" - but it wouldn't necessarily enable you to negotiate a better contract as a ball player or give you a role in government other than an advisory one, or an extremely small and limited role.

Previous comments covered a pretty broad area, both in time and geography. This is the modern day version. If you want a knight from the Renaissance or Medieval periods, that's altogether different.

There is also a version of an inherited knighthood. Someone before mentioned the "baronet". It is a sort of "gray area" between a knight and the nobility. While it sounds like "baron" it isn't, and isn't recognized as a title of nobility by anyone. It also doesn't exist outside the UK. It was a money-making scheme by some king long ago - basically selling a title to raise money, but it would have been a stretch for him to sell titles of nobility, so they made up the term baronet. So a baronet was addressed as "Sir" like a knight, because he couldn't be addressed as "Lord". If you ever watch The Scarlet Pimpernel, the titular character is "Sir Percival Blakeney, Baronet" and addressed as "Sir Percy". So there are a couple hundred of them running around if you're interested in an inherited title.

Hope this helps.

 

[Tomh1966]

Sir William Bearington and Lady Bearington. Sir William is how Sir William will be addressed formally; Lady Bearington has (presumably) no title in and of herself so would simply be Lady Bearington.

If my MC and his wife are honored guests. They are from the US and guests of William bearington. US so no titles. how would they be announced?

The MC and William Bearington get along quite well and the MC is rewarding his wife for overcoming an insanely difficult temptation. He adored her before, but now he adores her more because her vows meant so much that she turned down a walking god. This dressy dinner with announcements is part of that reward.

 

[HordHolm]

If my MC and his wife are honored guests. They are from the US and guests of William bearington. US so no titles. how would they be announced?

Simply as Mr and Mrs unless either of them are Doctors or Professors, or have some form of elected or appointed office, for example Representative, Lieutenant-Governor, Attorney-General, Ambassador (in which case the formal address is his/her Excellency).

 

[Tomh1966]

So Sir William started out as William. His father had money. William turned it into a lot more money. He was familiar with some relative of the Royal Family from his days at Oxford, where he also played Rugby with the sons of a couple of noblemen. As his business flourished, he upped his donations to all the "right" charities (at least one of which could boast a member of the Royal Family as a patron.) Eventually, he established an endowment to support an Arts program in the low-rent district, teaching poor children to perform Shakespear or play the violin. For this charitable work he would be recognized by being inducted into some order of chivalry. (not everyone inducted into one of these orders is automatically a "knight" - so his contribution would have to be pretty substantial - or perhaps he would work his way up through the ranks?)

Sir William wouldn't then rush out to buy a horse and suit of armor. The "Sir" would be some visible acknowledgement that his efforts were recognized - and may or may not give him any significant change in status. If you're American, think of it along the lines as the President or a Governor appointed you to a commission of some sort. Like if you were an athlete and you were appointed to the President's Council on Physical Fitness. That would give you a "see, look what I got" - but it wouldn't necessarily enable you to negotiate a better contract as a ball player or give you a role in government other than an advisory one, or an extremely small and limited role.

Previous comments covered a pretty broad area, both in time and geography. This is the modern day version. If you want a knight from the Renaissance or Medieval periods, that's altogether different.

There is also a version of an inherited knighthood. Someone before mentioned the "baronet". It is a sort of "gray area" between a knight and the nobility. While it sounds like "baron" it isn't, and isn't recognized as a title of nobility by anyone. It also doesn't exist outside the UK. It was a money-making scheme by some king long ago - basically selling a title to raise money, but it would have been a stretch for him to sell titles of nobility, so they made up the term baronet. So a baronet was addressed as "Sir" like a knight, because he couldn't be addressed as "Lord". If you ever watch The Scarlet Pimpernel, the titular character is "Sir Percival Blakeney, Baronet" and addressed as "Sir Percy". So there are a couple hundred of them running around if you're interested in an inherited title.

Hope this helps.

Damn, that is good. This is funny but it was a small section of the story and suddenly. Then... I already have a new story outlined from the wife's perspective of overcoming being approached by a walking godling to her reward for being a loyal wife. Not sure what I am calling the second story. The first story is "Tenth Anniversary." and is close to complete with only him telling her how much he adores her, appreciates her loyalty and by the way... I had this trip planned... He is going to work with William to do it up in the grandest style for his wife to show how much he absolutely adores her. The second story... dunno yet. My stories evolve.

I pictured William as a guy who inherited a small factory with a couple of workers in a grubby old brick building but understood the internet and marketing to make it grow to this mid-sized place I mentioned in other posts. It's not huge or uber-modern, but it's not a dump either. William went to the US looking for representation in the US for his high-end products and he found the MC... or actually, the MC found William. In the US trade shows, the big guys get the big hall and big displays. I pictured William sitting in his 10x10 booth in Vegas in a crummy side hall bored when my MC wanders in... MC just happens to manufacture similar things and sells online in the US... A friendship was born.

 

[HordHolm]

If my MC and his wife are honored guests. They are from the US and guests of William bearington. US so no titles. how would they be announced?

Sorry, to add to this (I have a 6 year old demanding things so my replies are difficult to keep coherent), the basic announcement would be something like:

Announcer: Mr and Mrs John Smith (note that they are announced with his full name, because in this formal environment she is his appendage).

However, it can be altered to:

Announcer: Dr and Mrs John Smith

Or,

Announcer: Mr and Dr John Smith

Substitute whatever title in place of Mr and Mrs is necessary, including military rank if appropriate, e.g Capt. and Mrs John Smith, or Mr and Colonel John Smith.

 

[stickygirl]

Announcer: Mr and Mrs John Smith (note that they are announced with his full name, because in this formal environment she is his appendage).

Ouch! How very 20th century. Not a way to make friends