Defining Love

[GiveawayGirl]

I've not had anything worthwhile to contribute to this thread for awhile, but Red and Shoshana have hit on something at the forefront of my mind lately. Forgiveness.

Forgiveness is something that I do not truly struggle with. It's the "lessons learned" that Shoshana speaks of that I have a hard time getting right.

To forgive someone that I love is not a difficult thing for me. I spend a great deal of time trying to understand so that I may find the path to forgiveness. I think there is some truth to the statement that when you love someone, you can forgive them nearly anything; at least for me there is.

But on the opposite side of that coin is the ability to learn a lesson from the situation while you are working toward forgiveness. I have a tendency to forgive and forget, which only leads me to leave myself open for the need to forgive over and over again.

The trick is to learn how to forgive without allowing yourself to be put in the same situation that caused the pain in the first place.

This love thing is tricky.......it has the ability to turn a reasonably intelligent person into a complete idiot without warning.

 

[midwestyankee]

I've not had anything worthwhile to contribute to this thread for awhile, but Red and Shoshana have hit on something at the forefront of my mind lately. Forgiveness.

Forgiveness is something that I do not truly struggle with. It's the "lessons learned" that Shoshana speaks of that I have a hard time getting right.

To forgive someone that I love is not a difficult thing for me. I spend a great deal of time trying to understand so that I may find the path to forgiveness. I think there is some truth to the statement that when you love someone, you can forgive them nearly anything; at least for me there is.

But on the opposite side of that coin is the ability to learn a lesson from the situation while you are working toward forgiveness. I have a tendency to forgive and forget, which only leads me to leave myself open for the need to forgive over and over again.

The trick is to learn how to forgive without allowing yourself to be put in the same situation that caused the pain in the first place.

This love thing is tricky.......it has the ability to turn a reasonably intelligent person into a complete idiot without warning.

GG, I've read and re-read this three times now and I still haven't gotten my arms around a couple of your points. But I will and I promise you a reply worthy of the depth of your offering.

 

[GiveawayGirl]

GG, I've read and re-read this three times now and I still haven't gotten my arms around a couple of your points. But I will and I promise you a reply worthy of the depth of your offering.

A reply is not necessary Yankee.......sometimes it is just good to share a thought out loud in order to hasten the thought process.

 

[midwestyankee]

A reply is not necessary Yankee.......sometimes it is just good to share a thought out loud in order to hasten the thought process.

True. However, the spirit of this thread is learning and my first reaction to your post is that maybe I have some learning to do. And when I have understood your thoughts, I think it will be equally important for me to put my response in writing to solidify it.

A for you this fine Monday.

 

[GiveawayGirl]

And when I have understood your thoughts...

Good luck on the impossible.....LOL

 

[Shoshisexy]

Oddly enough...your post made perfect sense to me, GG. *LOL*

The learning thing is difficult, I agree. There is also the learning the right lesson as well.

I think some people are at a great disadvantage when it comes to forgiving. They are taught from when they are very young that to forgive, one must also forget. I was never taught that. I was taught that forgiveness is incredibly important in any relationship, but forgetting the trespass just means you are going to be walked on again. And my parents didn't name me Mat.

GG, I am not saying it's easy and never will. I just think it is worth it in most cases.

I have also said, and will say again...There does come a time when you have to say no more. And either allow someone to walk out of your life or walk out of theirs, regardless of the love you may share. Yes, it hurts...but it causes less hurt in the long run.

 

[midwestyankee]

re: Forgiveness as an act of love

Please allow me to do some thinking "aloud" here.

I said earlier that I was quite certain I do not know how to give forgiveness. The more I reflect on this and the posts that both Shoshana and GG have made on the topic, the more I realize that it's more complex than that. It's not just a case of not knowing how to forgive that I see but an inability to respond appropriately to the hurt in the first place.

GG said that she spends time trying to understand so that she can find the path to forgiveness. And both she and Shoshana spoke of the importance of learning lessons from the events that call for forgiveness. As I reflect on my own experiences with forgiveness and the kinds of things that should prompt forgiveness I see that understanding and learning truly are essential ingredients.

One of the essential elements in love is the willingness to work to understand your beloved. When we fail to make that effort we fail our beloved. Now, we may find that we still can not accept what we find when we do understand, but first we must seek to understand. Of this much I am certain.

So what happens when we can not accept what we find after we have come to understand the beloved's actions that we sought to forgive? What does this mean?

Some will say that in love you can forgive just about anything. By this logic, if you can not find it in your heart to forgive a beloved then you must no longer love that person. But if love means extending yourself to help your beloved grow, does it not also mean that we accept the flaws in our beloved? I think that loving someone takes many forms and just possibly we can continue to love someone despite some hurt that we can not forgive.

Then again, perhaps forgiving is the same thing as reaching an understanding of the hurt and letting it pass into memory so that it does not occupy our present mind. Perhaps what I think of as an inability to forgive is just an unwillingness to let something fade into memory. A certain hardness of the heart, as some might put it.

Ah yes, there is also this matter of learning lessons. What do we learn when we get hurt unpredictably by a beloved? We learn the beloved is capable of harmfulness of a nearly unspeakable power. We learn that we have granted our beloved a power over us that is virtually that of life and death. We learn that in order to survive, we must steel ourselves against a repeat performance. But how do you prepare for the unpredictable?

Yes indeed, how do you steel yourself against the unpredictable? Is there a love so strong as to shield one against such a thing?

 

[kayte]

Great thread {{{{{{Yank}}}}}}

 

[DLL]

Originally posted by kayte
Great thread {{{{{{Yank}}}}}}

 

[midwestyankee]

Great thread {{{{{{Yank}}}}}}

Thanks, kayte.

I hope you'll take a few minutes sometime to post a few thoughts for us.

 

[Wyldfire]

Re: hold you tight

First off I just want to wrap you up close and hold you tight
Then I want to send someone with a big stick to visit your brother and inflict a little fear into his eyes. Step-dad should keep his bable to himself.


Jim, that'd be OUR job But she doesn't want him ta feel fear She Loves her bro an don wanna see him harmed..... I admire her bein willin ta admit that despite th fact that he hurt her she still loves him fer it. it makes me see how special an wonderful Sho is..... I myself was an abused child too.(If ya wanna know ask Sho) I myself could NEVER claim ta love my Mother fer what she allowed an wgat she had me put thro...... Shoshanna is th mosy wonderful person I have ever met an I am proud ta say I am in so much Love wit her that th idea a us bein apart HURTS me..... As it does th man in th middle a th two a us. Sho wanted me ta bare all here so here I am an doin this fer her...... This thread has been VERY educational ta me I thank y'all fer startin it up

 

[Wyldfire]

Re: Re: Sacrifice

Not only do you have a gift for empathy, but you have one for courageous telling as well.

Yeah she does I'm th Love she was talkin bout all. She has helped me more n I c'n imagine fer th way she has started ta get me ta think an feel....... I am so grateful Shoshanna has come inta our lives

 

[midwestyankee]

Re: Re: Re: Sacrifice

Not only do you have a gift for empathy, but you have one for courageous telling as well.

Yeah she does I'm th Love she was talkin bout all. She has helped me more n I c'n imagine fer th way she has started ta get me ta think an feel....... I am so grateful Shoshanna has come inta our lives

Damsel, thanks so much for taking the time to post here. It's so much easier to love someone we admire. And I can understand your admiration of Shoshana for she is a truly wonderful person.

 

[heavenlyeyes925]

Can anyone really define love? Is it not just what is in your own heart and what makes you feel good?

 

[midwestyankee]

Can anyone really define love? Is it not just what is in your own heart and what makes you feel good?

Many great thinkers have provided definitions. If love were different for each of us, we would never be able to talk about it because no one else would know what we are talking about.

Perhaps the thread is poorly named and should have been called something like, Let's talk about love. In any event, I invite you to read the many pages of posts here by many different people and see for yourself that we mostly agree on several points about love and thoroughly enjoy talking about the ways in which our own experiences with it differ.

 

[heavenlyeyes925]

Many great thinkers have provided definitions. If love were different for each of us, we would never be able to talk about it because no one else would know what we are talking about.

Perhaps the thread is poorly named and should have been called something like, Let's talk about love. In any event, I invite you to read the many pages of posts here by many different people and see for yourself that we mostly agree on several points about love and thoroughly enjoy talking about the ways in which our own experiences with it differ.

I am say it is different for each of us and that is what keeps us talking is it not? What each of us is expressing is our experiences with Love. It is finding someone that thinks like you about love and that's when it clicks.

I have been in Love several times and each time it was different than the last one and that because I see things differently and grow.

 

[midwestyankee]

I am say it is different for each of us and that is what keeps us talking is it not? What each of us is expressing is our experiences with Love. It is finding someone that thinks like you about love and that's when it clicks.

I have been in Love several times and each time it was different than the last one and that because I see things differently and grow.

I quite agree that each experience of love seems to be different in some ways. And certainly our own growth makes a difference in how we approach love each new time.

I am not the person I was yesterday simply because I have a day's worth of experiences that I had not had then. We all grow a little, or at least change a little, with the passage of time. And these changes make our later experiences quite different from our earlier ones.

My only point in saying that there are some similarities in all experiences of love is that if there weren't some things the same we would never even recognize them all as love.

It's the search for the elusive constants in love that keeps me talking here and, I think, keeps many people interested in the subject.

One last thought: if we weren't fairly sure that love had a common look or shape, we could never say that we were looking for love in all the wrong places. We wouldn't even know what to look for.

 

[heavenlyeyes925]

I quite agree that each experience of love seems to be different in some ways. And certainly our own growth makes a difference in how we approach love each new time.

I am not the person I was yesterday simply because I have a day's worth of experiences that I had not had then. We all grow a little, or at least change a little, with the passage of time. And these changes make our later experiences quite different from our earlier ones.

My only point in saying that there are some similarities in all experiences of love is that if there weren't some things the same we would never even recognize them all as love.

It's the search for the elusive constants in love that keeps me talking here and, I think, keeps many people interested in the subject.

One last thought: if we weren't fairly sure that love had a common look or shape, we could never say that we were looking for love in all the wrong places. We wouldn't even know what to look for.

Very good and well said.

 

[MysteriousRomantic]

What a thread!!!!!!!!!!

Please forgive the first little comment above. Nothing like touching on a subject that has been the talk of all ages. May you allow me to please share my thoughts on this subject. If I become too long winded I do apologise.


I for one truly believe that thee are many types of love that we are capable. Many of these are not based on the family either. I have many female friends that I can say I love. But this love os on of mostly repect for who they are. It is a type opf love that does not ever for myself, bring feelings of romance, eternity with them, or those things that we want out of a partner. I for one can honestly say that with the women I have had in my life in the past, I never truly loved them the correct way as a partner in my life.

When there is a special lady in my life that the romantic feelings enter, and this person truly touches my heart, then there are a completely different set of emotions and commitments involved. I consider myself a giver in a relationship and that comes through loud and clear with one of these partners. Total commitment on my part in these areas, monogomy, compassion, caring, nurturing and totaly giving of myself. Her needs are first priority, even over my own. There is nothing she could not ask me to do (within reason) that I would not do for her. I can tell he difference between the two types of love just by touch.

 

[midwestyankee]

Re: What a thread!!!!!!!!!!

Please forgive the first little comment above. Nothing like touching on a subject that has been the talk of all ages. May you allow me to please share my thoughts on this subject. If I become too long winded I do apologise.


I for one truly believe that thee are many types of love that we are capable. Many of these are not based on the family either. I have many female friends that I can say I love. But this love os on of mostly repect for who they are. It is a type opf love that does not ever for myself, bring feelings of romance, eternity with them, or those things that we want out of a partner. I for one can honestly say that with the women I have had in my life in the past, I never truly loved them the correct way as a partner in my life.

When there is a special lady in my life that the romantic feelings enter, and this person truly touches my heart, then there are a completely different set of emotions and commitments involved. I consider myself a giver in a relationship and that comes through loud and clear with one of these partners. Total commitment on my part in these areas, monogomy, compassion, caring, nurturing and totaly giving of myself. Her needs are first priority, even over my own. There is nothing she could not ask me to do (within reason) that I would not do for her. I can tell he difference between the two types of love just by touch.

MR, thanks for stopping by and sharing some thoughts. I hope you'll drop in again as the discussion progresses.

Something that many people report is a feeling of electricity when they touch their beloved. This seems to be especially true in the early stages when anticipation fills our time apart from our beloved.

I can almost sense that first jolt of charge now, as I imagine it. I approach my beloved, perhaps from the side or from behind and bring my hand to her neck for a first caress. And as our skin touches for the first time I feel a wave of ecstasy pass through my body that is nearly transcendent. Somehow I thought of that when I read your line, "I can tell the difference between the two types of love just by touch."

Thanks again for stopping by and giving me an excuse to do a little rambling of my own.

 

[Shoshisexy]

*blushes profusely*

Damsel flatters me far too much, as do you, MY.

I do agree that there has to be something that people share to share love, but I also have to say that Damsel and I( not to leave out our man, but we are the ones posting) are as diametrically opposite from each other as can be, really.

We also view love very differently, although that changes day by day. The more we talk to each other, the more we love each other. The more we discover about each other, good, bad, or indifferent, the more we want to love each other.

I know things about Damsel that she doesn't tell everyone and vice versa. In our own way, we each have parts of ourselves that we hide from the world, but we can share them with each other and our man. That is why we very specifically use the term Trinity; to us it means a complete bonding and sharing.

We know things are not going to be easy. We do not expect them to be. We are all going to have to make changes in our lives and be willing to compromise. We will make mistakes, have made mistakes, and will have to forgive.

The thing that makes it love is the willingness to do all of the above.



Damsel and Swain's Sho

 

[midwestyankee]

*blushes profusely*

Damsel flatters me far too much, as do you, MY.

I do agree that there has to be something that people share to share love, but I also have to say that Damsel and I( not to leave out our man, but we are the ones posting) are as diametrically opposite from each other as can be, really.

We also view love very differently, although that changes day by day. The more we talk to each other, the more we love each other. The more we discover about each other, good, bad, or indifferent, the more we want to love each other.

I know things about Damsel that she doesn't tell everyone and vice versa. In our own way, we each have parts of ourselves that we hide from the world, but we can share them with each other and our man. That is why we very specifically use the term Trinity; to us it means a complete bonding and sharing.

We know things are not going to be easy. We do not expect them to be. We are all going to have to make changes in our lives and be willing to compromise. We will make mistakes, have made mistakes, and will have to forgive.

The thing that makes it love is the willingness to do all of the above.



Damsel and Swain's Sho

Shoshana, you touched on a couple of things here that I think are very important. They are contained in the idea that as you discover more about your beloved you want even more to love her.

To me, discovery is part and parcel of the process of loving. I want to learn everything there is to know about my beloved. I want to know what goes in and out of every cell in her mind. Not to be intrusive but to know, to really know her.

The other is the want. For a love to be true, it must be an act of will. You have to will yourself to action for the sake of your beloved. So it is crucial that you want to love. It seems to me that a love that seems to arrive as if by accident will be fleeting at best, and as weak as gauze in any event. But a love you want - ah, that is the stuff of passion and depth.

If you can say to your beloved, I want to love you, then you have stripped your soul bare and risked it in the fire. When she cradles your soul above the flame and cools it with her kiss, you have stepped into eternity.

 

[Wyldfire]

I'm aready takin care a tha soul too MY..... LOL..... I mean c'mon.... This is th woman who's been teachin me HOW ta love an ta BE IN LOVE....... I'd do anythin ta keep her happy an safe an LOVED.........

 

[Shoshisexy]

And she wonders why I love her so...

*hugs Damsel*

You have handed to me the most precious possesion a person has, your heart and soul. Swain and I cradle it together and will never let you be hurt again.

Love is about appreciating the person for what they are, what they can be, and what they will be. If you cannot appreciate all of this, you grow apart and the love dies, like a tree that has been attacked by insects. It may be fast, or it may take years, but the death is going to happen, nonetheless unless something drastic is done.

 

[Wyldfire]

Mornin all..... Now ta answer Sho now tha I'm not likely ta get all teary on th subject....... Yer right hon..... I can't wait fer th day when I get ta SHOW Sho my love up close an personal like instead of the madness she goes thro when she gets ta missin us..... We miss her sometimes so bad it actually feels like a pain, a real pain........... That's one a th biggest parts a love tha Sho has taught me by example... That ya c'n miss th ones ya love so bad an be so strong......... If I was th one a our Trinity ta be on my own I'd go crazy...... Yet she sits here an keeps helpin an givin advice ta others even if she does hurt from missing Me an th Man's sorry butts........ That's somethin tha makes me realize how broken I really used ta be before the two came inta my life...{blush}