Defining Love

[midwestyankee]

I am uncomfortable with tacking the concept of spirituality onto it. To be capable of love, the individual needs to be reasonably sane and stable.

Additionally I think you are confusing emotions which promote harmony and growth in a relationship, from the purely selfish emotions.

A purely selfish emotion might prompt you to to think. "I wonder if I can get her to give me a blowjob tonight?". While a relationship building emotion may prompt you to an action like doing the dishes while she sleeps, or cleaning up the living room.

We have these selfish emotions all the time. We can't help it, its part of who and what we are. The difference is most of us rarely act on them. A stable individual knows instinctively that some actions will be recieved gratefully and others will be rejected forcefully.

I don't care much for the term "self love". Its too narcistic for my taste. Self Respect is a better and more apt term. I don't "love" myself, I love my wife. What I feel about myself and how I feel about her are to incomparable sets of emotions.

So let us say that a person cannot love another unless they are reasonably stable and have a good self image for themselves instead. And more to the point, a very "self oriented" individual will find it difficult to experience and contribute to a relationship with another individual.

The idea of including spiritual growth in the definition is Pecks, as in his view one's highest purpose in life is to grow spiritually. And the highest purpose of love, in his view, is to help our beloved achieve this spiritual growth.

In my life I tend to think simply in terms of growth. If I am attending to my partner's growth, then I am acting in a loving way. If my actions impede her growth, or prevent it, then those are not at all loving actions.

I agree, then, that you have to be a reasonably stable person to contribute lovingly to a relationship. Otherwise, you are likely to be too neurotic or too character-deficient to be able to extend yourself for someone else's betterment.

 

[wicked woman]

Just feeling so much love at the moment thought I should revive this thread

 

[midwestyankee]

Just feeling so much love at the moment thought I should revive this thread

Care to elaborate, illuminate, so we may ruminate?

 

[wicked woman]

Originally posted by midwestyankee
Care to elaborate, illuminate, so we may ruminate?

hmmm not sure I do....let me think about that.....ok let me try.

Had a long talk today with an ex-lover. We're ex not because we don't love each other but because of circumstances that make it impossible for us to be together. (I know it's vague but allow me this...and no neither of us is married.) The lover relationship didn't end as either of us would have wanted. It was too painful and uncomfortable to try to be 'just' friends and yet neither of us could let the other go completely. We both wanted to try to find a way that we could still be in each other's life.

What I saw today was that some how we may have found a solution. A way where we have passed through the pain and awkwardness so that our love for each other is still there but in a different way. I'm not sure I can explain how though. It's more than as good friends but less than lovers who will live their lives together. We are still able to fill the other's being with sheer happiness just by our presence.,,well not even that...with our words. We still connect on the same level being able to read and understand the other's thoughts and feelings...to be comfortable talking about or sharing anything and everything. We still want only the best for the other and would do anything to make that happen.

But the focus has changed. I can tell him he'll make a great Dad one day and not be sad that it won't be for our child. We can talk about whether any one else is entering our hearts. I could attend his wedding and be truly happy for him knowing that he'd found his beloved (to use your word). Our relationship has changed ...evolved...I can't explain where it is...but it allows us to still love each other...to still have that connection and wanting to make the other happy but without the standard resolution in marriage or as a couple. (which doesn't mean I wouldn't attack him given the chance )

It was just nice to feel our love for each other again...we'd hidden it a bit because it was so painful.

Not sure where it takes the 'defining love' theme though Yankee. Maybe a bit in different ways to love a person. Maybe a bit of can you love more than one person at a time. Just know we both made each other very happy today.

 

[midwestyankee]

hmmm not sure I do....let me think about that.....ok let me try.

Had a long talk today with an ex-lover. We're ex not because we don't love each other but because of circumstances that make it impossible for us to be together. (I know it's vague but allow me this...and no neither of us is married.) The lover relationship didn't end as either of us would have wanted. It was too painful and uncomfortable to try to be 'just' friends and yet neither of us could let the other go completely. We both wanted to try to find a way that we could still be in each other's life.

What I saw today was that some how we may have found a solution. A way where we have passed through the pain and awkwardness so that our love for each other is still there but in a different way. I'm not sure I can explain how though. It's more than as good friends but less than lovers who will live their lives together. We are still able to fill the other's being with sheer happiness just by our presence.,,well not even that...with our words. We still connect on the same level being able to read and understand the other's thoughts and feelings...to be comfortable talking about or sharing anything and everything. We still want only the best for the other and would do anything to make that happen.

But the focus has changed. I can tell him he'll make a great Dad one day and not be sad that it won't be for our child. We can talk about whether any one else is entering our hearts. I could attend his wedding and be truly happy for him knowing that he'd found his beloved (to use your word). Our relationship has changed ...evolved...I can't explain where it is...but it allows us to still love each other...to still have that connection and wanting to make the other happy but without the standard resolution in marriage or as a couple. (which doesn't mean I wouldn't attack him given the chance )

It was just nice to feel our love for each other again...we'd hidden it a bit because it was so painful.

Not sure where it takes the 'defining love' theme though Yankee. Maybe a bit in different ways to love a person. Maybe a bit of can you love more than one person at a time. Just know we both made each other very happy today.

WW, thank you so very much for this description.

First off, I have a single and simple response: this is, indeed, a deep and powerful love that you describe.

This is the type of love that I have been trying, rather awkwardly, to describe throughout this thread. Here, let me allow you to say it again as you did it so cleanly:

We are still able to fill the other's being with sheer happiness just by our presence.,,well not even that...with our words. We still connect on the same level being able to read and understand the other's thoughts and feelings...to be comfortable talking about or sharing anything and everything. We still want only the best for the other and would do anything to make that happen.

I also believe you are right when you suggest that it is this type of love that allows us to love more than one person at a time. When your love is focused on the betterment of your beloved, it seems to me, it's possible to hold more than one person in that same position. I am sure it takes a great deal of psychic energy and personal commitment, but I believe it's possible.

Again, thanks so much for this illuminating post.

 

[wicked woman]

Originally posted by midwestyankee
WW, thank you so very much for this description.

First off, I have a single and simple response: this is, indeed, a deep and powerful love that you describe.

This is the type of love that I have been trying, rather awkwardly, to describe throughout this thread. Here, let me allow you to say it again as you did it so cleanly:



I also believe you are right when you suggest that it is this type of love that allows us to love more than one person at a time. When your love is focused on the betterment of your beloved, it seems to me, it's possible to hold more than one person in that same position. I am sure it takes a great deal of psychic energy and personal commitment, but I believe it's possible.

Again, thanks so much for this illuminating post.

hehe so you were able to make some sense of my babbling And I didn't even cry when you commented on it being a deep and powerful love.

 

[midwestyankee]

hehe so you were able to make some sense of my babbling And I didn't even cry when you commented on it being a deep and powerful love.

Maybe I'll have to sprinkle some fresh-cut onion peelings in my posts then.

It wasn't a babble; it made perfect sense.

 

[wicked woman]

Originally posted by midwestyankee
Maybe I'll have to sprinkle some fresh-cut onion peelings in my posts then.

It wasn't a babble; it made perfect sense.

Don't you dare!

Now can I go back to thinking about attacking him....or you? oops different kind of love....again.

 

[midwestyankee]

Wicked Woman's posts brought me back to something I have been thinking about for a while: the potential we have to love more than one person at a time.

I believe it is possible, for more than one reason. First off, we all find it completely normal to love more than one family member. So why would that capacity not carry over to other areas, other kinds of love?

Second, many people continue to love someone they have lost or from whom they have parted. Yet they also find another beloved sometimes and thus have two loves at the same time.

And I believe that some people are blessed with the ability to hold love in their heart for more than one person simultaneously.

This may seem almost blasphemous to say, as we approach Valentine's Day, but I think this is an important issue for many who spend time on Lit.

 

[Ammo44]

Wicked Woman's posts brought me back to something I have been thinking about for a while: the potential we have to love more than one person at a time.

I believe it is possible, for more than one reason. First off, we all find it completely normal to love more than one family member. So why would that capacity not carry over to other areas, other kinds of love?

Second, many people continue to love someone they have lost or from whom they have parted. Yet they also find another beloved sometimes and thus have two loves at the same time.

And I believe that some people are blessed with the ability to hold love in their heart for more than one person simultaneously.

This may seem almost blasphemous to say, as we approach Valentine's Day, but I think this is an important issue for many who spend time on Lit.

I agree MWY..........it is not blasphemous.....only a fact. Speaking for myself, I do love more than 1.....and quite enjoy it.....in many ways.....

 

[Shoshisexy]

I would have to agree with y'all that one can love more than one person at a time. These loves are deep and powerful, but not necessarily romantic...although I agree that, given the chance, there might be attacking...

But...I am groping my way in the dark with the multiple romantic loves. I am involved in a trinity that has yet to actually meet. We call ourselves a trinity because there is a meeting of the minds and hearts in ways none of us has ever known. Since I have never been in love (as I have defined it previously in the thread), I don't know if I can be in love with both of these people at the same time...heck, I am not even sure I can be in love with one of them...although I feel pretty positive abaout it.

Those are my thoughts...

 

[midwestyankee]

I agree MWY..........it is not blasphemous.....only a fact. Speaking for myself, I do love more than 1.....and quite enjoy it.....in many ways.....

Ammo, good for you. I wonder if you'd care to elaborate on some of the many ways you are able to enjoy more than one love?

 

[midwestyankee]

I would have to agree with y'all that one can love more than one person at a time. These loves are deep and powerful, but not necessarily romantic...although I agree that, given the chance, there might be attacking...

But...I am groping my way in the dark with the multiple romantic loves. I am involved in a trinity that has yet to actually meet. We call ourselves a trinity because there is a meeting of the minds and hearts in ways none of us has ever known. Since I have never been in love (as I have defined it previously in the thread), I don't know if I can be in love with both of these people at the same time...heck, I am not even sure I can be in love with one of them...although I feel pretty positive abaout it.

Those are my thoughts...

Shoshana, it's good to hear from you again, and especially when you can report such happiness!

I'm delighted to hear you tell of your trinity. Would you be willing to tell us how it came to be, and how it is progressing (we don't need names or specifics, of course)?

 

[Shoshisexy]

Well I met someone on another adult site...He is a wonderful person in a bad situation. He wants out of it and is working his hardest to get out. He's not married, but he is divorced and has a child with the ex. He cannot leave the state with the child as that is in the custody papers. He's working on that, though.

She is a wonderful woman who has been through hell and come out the other side. He and she were friends for quite a while before he and I met online, but nothing had happened between them. She got into a bad situation and he 'saved' her.

At this point he and I had gone from being a romantic item to good friends because of an argument. I was dating around here and he and she started a relationship. He and I started talking more and more as I was having difficulties here and suddenly we found ourselves involved again, but with another to add.

They live in another state, but are working very hard on coming here. After an unspecified period to find out if the mental and emotional connection carries over into the physical...we will most likely be moving on to another state, depending on work and that type of thing.

Those are the plans...but they are all up in the air until we meet and the feelings are confirmed in person. They are aware of this and we are all very honest about it.

 

[midwestyankee]

Well I met someone on another adult site...He is a wonderful person in a bad situation. He wants out of it and is working his hardest to get out. He's not married, but he is divorced and has a child with the ex. He cannot leave the state with the child as that is in the custody papers. He's working on that, though.

She is a wonderful woman who has been through hell and come out the other side. He and she were friends for quite a while before he and I met online, but nothing had happened between them. She got into a bad situation and he 'saved' her.

At this point he and I had gone from being a romantic item to good friends because of an argument. I was dating around here and he and she started a relationship. He and I started talking more and more as I was having difficulties here and suddenly we found ourselves involved again, but with another to add.

They live in another state, but are working very hard on coming here. After an unspecified period to find out if the mental and emotional connection carries over into the physical...we will most likely be moving on to another state, depending on work and that type of thing.

Those are the plans...but they are all up in the air until we meet and the feelings are confirmed in person. They are aware of this and we are all very honest about it.

This is quite an unusual arrangement. I wish you plenty of patience, courage, and fortitude as you continue it.

 

[wicked woman]

I can't believe with all the love floating around yesterday that this thread didn't pop up.

 

[Shoshisexy]

Considering my mood and the fact that my friend in CA enfded up in the ER...Probably a good thing. *LOL*

 

[midwestyankee]

I can't believe with all the love floating around yesterday that this thread didn't pop up.

Good point.

Maybe everyone was too busy enjoying their love to put any energy into defining it.

But maybe now some people have a new perspective and would like to comment?

Hope so. This has been fun and informative and provocative.

 

[midwestyankee]

Considering my mood and the fact that my friend in CA enfded up in the ER...Probably a good thing. *LOL*

That's a shame. I hope your friend is better now.

 

[Shoshisexy]

Hmmm..well...he sounded less dead on the last message I got from him. I will hopefully be able to actually talk to him tomorrow. *sniggles*

As for the nature of love...I think a HUGE component of love is forgiveness. We have to forgive others and ourselves.

 

[redrider4u]

Hmmm..well...he sounded less dead on the last message I got from him. I will hopefully be able to actually talk to him tomorrow. *sniggles*

As for the nature of love...I think a HUGE component of love is forgiveness. We have to forgive others and ourselves.

I don't know Sho, it's really hard to forgive sometimes. It says easy and does hard.

When you have been speared, it is really difficult to forgive.

I just don't know.

 

[Shoshisexy]

Oh...I never said it was easy.

Forgiveness is an integral part of love. It is also very difficult, which is why humans coined the phrase, " To err is human, to forgive Divine."

I spoke earlier in this thread about my friends in CA. Well...we have all made mistakes in our lives. We all want a fresh start, preferably with each other. We have all even made mistakes with each other...but...we love each other. So we forgive. No. It's not easy. They have hurt me and I have hurt them. I have triggered memories in one of them I wouldn't wish on the worst person I knew. I have triggered pain I cannot even begin to comprehend in them both, just by saying the wrong thing. They have caused me pain by doing or saying the wrong thing at a specific moment...

But I was taught that we cannot ask forgiveness from G-d for something before asking forgiveness from the person we hurt (not getting all religious here, just explaining, okay). Notice I did not say getting forgiveness, but asking.

Asking is the first step. Asking sincerely, that is. And there are things that people have done to me that I will never be around them, ever again. I may have forgiven them, but I don't trust them and never will.

In a roundabout way I think I have made my point...or at least made a point?

I guess I am just trying to say that if love is there...forgiveness may not be easy, but the desire for it is.

 

[redrider4u]

Oh...I never said it was easy.

Forgiveness is an integral part of love. It is also very difficult, which is why humans coined the phrase, " To err is human, to forgive Divine."

I spoke earlier in this thread about my friends in CA. Well...we have all made mistakes in our lives. We all want a fresh start, preferably with each other. We have all even made mistakes with each other...but...we love each other. So we forgive. No. It's not easy. They have hurt me and I have hurt them. I have triggered memories in one of them I wouldn't wish on the worst person I knew. I have triggered pain I cannot even begin to comprehend in them both, just by saying the wrong thing. They have caused me pain by doing or saying the wrong thing at a specific moment...

But I was taught that we cannot ask forgiveness from G-d for something before asking forgiveness from the person we hurt (not getting all religious here, just explaining, okay). Notice I did not say getting forgiveness, but asking.

Asking is the first step. Asking sincerely, that is. And there are things that people have done to me that I will never be around them, ever again. I may have forgiven them, but I don't trust them and never will.

In a roundabout way I think I have made my point...or at least made a point?

I guess I am just trying to say that if love is there...forgiveness may not be easy, but the desire for it is. [/QUOT



I am not scared to inovoke God. Faith has helped me. It is just difficult to accept the end. She just hurt me. It's very simple.

 

[Shoshisexy]

I agree, pain hurts. And endings hurt.

But pain eventually starts to lessen...And the lessons learned...they never go away.

I am not saying that you aren't feeling pain...and mad...and hurt...

Love and life are both like that.

It takes a long time to understand that...and I am still learning and will be until the day I die. I get mad, hurt, and everything else, including jealous and mean. But forgiveness means not only forgiving others for what they do to you...but forgiving yourself for what you do to them as well.

Well...I am leaving for the night, but I hope my words have helped at least some miniscule amount. By the way...I never said you had to forgive immediately, either. It has taken me years in some cases.

Good luck, redrider. Hope to hear from you again soon.

 

[midwestyankee]

Shoshana and Red, I'm glad you started this dialogue here. And I hope you'll continue it as well because it is an important part of understanding love.

Forgiveness, it seems to me, is a gift we have available to give but few of us truly know how to give it. I am quite sure I don't know how.

The depth of the hurt we feel is not a determining factor in this inability to forgive. I think it is something else that keeps us from being able to forgive. Sure, it may be less difficult to forgive a smaller hurt, but I think for some people any forgiveness at all is a near impossibility.

Any thoughts?