NOIRTRASH
Literotica Guru
- Joined
- Aug 22, 2015
- Posts
- 10,580
The incident I mentioned didn't happen in Tampa, or indeed in Florida, so I'm not quite sure how this is intended to be relevant.
Florida was always the most racist state in the South.
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The incident I mentioned didn't happen in Tampa, or indeed in Florida, so I'm not quite sure how this is intended to be relevant.
Uh-huh. It's kind of amusing that you start out all pious about racist IR porn and veer straight from there into balls-out supremacist xenophobic dogma. Somehow I don't get the feeling from that that it's the racism in IR porn that you're really objecting to.
IR porn is of course no less potentially problematic a kink than noncon or incest or anything else. Most of it runs on bestializing black-white stereotypes that issue from exactly the same place that leads cops to think they have the right to shoot black kids like game animals. In a perfect world sex is just sex no matter the race of who's involved, if there's a frisson of "interracial" taboo and thrill involved it's because racism is involved. (Also why IRL sex with people who are fully running on an "interracial" fetish mostly sucks, it works best as fantasy.)
So, you know, own that. We don't live in a perfect world and we have lots of kinks about destructive things that in the light of day we (hopefully) know aren't healthy, we can at least be eyes-open about them. A lot of IR stories are unreflective racist trash. Personally the lesson I take from that is that when I write IR I try to put the racism of the kink right up-front and the fact that it so often involves nonwhite people (and white people) role-playing something they're not right up front. OTOH once we're across that Rubicon and all about owning shit, I have no problem with making the sex filthy as hell, and I make no apologies; on account of just generally I have no problems with making the sex filthy, but also if someone has racist kinks I'm mostly not buying the pretense that down deep it's all about fluffy romance. If it's not your cuppa then don't read the story. (Fluffy romance stories about people who happen to be from different backgrounds and doing what they need to do to find love and common ground are fine and good and healthy, but that's not "interracial," that's just romance.)
The incident I mentioned didn't happen in Tampa, or indeed in Florida, so I'm not quite sure how this is intended to be relevant.
Show me a great empire that was diverse, I'll show you one that was collapsing and did collapse.
"all cats eat meat, all cats die, therefore eating meat is lethal to cats."
Anglophone newspapers and magazines of the last half of the 19th century (that's 1850-1900, folks) commonly depicted Irish as apes. NO IRISH NEED APPLY and DOGS AND IRISH NOT ALLOWED signs were not uncommon in the USA North. A nasty IR story of the era might feature a nice Anglo-American girl taking up with an Irish brute, anxious to be pounded by that bestial BIC (Big Irish Cock). Eventually, liberals might allow Irish to move next door -- but they wouldn't want their sister marrying one. Sound familiar?It's a funny thing in North America particularly: the xenophobes never, ever seem to realize there's been someone banging their exact same drum ever since the first Irishman stepped off a boat in the wake of the potato famine...
I can see the merit of IR stories exploring ethnic taboos over time. Maybe follow a line of WASP aunts & nieces facing new taboos each generation: Irish, Italian, Chinese, Lidwac, Cherokee, Black, Chicano, Vietnamese, now Arab. All are InterRacial, but 'race' morphs with time.
You're on iggy now, wet_special, but since you're presumably being defensive of your moronic supremacist rant: it's basically the difference between someone who writes murder mysteries and someone who professes to believe that murder is okay. I'm the former, you're the latter -- but yep, your creed of hate and ignorance is where the Deep Moral Piety is at, that's the ticket.
I forgot how easily it is to be misunderstood when you disrupt the diversity good mantra. Diversity in itself is not a strength. It is variance of culture and ethnicity and whatnot. How is that a strength, per se?
I'm no white supremacist but
I take a dim view of superstitious or tribal cultures, which still exist all over the world.
Let's have our diverse cultures if we must, but keep them where they are. Don't bring cruddy cultures into the one that generally agrees should respect women's rights
Uh-huh. It's kind of amusing that you start out all pious about racist IR porn and veer straight from there into balls-out supremacist xenophobic dogma. Somehow I don't get the feeling from that that it's the racism in IR porn that you're really objecting to.
IR porn is of course no less potentially problematic a kink than noncon or incest or anything else. Most of it runs on bestializing black-white stereotypes that issue from exactly the same place that leads cops to think they have the right to shoot black kids like game animals. In a perfect world sex is just sex no matter the race of who's involved, if there's a frisson of "interracial" taboo and thrill involved it's because racism is involved. (Also why IRL sex with people who are fully running on an "interracial" fetish mostly sucks, it works best as fantasy.)
So, you know, own that. We don't live in a perfect world and we have lots of kinks about destructive things that in the light of day we (hopefully) know aren't healthy, we can at least be eyes-open about them. A lot of IR stories are unreflective racist trash. Personally the lesson I take from that is that when I write IR I try to put the racism of the kink right up-front and the fact that it so often involves nonwhite people (and white people) role-playing something they're not right up front. OTOH once we're across that Rubicon and all about owning shit, I have no problem with making the sex filthy as hell, and I make no apologies; on account of just generally I have no problems with making the sex filthy, but also if someone has racist kinks I'm mostly not buying the pretense that down deep it's all about fluffy romance. If it's not your cuppa then don't read the story. (Fluffy romance stories about people who happen to be from different backgrounds and doing what they need to do to find love and common ground are fine and good and healthy, but that's not "interracial," that's just romance.)
You're talking about shit you don't really understand, all interracial shit is built on racist shit...but that doesn't mean it doesn't have any good to it. If liking interracial porn for the skin contrast and the submission aspect of it makes me racist, then I guess I am a racist black man.
Coming on the black man side who a lot of those shlocky stories are somewhat made for. I enjoy it. There's some bad shit, as there is some good shit in most writing. Not everything hits all the time. It all appeals to certain crowds, I mean. I could say the same thing ya'll are saying about incest erotica, cause it don't appeal to me.
Just cause it doesn't appeal to you, don't make it bad at all
Bolded phrase is exactly what I was saying (that and that recognizing this is better than ignoring it). Otherwise you're missing the point. I'm in the same boat you are, I'm not pretending otherwise. Having a racial kink doesn't necessarily make you or me or anyone else racist in the way the poster I was responding to is (whether that's the case varies from person to person), and in general I'd far rather see people work that shit out in fantasies than bringing it into politics or pretending it's Serious Morality. (Short version: I just don't have time for people who are actual real-life bigots trying to pretend they can play pious about interracial kink fantasy.)
Generally my rule with sexual fantasy is know the difference between fantasy and reality. If that's being "too serious" then fuck it, guess I'm too serious. Oh well.
Then I must of completely misunderstood what you were getting at man, cause it kind of sounded like you were whining a bit about how "none of these stories are serious enough for me"/"all this stuff is racist and I don't like it"
Not just LIT or pr0n; much fiction invokes or relies on stereotypes. Cue the spear-carriers. Paint a cartoon character as an angry horny BBC, or a Southern sorority girl, or a gay atheist communist vegan professor (he's in the latest issue of Smithsonian Magazine), et fucking cetera. Maybe play with the stereotype: the BBC is quiet, cultured; the sorority girl is smart, liberal; the prof dresses like a cattle rancher. But the stereotype is a descriptive shortcut.What I said is many IR stories run on stereotypes that are dangerous in the real world (has nothing to do with whether they're hot stories or good at what they're doing, it's just a fact that that's what it runs on); and that a lot of stories reproduce the racism in the kink without much thought. To be clear, whether they're "serious enough for me" is neither here nor there, it's fucking porn for Christ's sake. All I was saying is that if the racism of the kink actually is something you notice, there are ways you can write it that aren't just recycling stereotypes.
I have no idea why this country "thinks" it has a race problem. I have traveled the world and by far USA is the place to be in that if you want to get ahead, you can with work. What this country doesn't do is tell the truth. They lie to the children in schools. They lie on the news. They lie in customer service. For instance.... Called my internet provider, placed on hold and heard "Your call is very important to us...." for forty freaking minutes. A big business, lying to me over and over, before their operator finally picks up. Why not say, "To keep cost down, we have few operators that can pick up at this moment, you have been placed in line..."Not just LIT or pr0n; much fiction invokes or relies on stereotypes. Cue the spear-carriers. Paint a cartoon character as an angry horny BBC, or a Southern sorority girl, or a gay atheist communist vegan professor (he's in the latest issue of Smithsonian Magazine), et fucking cetera. Maybe play with the stereotype: the BBC is quiet, cultured; the sorority girl is smart, liberal; the prof dresses like a cattle rancher. But the stereotype is a descriptive shortcut.
How do we use those cartoon characters? Do we explore them or exploit them? Do we consciously promote racist stereotypes? Is every black male a brute, every black female a slut or welfare queen, every Mexican a thieving lazy shit, every Jew a conniving finagler, etc? How do we treat the taboos associated with each?
I'd like to see IR stories in new contexts, not traditional USA racism. I've read that Japanese culture is very racist re: Westerners, Koreans, others, and that Russians can be very racist vs their non-Russian minorities. I know Ladino (white) Mexicans can despise Indio (native) and Mestizo (mixed) peoples. Before colonial subjects started immigrating, the main divisions in Britain were based on class, not race, but with similar attitudes and consequences. And Europeans now have plenty of African, Arab, Muslim, Asian etc folks to hate and fuck-over. Cue the studly ISIS recruiters.
Meanwhile, I'll keep writing multiracial hookups into my stories. (When I get back to writing, anyway.) Some will be cartoonish. Hey, this is smut!