IR Stories Suck...

[NOIRTRASH]

The incident I mentioned didn't happen in Tampa, or indeed in Florida, so I'm not quite sure how this is intended to be relevant.

Florida was always the most racist state in the South.

 

[wet_special]

Uh-huh. It's kind of amusing that you start out all pious about racist IR porn and veer straight from there into balls-out supremacist xenophobic dogma. Somehow I don't get the feeling from that that it's the racism in IR porn that you're really objecting to.

IR porn is of course no less potentially problematic a kink than noncon or incest or anything else. Most of it runs on bestializing black-white stereotypes that issue from exactly the same place that leads cops to think they have the right to shoot black kids like game animals. In a perfect world sex is just sex no matter the race of who's involved, if there's a frisson of "interracial" taboo and thrill involved it's because racism is involved. (Also why IRL sex with people who are fully running on an "interracial" fetish mostly sucks, it works best as fantasy.)

So, you know, own that. We don't live in a perfect world and we have lots of kinks about destructive things that in the light of day we (hopefully) know aren't healthy, we can at least be eyes-open about them. A lot of IR stories are unreflective racist trash. Personally the lesson I take from that is that when I write IR I try to put the racism of the kink right up-front and the fact that it so often involves nonwhite people (and white people) role-playing something they're not right up front. OTOH once we're across that Rubicon and all about owning shit, I have no problem with making the sex filthy as hell, and I make no apologies; on account of just generally I have no problems with making the sex filthy, but also if someone has racist kinks I'm mostly not buying the pretense that down deep it's all about fluffy romance. If it's not your cuppa then don't read the story. (Fluffy romance stories about people who happen to be from different backgrounds and doing what they need to do to find love and common ground are fine and good and healthy, but that's not "interracial," that's just romance.)

So you write racist kink IR porn -- fine, go ahead. Then you call me a racist xenophobe because I contradict diversity dogma. Did little Cyrano get triggered? Smh What is the world coming to? SJW by day, racist IR author by night.

I said we should defend what is good, which is why when I write smut, I don't sink to cockroach level to make it into racist filth. It's not hard to understand.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

IR is fantasy fiction. FANTASY FICTION.

 

[CyranoJ]

You're on iggy now, wet_special, but since you're presumably being defensive of your moronic supremacist rant: it's basically the difference between someone who writes murder mysteries and someone who professes to believe that murder is okay. I'm the former, you're the latter -- but yep, your creed of hate and ignorance is where the Deep Moral Piety is at, that's the ticket.

 

[sr71plt]

The incident I mentioned didn't happen in Tampa, or indeed in Florida, so I'm not quite sure how this is intended to be relevant.

Relevance isn't a requirement for a JBJ posting.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Show me a great empire that was diverse, I'll show you one that was collapsing and did collapse.

"all cats eat meat, all cats die, therefore eating meat is lethal to cats."

 

[CyranoJ]

"all cats eat meat, all cats die, therefore eating meat is lethal to cats."

It's a funny thing in North America particularly: the xenophobes never, ever seem to realize there's been someone banging their exact same drum ever since the first Irishman stepped off a boat in the wake of the potato famine, and through each and every single wave of migration or immigration since (including various rednecks in various eras whingeing about "Negro invasion threats" in an unbroken string from the first days of the Great Migration out of the so-called "post-slavery" South)... and that by now they have all the credibility of the nutbar cults with a thousand straight failed predictions of Rapture in their track records.

 

[Hypoxia]

It's a funny thing in North America particularly: the xenophobes never, ever seem to realize there's been someone banging their exact same drum ever since the first Irishman stepped off a boat in the wake of the potato famine...

Anglophone newspapers and magazines of the last half of the 19th century (that's 1850-1900, folks) commonly depicted Irish as apes. NO IRISH NEED APPLY and DOGS AND IRISH NOT ALLOWED signs were not uncommon in the USA North. A nasty IR story of the era might feature a nice Anglo-American girl taking up with an Irish brute, anxious to be pounded by that bestial BIC (Big Irish Cock). Eventually, liberals might allow Irish to move next door -- but they wouldn't want their sister marrying one. Sound familiar?

Mediterranean (Italian, Greek, Spanish, Turkish, Levantine) immigrants received similar treatment during their immigration waves. Immigration laws between 1850-1950 excluded various races and nationalities, sometimes specifying gender -- only oriental men, not women, were allowed in as workers for many years, and those men were prohibited from consorting with (let alone marrying) white women. Cue the Native American and black whores.

I can see the merit of IR stories exploring ethnic taboos over time. Maybe follow a line of WASP aunts & nieces facing new taboos each generation: Irish, Italian, Chinese, Lidwac, Cherokee, Black, Chicano, Vietnamese, now Arab. All are InterRacial, but 'race' morphs with time.

 

[CyranoJ]

I can see the merit of IR stories exploring ethnic taboos over time. Maybe follow a line of WASP aunts & nieces facing new taboos each generation: Irish, Italian, Chinese, Lidwac, Cherokee, Black, Chicano, Vietnamese, now Arab. All are InterRacial, but 'race' morphs with time.

That's an interesting idea.

 

[wet_special]

You're on iggy now, wet_special, but since you're presumably being defensive of your moronic supremacist rant: it's basically the difference between someone who writes murder mysteries and someone who professes to believe that murder is okay. I'm the former, you're the latter -- but yep, your creed of hate and ignorance is where the Deep Moral Piety is at, that's the ticket.

I forgot how easily it is to be misunderstood when you disrupt the diversity good mantra. Diversity in itself is not a strength. It is variance of culture and ethnicity and whatnot. How is that a strength, per se? What if people liked to all be a certain way? For instance, people need a common language, common culture, common values and practices to avoid difficult social situations, avoid misunderstandings, etc. These common things are also the basis for trust and commerce. So, get your definition of diversity down first. Calling it into question has nothing to do with white supremacy.

I'm no white supremacist but some cultures are better than others. I take a dim view of cultures that practice theocracy, unlike our secular democracies. I take a dim view of superstitious or tribal cultures, which still exist all over the world. Let's have our diverse cultures if we must, but keep them where they are. Don't bring cruddy cultures into the one that generally agrees should respect women's rights and professes freedom of belief. That's not a diversity we should see as helpful in any way.

 

[katt2007]

We should be careful to bear in mind that there is a difference between bad writing and writing whose content we diapprove of. While is it true that many of the IR stories are badly written, I would hold that is also true for many of the other categories. If, however, you are objecting to the content, why not just read a different story?

Part of the problem may be literotica's lack of a proper synopsis for any of its stories. One line is not enough, an often causes people to start stories whose content is really not for them.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I forgot how easily it is to be misunderstood when you disrupt the diversity good mantra. Diversity in itself is not a strength. It is variance of culture and ethnicity and whatnot. How is that a strength, per se?

There's plenty of research showing that although diverse groups can experience more tension, they also perform better. Diversity creates a smarter group dynamic that's less susceptible to groupthink. Here's some to be going on with:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-diversity-makes-us-smarter/

I'm no white supremacist but

...just as a tip, that sort of "I'm not a racist BUT" disclaimer pretty much never gives the desired impression.

I take a dim view of superstitious or tribal cultures, which still exist all over the world.

yep. ALL over the world. Our "secular western democracies" still have a heaping dose of superstition and tribalism, but we're habituated to it so we don't notice that version. For instance, some of the USA's performative patriotism looks absurd to outsiders - stuff like that business of people freaking out when an athlete fails to put her hand over her heart during the national anthem. And let's not get started on stuff like the USA's fondness for young-Earth creationism, or Rapture theology. People who've grown up in that environment are acclimatised to it and don't realise how bugfuck nuts that looks to much of the outside world.

Motes, beams, etc.

Let's have our diverse cultures if we must, but keep them where they are. Don't bring cruddy cultures into the one that generally agrees should respect women's rights

You know what I don't understand?

Countries like the USA and Australia are full of dudes who talk up a storm about "women's rights" when those rights are being violated by bad brown people from overseas. ISIS enslaving women? Those dudes are ON IT. (Admittedly, their "solution" to the problem might be based on dropping bombs that are just as likely to kill those enslaved women as the bad guys, but still! These guys care about women's rights and they want us all to know about it!)

But somehow, when rights are being violated closer to home, those guys are nowhere to be seen. Preventing rape within the USA is such a low priority for politicians and cops that hundreds of thousands of rape kits go untested, leaving serial rapists to go on doing their thing. Politicians who want to jam ultrasound wands up women's vaginas even when there's no medical necessity for it? Re-elected. Folk like Sean Penn with a history of viciously abusing women? Hollywood darlings.

It's weird. Many of those issues are MUCH cheaper and easier to fix than trying to sort out the Middle East. You'd think those dudes would be leaping at the chance to fix some easy shit right in their own back yards. And yet they don't seem to be interested.

So when I'm talking to somebody I don't know, and the first time I hear them mention women's rights is in the context of "...and that's why those foreign people are bad", I'm afraid my reaction isn't to think "what a lovely person to be so concerned with women's rights!"

Instead, I'm more likely to take them for a xenophobe who's just picked on feminist issues as a socially acceptable cover for their prejudices. I'm sorry to say, that's the sort of vibe I'm getting from you.

But sometimes I misjudge people, and I apologise if I'm doing that here. If I were to look through your posting history, would I find evidence that you're willing to speak up for women's rights even on issues that don't fit neatly into an "other cultures bad" narrative?

 

[Kantarii]

My question is why can't we all just get along together?
Kant

 

[EvilBBC]

Coming on the black man side who a lot of those shlocky stories are somewhat made for. I enjoy it. There's some bad shit, as there is some good shit in most writing. Not everything hits all the time. It all appeals to certain crowds, I mean. I could say the same thing ya'll are saying about incest erotica, cause it don't appeal to me.

Just cause it doesn't appeal to you, don't make it bad at all

 

[sr71plt]

Prejudice doesn't have to be negative toward another race. My interracial stories do, indeed, make the different races important to the story line in most cases (although in some, it's just to provide variety and the "other" race characters aren't treated in any different way). And my stories do usually stereotype blacks--but from my experiences in real life, not from any social stereotypes. They surface the emotions and turn ons I developed from real life situations. And in my erotica the racial difference images invoked are positive, in erotica terms.

 

[EvilBBC]

Also to add on, people are acting like stereotypes are a bad thing...in fiction, they truly aren't, cause the prejudice ain't there cause it isn't real.

Smh, people taking porn too seriously

 

[EvilBBC]

Uh-huh. It's kind of amusing that you start out all pious about racist IR porn and veer straight from there into balls-out supremacist xenophobic dogma. Somehow I don't get the feeling from that that it's the racism in IR porn that you're really objecting to.

IR porn is of course no less potentially problematic a kink than noncon or incest or anything else. Most of it runs on bestializing black-white stereotypes that issue from exactly the same place that leads cops to think they have the right to shoot black kids like game animals. In a perfect world sex is just sex no matter the race of who's involved, if there's a frisson of "interracial" taboo and thrill involved it's because racism is involved. (Also why IRL sex with people who are fully running on an "interracial" fetish mostly sucks, it works best as fantasy.)

So, you know, own that. We don't live in a perfect world and we have lots of kinks about destructive things that in the light of day we (hopefully) know aren't healthy, we can at least be eyes-open about them. A lot of IR stories are unreflective racist trash. Personally the lesson I take from that is that when I write IR I try to put the racism of the kink right up-front and the fact that it so often involves nonwhite people (and white people) role-playing something they're not right up front. OTOH once we're across that Rubicon and all about owning shit, I have no problem with making the sex filthy as hell, and I make no apologies; on account of just generally I have no problems with making the sex filthy, but also if someone has racist kinks I'm mostly not buying the pretense that down deep it's all about fluffy romance. If it's not your cuppa then don't read the story. (Fluffy romance stories about people who happen to be from different backgrounds and doing what they need to do to find love and common ground are fine and good and healthy, but that's not "interracial," that's just romance.)

Never thought I'd see the day when the "social justice" team would wanna make their way and try to mess with porn. Listen here, homie.. You're talking about shit you don't really understand, all interracial shit is built on racist shit...but that doesn't mean it doesn't have any good to it. If liking interracial porn for the skin contrast and the submission aspect of it makes me racist, then I guess I am a racist black man. Preferences and the way we express em doesn't make people racist. Ya need to chill the fuck out and get off the web for a while homie.

 

[CyranoJ]

You're talking about shit you don't really understand, all interracial shit is built on racist shit...but that doesn't mean it doesn't have any good to it. If liking interracial porn for the skin contrast and the submission aspect of it makes me racist, then I guess I am a racist black man.

Bolded phrase is exactly what I was saying (that and that recognizing this is better than ignoring it). Otherwise you're missing the point. I'm in the same boat you are, I'm not pretending otherwise. Having a racial kink doesn't necessarily make you or me or anyone else racist in the way the poster I was responding to is (whether that's the case varies from person to person), and in general I'd far rather see people work that shit out in fantasies than bringing it into politics or pretending it's Serious Morality. (Short version: I just don't have time for people who are actual real-life bigots trying to pretend they can play pious about interracial kink fantasy.)

Generally my rule with sexual fantasy is know the difference between fantasy and reality. If that's being "too serious" then fuck it, guess I'm too serious. Oh well.

 

[EnglishTeacher]

Coming on the black man side who a lot of those shlocky stories are somewhat made for. I enjoy it. There's some bad shit, as there is some good shit in most writing. Not everything hits all the time. It all appeals to certain crowds, I mean. I could say the same thing ya'll are saying about incest erotica, cause it don't appeal to me.

Just cause it doesn't appeal to you, don't make it bad at all

I've got to agree. Don't like it, don't read it/watch it/buy it. Or better yet, just make the stories you're into and fill that hole perceived to be there.

 

[EvilBBC]

Bolded phrase is exactly what I was saying (that and that recognizing this is better than ignoring it). Otherwise you're missing the point. I'm in the same boat you are, I'm not pretending otherwise. Having a racial kink doesn't necessarily make you or me or anyone else racist in the way the poster I was responding to is (whether that's the case varies from person to person), and in general I'd far rather see people work that shit out in fantasies than bringing it into politics or pretending it's Serious Morality. (Short version: I just don't have time for people who are actual real-life bigots trying to pretend they can play pious about interracial kink fantasy.)

Generally my rule with sexual fantasy is know the difference between fantasy and reality. If that's being "too serious" then fuck it, guess I'm too serious. Oh well.

Then I must of completely misunderstood what you were getting at man, cause it kind of sounded like you were whining a bit about how "none of these stories are serious enough for me"/"all this stuff is racist and I don't like it"

 

[NOIRTRASH]

I'm changing the flavor of my IR stories. In the newest a white wife gives birth to the Halfrican from Hell, a kid with Super Hyperactivity and violence issues, and his black father gets a cap in his ass from a teen miscreant he collided with in the hood. White hubby takes up with her best friend who likes needle dick white boys who make good money.

 

[CyranoJ]

Then I must of completely misunderstood what you were getting at man, cause it kind of sounded like you were whining a bit about how "none of these stories are serious enough for me"/"all this stuff is racist and I don't like it"

If I meant either of those things I would have said them, but I guess I can see why you're confused.

What I said is many IR stories run on stereotypes that are dangerous in the real world (has nothing to do with whether they're hot stories or good at what they're doing, it's just a fact that that's what it runs on); and that a lot of stories reproduce the racism in the kink without much thought. To be clear, whether they're "serious enough for me" is neither here nor there, it's fucking porn for Christ's sake. All I was saying is that if the racism of the kink actually is something you notice, there are ways you can write it that aren't just recycling stereotypes. I prefer to write that way, but that has nothing to do with Morally Judging everyone who doesn't write that way (I save the Judging for people who actually profess to believe in racism IRL).

 

[Hypoxia]

What I said is many IR stories run on stereotypes that are dangerous in the real world (has nothing to do with whether they're hot stories or good at what they're doing, it's just a fact that that's what it runs on); and that a lot of stories reproduce the racism in the kink without much thought. To be clear, whether they're "serious enough for me" is neither here nor there, it's fucking porn for Christ's sake. All I was saying is that if the racism of the kink actually is something you notice, there are ways you can write it that aren't just recycling stereotypes.

Not just LIT or pr0n; much fiction invokes or relies on stereotypes. Cue the spear-carriers. Paint a cartoon character as an angry horny BBC, or a Southern sorority girl, or a gay atheist communist vegan professor (he's in the latest issue of Smithsonian Magazine), et fucking cetera. Maybe play with the stereotype: the BBC is quiet, cultured; the sorority girl is smart, liberal; the prof dresses like a cattle rancher. But the stereotype is a descriptive shortcut.

How do we use those cartoon characters? Do we explore them or exploit them? Do we consciously promote racist stereotypes? Is every black male a brute, every black female a slut or welfare queen, every Mexican a thieving lazy shit, every Jew a conniving finagler, etc? How do we treat the taboos associated with each?

I'd like to see IR stories in new contexts, not traditional USA racism. I've read that Japanese culture is very racist re: Westerners, Koreans, others, and that Russians can be very racist vs their non-Russian minorities. I know Ladino (white) Mexicans can despise Indio (native) and Mestizo (mixed) peoples. Before colonial subjects started immigrating, the main divisions in Britain were based on class, not race, but with similar attitudes and consequences. And Europeans now have plenty of African, Arab, Muslim, Asian etc folks to hate and fuck-over. Cue the studly ISIS recruiters.

Meanwhile, I'll keep writing multiracial hookups into my stories. (When I get back to writing, anyway.) Some will be cartoonish. Hey, this is smut!

 

[NOIRTRASH]

I go with who I collide with in the real world. Real People shape my mind. Nice people are about as common as two headed chickens. I read it last night in a popular German novel, THE BETTER YOU KNOW SOMEONE THE MORE YOU WANT TO BE A HERMIT. Its true.

 

[LizzysFriend]

Not just LIT or pr0n; much fiction invokes or relies on stereotypes. Cue the spear-carriers. Paint a cartoon character as an angry horny BBC, or a Southern sorority girl, or a gay atheist communist vegan professor (he's in the latest issue of Smithsonian Magazine), et fucking cetera. Maybe play with the stereotype: the BBC is quiet, cultured; the sorority girl is smart, liberal; the prof dresses like a cattle rancher. But the stereotype is a descriptive shortcut.

How do we use those cartoon characters? Do we explore them or exploit them? Do we consciously promote racist stereotypes? Is every black male a brute, every black female a slut or welfare queen, every Mexican a thieving lazy shit, every Jew a conniving finagler, etc? How do we treat the taboos associated with each?

I'd like to see IR stories in new contexts, not traditional USA racism. I've read that Japanese culture is very racist re: Westerners, Koreans, others, and that Russians can be very racist vs their non-Russian minorities. I know Ladino (white) Mexicans can despise Indio (native) and Mestizo (mixed) peoples. Before colonial subjects started immigrating, the main divisions in Britain were based on class, not race, but with similar attitudes and consequences. And Europeans now have plenty of African, Arab, Muslim, Asian etc folks to hate and fuck-over. Cue the studly ISIS recruiters.

Meanwhile, I'll keep writing multiracial hookups into my stories. (When I get back to writing, anyway.) Some will be cartoonish. Hey, this is smut!

I have no idea why this country "thinks" it has a race problem. I have traveled the world and by far USA is the place to be in that if you want to get ahead, you can with work. What this country doesn't do is tell the truth. They lie to the children in schools. They lie on the news. They lie in customer service. For instance.... Called my internet provider, placed on hold and heard "Your call is very important to us...." for forty freaking minutes. A big business, lying to me over and over, before their operator finally picks up. Why not say, "To keep cost down, we have few operators that can pick up at this moment, you have been placed in line..."