More UK questions help request.

[Tomh1966]

1) I note that UK names are slightly different than the US. I came up with this list for those born ca 1992 to1995. Lauren, Jessica, Charlotte, Hannah, Sophie, Amy, Emily, Laura, Emma. Does this appear accurate? The list definitely differs from the US list of the time. The problem is I saw entirely different sets of names on a couple of different lists. There are a bazillion US based lists and the ones from England are all over the board different. I have a female English protagonist I am developing an outline for and am leaning toward Charlotte or Emma if those reasonably look common enough.

This is the wife of Sir William Bearington so she was born upper middle class or lower upper class. MANY thanks to all those who helped me with my previous threads. I made Sir William Bearington a knight for bringing jobs to the area and supporting charity. Yes, I know he is younger than typical. He is a well-liked, good, hard-working asset to his city who brings jobs to the area and helps by being charitable. He inherited a small manufacturer and made it grow. He's wealthy with a nice house... but not rich enough that the true elites pay attention to him.

BTW you can all see how badly I botched my interpretation, Sir William is briefly mentioned near the end of 'Tenth Anniversary' and my protagonists are going to spend a week with Sir William and his wife. This story is a LONG way off but I am filling in an outline.

1A) What would be the common nicknames of Charlotte or Emma? IE what would her friends call her?
1B) What would be the most common names for Sir William? He enjoys being announced as Sir William at formal events several to a half dozen times a year, but that is as far as he pushes the whole 'sir' thing. An ego boost once in a while, but not all that often.

2) From the US which can give a massively stilted view... Getting naked for charity seems to be a thing in the UK.
I have seen the following things: (for a fun scene)
1) Naked calendars, but seem very censored with only bare bottoms.
2) A Lady Godiva horse ride.
3) Naked beach runs into the water (Many- damn they looked cold!)
4) Full Monty or Half Monty. Women dance (mostly badly), strip, then show either topless or nude on stage.
5) Topless zip line.

OTHER ideas of real events? I'm not looking for a long detail just what the event was and approximately when. With a name and an approximate date, I can research it myself.

 

[K155]

Nickname for Charlotte would be Lottie. But upperclass people in England often have ridiculous nicknames like Binky, or Wiggie, Jonty for guys. If you want to look it up, I think the subset of people you are going for are Sloanes; which is a nickname for a particular type of posh English person.

2) No so much for very posh people to be honest. It's more middle class, like the WI ladies calander etc...

 

[Bazzle]

1) I note that UK names are slightly different than the US. I came up with this list for those born ca 1992 to1995. Lauren, Jessica, Charlotte, Hannah, Sophie, Amy, Emily, Laura, Emma. Does this appear accurate? The list definitely differs from the US list of the time. The problem is I saw entirely different sets of names on a couple of different lists. There are a bazillion US based lists and the ones from England are all over the board different. I have a female English protagonist I am developing an outline for and am leaning toward Charlotte or Emma if those reasonably look common enough.

This is the wife of Sir William Bearington so she was born upper middle class or lower upper class. MANY thanks to all those who helped me with my previous threads. I made Sir William Bearington a knight for bringing jobs to the area and supporting charity. Yes, I know he is younger than typical. He is a well-liked, good, hard-working asset to his city who brings jobs to the area and helps by being charitable. He inherited a small manufacturer and made it grow. He's wealthy with a nice house... but not rich enough that the true elites pay attention to him.

BTW you can all see how badly I botched my interpretation, Sir William is briefly mentioned near the end of 'Tenth Anniversary' and my protagonists are going to spend a week with Sir William and his wife. This story is a LONG way off but I am filling in an outline.

1A) What would be the common nicknames of Charlotte or Emma? IE what would her friends call her?
1B) What would be the most common names for Sir William? He enjoys being announced as Sir William at formal events several to a half dozen times a year, but that is as far as he pushes the whole 'sir' thing. An ego boost once in a while, but not all that often.

2) From the US which can give a massively stilted view... Getting naked for charity seems to be a thing in the UK.
I have seen the following things: (for a fun scene)
1) Naked calendars, but seem very censored with only bare bottoms.
2) A Lady Godiva horse ride.
3) Naked beach runs into the water (Many- damn they looked cold!)
4) Full Monty or Half Monty. Women dance (mostly badly), strip, then show either topless or nude on stage.
5) Topless zip line.

OTHER ideas of real events? I'm not looking for a long detail just what the event was and approximately when. With a name and an approximate date, I can research it myself.

1) Yes, most of my class mates had those names
1a) Charlie or Lottie. Ems.
1b) Will...but might be called by his surname more than his first. "Bearington" would be shouted down the hallway rather than Will...as there would be hundreds of Williams. In upper class circles the Surname has more power?

2) Yes, or at close to being naked as possible check out TV telephones...Comic Relief do some zany things.

 

[Altissimus]

1) I note that UK names are slightly different than the US. I came up with this list for those born ca 1992 to1995. Lauren, Jessica, Charlotte, Hannah, Sophie, Amy, Emily, Laura, Emma. Does this appear accurate?

Yes, but Amy and Laura are middle-class while Lauren and Jessica are working class in that era.

1A) What would be the common nicknames of Charlotte or Emma? IE what would her friends call her?

Lottie, without a doubt.

1B) What would be the most common names for Sir William? He enjoys being announced as Sir William at formal events several to a half dozen times a year, but that is as far as he pushes the whole 'sir' thing. An ego boost once in a while, but not all that often.

As a public school boy, he'd carry his nickname from there into adult life. This may not be anything to do with his actual name, and could be literally anything. Typical nicknames are 'Stinker', 'Oofy', 'Pongo', 'Little Bingo', 'Stiffy', 'Kipper' and 'Tuppy'. Just... don't ask.

2) From the US which can give a massively stilted view... Getting naked for charity seems to be a thing in the UK.

Yes, at university - though at university they hardly need a reason. Yes, for the middle classes, on occasion. No for the aristocracy (unless they're at university).

I have seen the following things: (for a fun scene)
1) Naked calendars, but seem very censored with only bare bottoms.
2) A Lady Godiva horse ride.
3) Naked beach runs into the water (Many- damn they looked cold!)
4) Full Monty or Half Monty. Women dance (mostly badly), strip, then show either topless or nude on stage.
5) Topless zip line.

OTHER ideas of real events? I'm not looking for a long detail just what the event was and approximately when. With a name and an approximate date, I can research it myself.

Not sure what the ask is here. If you're looking to know how the wealthy elite engage with charities, the frequent answer is 'of course they don't'. However, if you want something realistic I'd tend towards raffles, prize draws, benefit dinners and concerts.

 

[Roland_Castle]

Hello, English person here, for my sins.

1) The female names all seem fine for that time period, if a little generic. That wont be a problem if the character you're writing is from an upper middle class / upper class background. I appreciate it might be a bit late for this, but it might be worth changing Sir William Bearington to William Bearington MBE. An MBE is more likely to be given out to someone from a middle class background who has made it then an actual title. MBE stand for 'Member of the Order of the British Empire' and is much more likely to be given out to someone who isn't already a aristocrat.

1A) If Charlotte / Emma is a aristo, it's unlikely they would be a Charlie, a Lottie, an Ems or anything else derived from their actual name. Its possibly if they do have a nickname it would be something from childhood. Bunty, Bunny, Trixie or something like that. Maybe a pet name that a Nanny gave them that has followed them into adulthood.

1B) If Sir William is from a lower background he might prefer to be a Will, a Bill or a Billy. Especially if he likes to think of himself as still having a 'common touch'.

2) I don't think getting naked is massively more common here then in the US but who knows. Naked calendars with strategically placed props are pretty common. A Lady Godiva ride is really not.

 

[onehitwanda]

If you're looking for upper-class women the name selection will be skewed a lot. Fewer Emilies, Laras, etc and far more:

Penelope
Imogen
Amelia
Phoebe
Isolde
Iris
Cressida

etc.

 

[Bazzle]

If you're looking for upper-class women the name selection will be skewed a lot. Fewer Emilies, Laras, etc and far more:

Penelope
Imogen
Amelia
Phoebe
Isolde
Iris
Cressida

etc.

Ultimately go through any of the Bronte sisters books...

 

[onehitwanda]

2) I don't think getting naked is massively more common here then in the US but who knows. Naked calendars with strategically placed props are pretty common. A Lady Godiva ride is really not.

Yeah, no. Brits are massively less prudish than our American cousins. Case in point - page three.

 

[MajorRewrite]

1B: Sir William Bearington’s nickname would be “Wanker”, surely.

 

[Tomh1966]

LOL I knew this would happen. So many subtle differences skew perceptions of my words.

Im thinking the wife's background straddles the line between the upper and middle class. Probably a difference in perception of words in the US vs UK. Put it this way, her dad probably had an income of let's say 250K to 350K pounds. Dad had some kind of company but did work a full work week and most of that income came from his business being successful, not owning passive investments. he may or may not have been 'sir' anything.

Define 'aristocrat'... to me, that actually means a Baron or higher or something but I am US so my perceptions of the words will differ...

 

[HordHolm]

1. Charlotte or Emma are perfectly fine. Lottie is undoubtedly the obvious nickname of choice. Emma would shorten to Ems as previously noted. However... don't be afraid to get a bit left field for girl's names as foreign influences can easily influence from the 60s onwards, plus some families recycle names regardless of fashion (often to the chagrin of the Florences and Augustuses of this world). Lastly, whilst it might seem reasonable for girls to be given names currently in vogue amongst the royal family, this is VERY MUCH a middle class thing, the aristocracy often regarding themselves as more blue blooded than the parvenue royals (who are, after all, German interlopers).

2. Sir William will be called different things by different people, depending on their relationship to him. Family will call him William, Will, Bill, Billy, etc, or another nickname he might have picked up along the way. Nicknames will commonly revolve around a) physical characteristics, but that tends to be more working class (e.g. the 6 foot 8 biker I used to know who was, of course, called Shorty), or b) some notable event or characteristic from his school years. One other option is for a nickname to be totally and inexplicably random: thus, I knew a guy called Brian whose nickname was Spike. Even he didn't know why.

Regarding Sir William's title... I agree with the comment upthread that notes something like an OBE or MBE is more likely for charitable donations, unless the recipient is really upper-class, private school educated, or very, very high public profile. It isn't a big thing, and wouldn't break my suspension of disbelief if he got the Sir for charity, but more believable is if he got it for political connections - being a local party chairman of one of the main parties, doing behind the scenes stuff for them, making donations to them as well as to charity. You might not want to go down that particular route, which is understandable, and it won't be anything that raises eyebrows if you stick to your current backstory for him.

3. I agree with the comment that Middle-class Brits might get their kit off for charity or just for kicks, but the upper class won't.

PS. Just seen your newest comment. Re: a family straddling the middle-class/upper-class line. Write them based on their motivations - if they want to move up, they will try to act accordingly to be accepted. If they are content where they are, they will act in a middle-class manner (and many middle-class people secretly believe the upper-classes to be morally questionable ne'er-do-wells).

EDIT: to add, people more distant from Sir William will naturally address him more formally unless he corrects them. This will include employees, neighbours, contractors and the like.

 

[HordHolm]

LOL I knew this would happen. So many subtle differences skew perceptions of my words.

Im thinking the wife's background straddles the line between the upper and middle class. Probably a difference in perception of words in the US vs UK. Put it this way, her dad probably had an income of let's say 250K to 350K pounds. Dad had some kind of company but did work a full work week and most of that income came from his business being successful, not owning passive investments. he may or may not have been 'sir' anything.

Define 'aristocrat'... to me, that actually means a Baron or higher or something but I am US so my perceptions of the words will differ...

Dad here is middle-class. No doubt.

 

[HordHolm]

One last thing here, OP: if you have the time and inclination for a real deep dive on research I hugely recommend a book called Watching the English by Kate Fox, a social anthropologist. It's 20 years old now, but it is a great survey of class attitudes, social attitudes, behaviours, etc. Put it this way, many English peoples' reactions to reading it have been, "shit! We really are like that." But it would be a deep dive...

 

[onehitwanda]

Also, be aware that in the UK, money doesn't determine class. There's no magical line of income that delineates working, middle and upper class - it's very much more nuanced than that. Upper class is about association. Wealth comes into it, but in the UK the real upper class will look down on uppity newcomers - even if the newcomers are worth many orders of magnitude more well-off than them.

To take this to the extreme: A friend's son goes to school with the boy who will be the next Viscount Falmouth. They apparently drive an eleven year old Nissan or something similar, yet have land and assets probably in the hundreds of millions of pounds. Meanwhile, aspiring social climbers are worth a few millions and show up in their Aston Martins at school run.

The first type will never willingly associate with the second type. Any interaction between the two groups will be characterised by aloof defensiveness from the first, who are suspicious of the motives of the second, and ingratiation and faintly-masked jealousy on the part of the second, who know that no matter how much money they claw together they will never have the four hundred year old family name.

Then you've got the pavement specials like moi, sitting on the outside and getting plastered as we laugh, and laugh, and laugh.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

LOL I knew this would happen. So many subtle differences skew perceptions of my words.

Im thinking the wife's background straddles the line between the upper and middle class. Probably a difference in perception of words in the US vs UK. Put it this way, her dad probably had an income of let's say 250K to 350K pounds. Dad had some kind of company but did work a full work week and most of that income came from his business being successful, not owning passive investments. he may or may not have been 'sir' anything.

Define 'aristocrat'... to me, that actually means a Baron or higher or something but I am US so my perceptions of the words will differ...

Yeah, 'class' in the UK is about history, more than wealth, though the two often go together. Think 'old money'.

Those names are typical for the 90s. Charlotte could be a Lottie but may be a Charlie or Sharlie. Emma was less common by then. Venetia, Francesca, Cressida, Lavinia, Olivia, Sophie would all be posh names (Sophie and Olivia later became incredibly popular).

Bearington is an unknown surname, except for the cuddly toy company. Barrington or Berrington would be much more likely. If he is definitely a Bearington, I'd lay money on his friends calling him Teddy, but Bill also works - he's a bit old for Will but it's possible.

Donations to charity raffles and attending charity dinners (pay to attend, then once everyone is drunk, have an auction of prizes) are most likely. Such dinners can get incredibly raucous and have illicit shagging in the cloakrooms. Naked calendars were a thing for a few years after Calendar Girls came out.

Charity sports matches and challenges might also be a thing if Bill wants to show off his physique, but full nudity isnt likely. But wardrobe malfunctions happen - he could be standing in a river to judge the winner of a rubber duck race, fall over, have to strip and then cope...

 

[GlennJenko]

Define 'aristocrat'

As a Brit, I'd define an aristocrat as really anyone with a vast amount of income and status in society (read: generational status and hella connections). Usually someone with some generational wealth who went to toff boy schools such as Eton and Harrow before going through Oxbridge and then often taking over daddy's business once he retires. So they don't necessarily need to be a noble or anything for that.

 

[Tomh1966]

Thank you Hord. Middle Class vs upper... throw in income and again cultural differences. 350K income is pretty close to the upper class in the US. There are different flavors of upper class in the US. My daughters old BFF was on that line. Dad made I'll guess around 500K USD per year. Wealthy but not filthy rich. 4500 square foot house plus a basement bigger than the place I rent. Total air-conditioned space is around 6700 square feet and the basement is walkout (Built into a hill. Front of the basement underground back is exposed walk -out to an inground pool) Big, but not massive.

Then we have our billionaires which is NOT what I am aiming at.

 

[Tomh1966]

Kumquat... TEDDY... Phucking brilliant!

 

[Kumquatqueen]

Just about no-one in the UK is 'upper class'. A couple thousand, maybe. Your typical posho that you seem to be aiming for is what's called 'upper middle class', the man works for a living but has enough family money to switch about, have breaks, make contacts and focus on connections, woman has some creative job and/or does voluntary work. An average job is fine to live on if Daddy paid for your nice house in SW London and you have a little place in Tuscany/Cornwall you can go to for holidays.

Detached house in the Home Counties, sees private schooling as a default, goes to the right ski resorts, kids hang out at Annabel's,but probably doesn't get entangled in the power-broker types who control the media and politics, doesn't play polo, expects children to do well at school and go to uni.

 

[HordHolm]

Thank you Hord. Middle Class vs upper... throw in income and again cultural differences. 350K income is pretty close to the upper class in the US. There are different flavors of upper class in the US. My daughters old BFF was on that line. Dad made I'll guess around 500K USD per year. Wealthy but not filthy rich. 4500 square foot house plus a basement bigger than the place I rent. Total air-conditioned space is around 6700 square feet and the basement is walkout (Built into a hill. Front of the basement underground back is exposed walk -out to an inground pool) Big, but not massive.

Then we have our billionaires which is NOT what I am aiming at.

Yeah, @onehitwanda nailed it - it isn't about money so much as history and connections - an aristocrat can have holes in their shoes, an empty fridge and live in a one bedroom flat with 6 months' arrears on the rent. They are still upper-class. one way to view it is the attitude to going to university (which I stereotype here, I admit)

The upper-class/upper-middle-class go to university to continue the networking they've been doing at private school, to join the right university clubs (rowing, yachting and winter sports very much to the fore here), or because these days the British military want their officers to have degrees.

The middle-class go to university to gain the professional qualifications they need to enter the top end jobs in medicine (less class based these days), finance, the law. Or if the kid isn't bright enough for this, they still go to get some kind of degree, because not to go is shame.

The working-class go to university with the clear aim of getting an improved standard of living.

 

[onehitwanda]

Thank you Hord. Middle Class vs upper... throw in income and again cultural differences. 350K income is pretty close to the upper class in the US. There are different flavors of upper class in the US. My daughters old BFF was on that line. Dad made I'll guess around 500K USD per year. Wealthy but not filthy rich. 4500 square foot house plus a basement bigger than the place I rent. Total air-conditioned space is around 6700 square feet and the basement is walkout (Built into a hill. Front of the basement underground back is exposed walk -out to an inground pool) Big, but not massive.

Then we have our billionaires which is NOT what I am aiming at.

The US is an intensely capitalistic society where if you're wealthy you're almost expected to flaunt it.

The UK is very different. The middle-aged man walking down the country lane in muddy fucked-up clothes could actually own everything within fourty square miles. It's almost vulgar to flaunt wealth here.

The upper-class/upper-middle-class go to university to continue the networking they've been doing at private school, to join the right university clubs (rowing, yachting and winter sports very much to the fore here), or because these days the British military want their officers to have degrees.

The Upper class will also de-facto have entry into the better colleges in Oxford, Cambridge, St Andrews etc due to long family associations, never mind significant bits of the campus will be NAMED after them.

The middle-class go to university to gain the professional qualifications they need to enter the top end jobs in medicine (less class based these days), finance, the law. Or if the kid isn't bright enough for this, they still go to get some kind of degree, because not to go is shame.

The upper-middle class will also literally sell the shirt off their backs to ensure that they can afford the tutors, music teachers, sports clubs etc - every possible possibility that will give their child a leg up. They will move houses to ensure they live in the catchment areas of the better schools and will literally mortgage everything they own to the hilt to 1. present a facade of success and 2. never, ever show the slightest hint that they're one unexpected bill away from penury.

The working-class go to university with the clear aim of getting an improved standard of living.

And often it's a weird mix of shame and pride - pride that the child is the first in the family who'll have a degree, shame from the shaming of their peers who will start to think that the family thinks they're better than everyone else.

 

[StillStunned]

If you can track it down, watch "On the Up". A show that ran for three series in the 1990s. Dennis Waterman plays a nouveau riche businessman trying to cope with his change in social status and navigating the upper-class world of his wife and, by extension, their daughter.

It also starred Sam Kelly (Captain Hans Geering from 'Allo 'Allo) and national treasure Joan Sims.

 

[Bazzle]

If you can track it down, watch "On the Up". A show that ran for three series in the 1990s. Dennis Waterman plays a nouveau riche businessman trying to cope with his change in social status and navigating the upper-class world of his wife and, by extension, their daughter.

It also starred Sam Kelly (Captain Hans Geering from 'Allo 'Allo) and national treasure Joan Sims.

Of course "Keeping up Appearances" is another classic of that sort of time!

 

[Kumquatqueen]

Of course "Keeping up Appearances" is another classic of that sort of time!

Very lower middle class with Notions, though!

 

[HordHolm]

Of course "Keeping up Appearances" is another classic of that sort of time!

I find that show incredibly bitter underneath it all, and very sneering towards the working class. Yes, it mocks the woman who wants to present herself as more respectable (middle-class) than her background, but what it actually says about the rest of her family is pretty nasty, really.