What is incest?

[gunhilltrain]

We wrote a sort of role reversal story once based on a story we know about but we gave it a happy ending. Male MC was a responsible young man. Female MC was an 18-year-old who never a social life in high school because she had two younger siblings and her mom worked long hours and drank when she wasn't at work. At the community college the MCs meet, he is impressed by her maturity. The MCs develop a relationship that "mom" tries to sabotage. It wasn't NC at all, it was a jealous older gal (mom) who saw the younger gal having what she wished for -- someone who truly cared about her --. Mom was drunk and they (mom and fMC) had a big heated argument where mom said she'd die for what the daughter had. fMC broaches subject with mMC who is wary "no I hadn't noticed that your mom doesn't wear underwear --- really?" fMC asks mMC to "seduce" mom -- it took 2.8 seconds -- and he beds her, they "trade" mMCs physical affection from mom being responsible and sober.

It was published here but not as Mature as we submitted it. It went to I/T where it was savaged for having no incest at all (agreed it wasn't an incest story) and not really much taboo -- not that many people notice the "/T."


Another story we submitted as voyeur -- single parents of two college-age kids who have a relationship meet through kids at a university activity and develop a relationship the two pairs spy on and are energized by what they see -- it was also published as I/T -- it was submitted as E/V -- and while nobody suggested that the authors commit suicide as in the first one (seriously) it didn't receive such a great response.

I think what originally bothered you was that of your fifteen stories got pulled from another site - you mentioned that at the beginning of your first post. (I assume that those had been up for a while.) True, it was wasn't really fair that the site did that. It's better when a site rejects a story at the beginning because of some clearly stated rules.

But, they did it anyway. This reminds me of the remarks we had about a month ago about the age of consent. Rather than trying to parse exactly what incest is in different cultures (we digressed all the way to ancient Pharaohs in this thread), just find a site that will accept it. That other site I mentioned will take it. In fact, it seems that Literotica itself, based on what they are doing right now, will accept it too.

 

[Jamie_and_Lisa]

TO MY MIND, IT MATTERS NOT A BIT IF THE PAIR ARE SO HOT FOR EACH OTHER, IT'S STILL ILLEGAL!
But I know little of USA /State law on the subject.
.

But laws vary by local. When we went to England years ago we were APPALLED!! the whole country was full of LAWBREAKERS!!! Virtually the whole country!
They were all DRIVING ON THE LEFT SIDE of the ROAD!!!!

Except for us and this one guy the BOBBIES WERE HARRASSING.

 

[SimonDoom]

[1] "
[2] TO MY MIND, IT MATTERS NOT A BIT IF THE PAIR ARE SO HOT FOR EACH OTHER, IT'S STILL ILLEGAL !

.
.

Why does this matter for purposes of a fiction site? You don't explain that.

Fiction writers can write about whatever they want, under the law, with, possibly, depending on the jurisdiction, a very few exceptions, such as where it's defamatory, obscene, incitement to violence, or infringement of intellectual property rights. A fiction writer can write about murder, embezzlement, fraud, drug trafficking, rape, kidnapping, gang violence, illegal immigration -- and, yes, incest.

Why do you think incest should be treated any differently? There is no general principle that you cannot write about actions that are illegal in fiction.

Think about what would happen to the literary canon of every civilization if such a principle were adopted. You'd have to ban many of Shakespeare's plays, and burn all the Bibles, of course.

 

[lovecraft68]

Ah, yes, the same society that targets 18+ consensual FICTIONAL incest stories is the same society that has people who are defending the movie Cuties, a movie showing real depictions of 11 year old girls not only dancing lewdly but performing other sex based acts.

For those not aware of this wreck...the director/producers had young girls sending them videos of them twerking and dirty dancing....imagine what would happen to you if Law enforcement found videos of young girls dancing like that on YOUR computer.

But Netflix, Hollywood, and other 'groups' are defending it. sexually exploiting children is not artistic expression its pure pedo fuel and anyone supporting it? Well, I hope they don't have young children of their own or have easy access to another person's children

Meanwhile don't write a story about a 21 year old sister with her 19 year old brother in a make believe story, that's wrong.

Let that sink in.

 

[mastermouse]

[...]

Society does not equate sex and reproduction except in high school health class.

Tell that to a man of God and I tell you HOLY SHIT!!
Enough religous people in generell will take a verbal swing at anybody and send them to hell when they talk about sex like it is nowadays ... not to mention incest.

But what happens, if you start talking about the story of Sodom and Gomorrah and the man Lot and his daughters? Guess who they got pregnant from?

Sorry when I drag religion into this discussion, but to me, these are people with some oddly strange, if not borderline, sense of righteousness.

But I admit, the majority of people today have accepted this very fact you stated.

 

[Jamie_and_Lisa]

Tell that to a man of God and I tell you HOLY SHIT!!
Enough religious people, in general, will take a verbal swing at anybody and send them to hell when they talk about sex like it is nowadays ... not to mention incest.

But what happens, if you start talking about the story of Sodom and Gomorrah and the man Lot and his daughters? Guess who they got pregnant from?

Sorry when I drag religion into this discussion, but to me, these are people with some oddly strange, if not borderline, sense of righteousness.

But I admit, the majority of people today have accepted this very fact you stated.

One of our lovers is an ordained Christian Minister. Her father was our childhood pastor, the church that ordained him ordained its first female minister in 1910, its first uncloseted homosexual minister in 1932, Sadly it "officially" merged itself out of existence in 1952. The Brethren had many congregations through central Texas and since the other body was Midwestern, not much changed until a second merger in '68. (Eva had run the youth program as a teenager but since she lacked a penis she was unqualified to go to the Methodist Seminary -- she just went to a different one, her flock followed her.)

The Brethren taught that sex was the gift of a loving God. That partners in committed relationships (not a binary or gender-specific phrase) acted as a conduit for God -- a concept from St. Paul in 1 Phillipians -- that we should drink often from our own well and enjoy sex frequently, daily if possible to ward off stray thoughts -- a concept from the Song of Solomon -- that we should give the "gift" of sex to our lovers whenever they want it not when we feel like giving it. -- from Psalms -- Great advice, BTW much more effective than psychotherapy.

Sadly, it seems that many scoundrels today take Mark Twain's advice and cloak themselves in the flag and cross. They thump on a book, apparently unaware of what is inside of it. We suppose they are too busy telling others what to do to actually read it. As we said before, Adam and Eve, Seth and Azura, Cain and Awan, 18 generations of sibling procration the lines rejoining at Noah's 3 sons. Then Lot, Palith, Hodesh, Abe, Sarah, Laban, Rebecca, Isaac, Jacob, Leah, Rachel, Bilhah and Zilpah... Incest is immoral?

 

[BuckyDuckman]

Incest is an easy "taboo" relationship on which to hang a plot.

 

[sirhugs]

Incest is an easy "taboo" relationship on which to hang a plot.

and readers love a well-hung plot!

Good to see you Bucky.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Incest is an easy "taboo" relationship on which to hang a plot.

For the win.

 

[SimonDoom]

Incest is an easy "taboo" relationship on which to hang a plot.

Precisely. For purposes of Literotica, it's the only thing that matters. Parsing the meaning of incest and talking about the science and law behind it is just wading into the weeds. It doesn't matter at all.

 

[Bramblethorn]

All reproduction is somewhat consanguine. Reproduction does nothing but transmit genetic material already there. If there is genetic variation it may be passed on if both parents have the same variation. There is no greater likelihood that a brother and sister or two first-cousins will carry the same variation than two unrelated people.

This isn't true, though.

For example: every human has two copies of a gene called CFTR, one copy from each parent. This gene tells the body how to make an important protein.

For purposes of this discussion* there are two different versions ("alleles") of that gene that we can have: a "normal" version ('F') and a defective version ('f'). Most of us have two copies of the normal version ('FF') and both of them happily produce this protein.

Some people have one normal allele and one defective allele ("Ff"). Fortunately, you can get by with just one working allele - your body still makes enough to get by. But if you have two defective alleles ("ff") your body can't make this protein correctly, which leads to a whole heap of health problems collectively known as cystic fibrosis.

The allele frequency of 'f' mutations varies a bit from one population to another, but let's keep the numbers round and call it 1%. In a population where people pair off completely at random (i.e. perfect mixing) that means that 98.01% of people end up with FF, 1.98% of people end up with Ff (carriers), and 0.01%, i.e. one in ten thousand, would get ff leading to cystic fibrosis.

But what if a brother and sister have a kid together?

There's a 1.98% chance that their mother is a carrier.
If she is a carrier, each of them has a 1/2 chance of being carriers themselves, so a 1/4 chance that both are carriers.
If both are carriers, each of them has a 1/2 chance of passing 'f' on to their child, so a 1/4 chance that their child will be ff i.e. will have CF.

Multiplying those probabilities together leads to (1.98% * 1/4 * 1/4) = 0.12375% chance of their child having CF inherited from their mother.

It's equally probably that their father is a carrier, so the total risk is approximately double that - let's round it to 0.25%, i.e. one in 400. So this brother-sister pairing is 25x more likely to produce a child who has CF.

The same kind of calculation applies to other recessive conditions: reproduction between closely-related people increases the chance that the child will have two copies of a harmful allele, leading to genetic illness.

FWIW, I'm not sold on genetic risk as an argument for banning incest. The level of risk falls away pretty closely as you get into less direct relationships, and as you note we don't ban old people/smokers/etc. from having kids even though these are also known risk factors, plus non-reproductive sex is a thing. But it's not accurate to say there is no greater likelihood of a brother-sister couple leading to genetic problems.

(My concerns with incest are much more about the potential for abuse, particularly when generation gaps are involved.)

*I'm simplifying a bit here - there are actually several defective versions around, but for purposes of this discussion the distinction between them isn't important.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Ah, yes, the same society that targets 18+ consensual FICTIONAL incest stories is the same society that has people who are defending the movie Cuties, a movie showing real depictions of 11 year old girls not only dancing lewdly but performing other sex based acts.

For those not aware of this wreck...the director/producers had young girls sending them videos of them twerking and dirty dancing....imagine what would happen to you if Law enforcement found videos of young girls dancing like that on YOUR computer.

The whole point of "Cuties" is to criticise the way that society sexualises girls way too young. The title is sarcastic and it's no more pro-pedo than "Full Metal Jacket" is pro-war. It ends with the main character rejecting her sexualised outfit, putting on jeans and a T-shirt, and going out to jump rope with other girls.

But Netflix fucked up, making the promo material more sexualised than the original French marketing, and of course the Religious Right/Qanon nutjobs jumped on the opportunity to whip up a pedophilia scare.

https://www.rollingstone.com/movies...-maimouna-doucoure-controversy-op-ed-1061055/

 

[RetroFan]

Incest is an easy "taboo" relationship on which to hang a plot.

I agree there, which is why I enjoy writing Incest Taboo stories. I've also written stories in other categories where there is a 'forbidden' aspect, such as a young Italian-American guy developing a crush on and eventually having sex with a forward and flirty Italian-American girl, all the while being terrified of the girl's father who is a much feared New York mafia boss and the father's mobster friends.

But with the issue of plot as I've noted on other posts, on Incest Taboo quite a lot of readers are very impatient and want sex straight away. Things like voyeurism, flirting, erotic dreams and fantasies just don't seem to count as sex to them. Maybe even manual or oral sex too, it has to be penetration and it has to happen fast.

For example, my recent aunt-nephew story was 8 pages long which angered a number of readers, even though the lead in featured sexual things between the aunt and nephew such as the aunt wearing a short skirt allowing the nephew to see her panties when she goes upstairs or the aunt having erotic fantasies about the nephew peeping at her when she is showering or on the toilet.

A few days ago I posted a stepfather/stepdaughter story which runs 9 pages, and a reader complained it was boring until the actual sex even though there were scenes of the stepfather perving on his stepdaughter and fantasizing over the girl, such as taking her panties from the clothes hamper and sniffing them and up-skirting her.

 

[ElectricBlue]

For example, my recent aunt-nephew story was 8 pages long which angered a number of readers, even though the lead in featured sexual things between the aunt and nephew such as the aunt wearing a short skirt allowing the nephew to see her panties when she goes upstairs or the aunt having erotic fantasies about the nephew peeping at her when she is showering or on the toilet.

A few days ago I posted a stepfather/stepdaughter story which runs 9 pages, and a reader complained it was boring until the actual sex even though there were scenes of the stepfather perving on his stepdaughter and fantasizing over the girl, such as taking her panties from the clothes hamper and sniffing them and up-skirting her.

Why do some readers think their "requirements" for a story have any relevance to a writer?

I must write in categories where such "reader's rights", hahaha, are not an issue. Or I cater to a different class of reader, because I don't get such comments. And if I did, Delete is a single key stroke.

 

[Jamie_and_Lisa]

For reasons that are probably obvious, we have discussed this topic with medical doctors whose area of specialty is genetics ... (Hey, we want accurate fiction!)

This isn't true, though.

For example: every human has two copies of a gene called CFTR, one copy from each parent. This gene tells the body how to make an important protein.

For purposes of this discussion* there are two different versions ("alleles") of that gene that we can have: a "normal" version ('F') and a defective version ('f'). Most of us have two copies of the normal version ('FF') and both of them happily produce this protein.

Actually, most meetings of a sperm and egg don't create a viable pregnancy. Most "imperfect" combinations are rejected spontaneously before a delivery a fact ruthlessly suppressed by those who say for political reasons that "life begins at conception."

Some people have one normal allele and one defective allele ("Ff"). Fortunately, you can get by with just one working allele - your body still makes enough to get by. But if you have two defective alleles ("ff") your body can't make this protein correctly, which leads to a whole heap of health problems collectively known as cystic fibrosis.

Presumably, because the vast majority of people display no signs of an "affliction," they have at least one "normal" allele -- "F" in your example -- but nobody knows how many people have two. Normal alleles are almost always dominant if your parents were healthy you probably will be -- unless they were exposed to a mutagen before you were conceived. There are thousands of known and suspected mutagens -- many are only "suspected" because political pressure is exerted as was done for decades by "Big Tobacco." Related and unrelated people who share an environmental -- ie living in Flint Michigan USA -- or lifestyle -- IE smoking -- risk factor have the same chance for mutation.

The allele frequency of 'f' mutations varies a bit from one population to another, but let's keep the numbers round and call it 1%. In a population where people pair off completely at random (i.e. perfect mixing) that means that 98.01% of people end up with FF, 1.98% of people end up with Ff (carriers), and 0.01%, i.e. one in ten thousand, would get ff leading to cystic fibrosis.

But saying 1% is a gross oversimplification. In the US and Canada, there is a "background' rate of about 3% for "serious" birth defects. It is a comparison to an idealized reality that doesn't exist. But within communities, there are no "unrelated" people. In the US it is estimated that of the 0.001% of DNA all humans don't share a community shares 15 to 65 % -- based on how expansive the community is --.

While metropolitan areas have a lower percentage, they also have far more genetic mutagens. It isn't noticed as much because it is a sickly tree in a forest, rather than a sickly tree on a savannah. One of the healthiest groups in Canada is also one of the most highly inbred, the post-Dorset people of the extreme north. they live in a relatively pristine environment, and because consanguinity cannot create variation little gets transmitted.

But what if a brother and sister have a kid together?

There's a 1.98% chance that their mother is a carrier.
If she is a carrier, each of them has a 1/2 chance of being carriers themselves, so a 1/4 chance that both are carriers.
If both are carriers, each of them has a 1/2 chance of passing 'f' on to their child, so a 1/4 chance that their child will be ff i.e. will have CF.

Multiplying those probabilities together leads to (1.98% * 1/4 * 1/4) = 0.12375% chance of their child having CF inherited from their mother.

Multiplying assumes two disprovables: (1) that consanguinity is a set percentage, it's not, its a range, that is why tests on individuals can't prove definitive relationships. A fact ruthlessly repressed by law enforcement to obtain convictions on probabilities. So the range for half-siblings (0.0004 - 0.0023) overlaps that of first-cousins (0.0017 - 0.0034) which overlaps siblings (0.0038 - 0.0061). Second-cousin is (0.0002-0.0006).

It's equally probable that their father is a carrier, so the total risk is approximately double that - let's round it to 0.25%, i.e. one in 400. So this brother-sister pairing is 25x more likely to produce a child who has CF.

Essentially our doctor said that statistically while we might have a 25x higher chance of being fatally mauled by a lion while standing on an airport runway in Nairobi Kenya than standing on a runway in Frankfurt Germany statistically it didn't matter because we were far more likely to be arrested or killed by an Airbus 300.

The same kind of calculation applies to other recessive conditions: reproduction between closely-related people increases the chance that the child will have two copies of a harmful allele, leading to genetic illness.

FWIW, I'm not sold on genetic risk as an argument for banning incest. The level of risk falls away pretty close as you get into less direct relationships, and as you note we don't ban old people/smokers/etc. from having kids even though these are also known risk factors, plus non-reproductive sex is a thing. But it's not accurate to say there is no greater likelihood of a brother-sister couple leading to genetic problems.

Except we each have thousands of alleles and only identical twins whom (unless you take the story of Adam and Eve literally) cannot reproduce have the same set. Full brothers and sisters have from 0.0039 - 0.0062 discrete DNA against a 0.0031 - 0.0065 "background" which is not a statistically significant difference.

(My concerns with incest are much more about the potential for abuse, particularly when generation gaps are involved.)

While we agree with the desire to avoid harmful situations regulating tendencies is easy it allows the disgruntled and ill-informed to ban what they don't like rather than what they purport to be banning. The US state of Texas made marriage between adult first-cousins a felony in 1985. According to the legislation's sponsor, the goal was to have a tool to fight polygyny. Why? Or rather how -- we know why.

Well, although legal civil marriages were grandfathered under the law, those "illegal" religious weddings were not. Using the law women and female children could be rounded up and tested. Males of all ages were incarcerated. Although the tests were successfully challenged in court everyone was detained, private property was destroyed and stolen by the state. Headlines were printed alleging crimes, then retracted two years later on page 34.

All relationships everywhere carry the chance of abuse. In Ohio, US for example state law does not ban adult relationships based on affinity but on social relationships -- which leads to ridiculous civil -- read "political" -- prosecutions as well, IE the husband charged with "raping" his wife while she was in a hospital because he had "power of attorney."

*I'm simplifying a bit here - there are actually several defective versions around, but for purposes of this discussion, the distinction between them isn't important.

 

[Jamie_and_Lisa]

First we want to thank everybody who has responded to our thread, there is crmb cake and coffee on the table, help yourself.

Looking at our 30 or so stories "purged" elsewhere -- and another 10 taken down when we closed our account -- and the responses from this question and another open-ended question we asked at LitE were enlightening. We realized how badly the themes of our stories fit in. Someone told Lisa that she wrote, "romances where the MCs just happened to be brother and sister." She responded that it wasn't "coincidence," it was exploring the theme that you can have your cake and eat it too.

We are mothers and grandmothers, and we didn't get our kids and grandkids to eat their vegetables by putting them on a plate and making them stay at the table until they were all eaten. We tried to tailor what we wanted -- for people to read our ideas -- to their tastes. We have two "second chapters" that are "hung-up" in the process here right now -- and over two years we have had eight total "rejected second or later chapters" to stories where a first chapter was posted here.

The trick seems to be crafting something that is popular to read -- there is little point in writing if nobody reads what one has written -- but fits within vague guidelines as to what is acceptable. Straight out rape = ok. Stores where people have consensual sex and say mean things to each other = not ok. Politicians having deformed incest babies = fine. Your neighbor's son -- the guitar hero -- having a brother and sister for patents = not fine. ok. Jilted lovers who blow up trailer parks = ok. Little sis' knocking off brother's philandering wife = not ok. Making fun of Bible-thumping hypocrites = great. Pointing out eroticism in the bible = not great.

I agree there, which is why I enjoy writing Incest Taboo stories. I've also written stories in other categories where there is a 'forbidden' aspect, such as a young Italian-American guy developing a crush on and eventually having sex with a forward and flirty Italian-American girl, all the while being terrified of the girl's father who is a much-feared New York mafia boss and the father's mobster friends.

We can't seem to find that groove. Our stories have sex in them because sex is a -- most enjoyable -- part of life so they can't go some places. But, they aren't "mostly sex" so they don't go others. Everything has a backstory, we've tried putting it in a separate non-sex story referenced in the main story, that didn't work. We have had stories devoid of sexual content rejected as "underage." We've tried breaking up the backstory and putting it in the main story -- that just gets the whole story rejected.

But with the issue of plot as I've noted on other posts, on Incest Taboo quite a lot of readers are very impatient and want sex straight away. Things like voyeurism, flirting, erotic dreams and fantasies just don't seem to count as sex to them. Maybe even manual or oral sex too, it has to be penetration and it has to happen fast.

This is a great paragraph. It is 100% our experience here. Readers seem to want the "Miss America" pagent as it is -- a celebration of warped repressed sexual desire -- without alteration -- while proclaiming to appreciate Miss Cuntetticunt, not for her dental floss bikini, but for her ability to organize coupons. While simultaneously denouncing the readers of Playboy as perverts.

For example, my recent aunt-nephew story was 8 pages long which angered a number of readers, even though the lead in featured sexual things between the aunt and nephew such as the aunt wearing a short skirt allowing the nephew to see her panties when she goes upstairs or the aunt having erotic fantasies about the nephew peeping at her when she is showering or on the toilet.

That really should have gone over well. Our society seems to have a collective mental age regarding sex that is only two/thirds of the requirement to log in at this site.

A few days ago I posted a stepfather/stepdaughter story which runs 9 pages, and a reader complained it was boring until the actual sex even though there were scenes of the stepfather perving on his stepdaughter and fantasizing over the girl, such as taking her panties from the clothes hamper and sniffing them and up-skirting her.

Oh, well ... And thanks for the brain food. There's plenty of cake. Take some home with you.

 

[8letters]

But with the issue of plot as I've noted on other posts, on Incest Taboo quite a lot of readers are very impatient and want sex straight away. Things like voyeurism, flirting, erotic dreams and fantasies just don't seem to count as sex to them. Maybe even manual or oral sex too, it has to be penetration and it has to happen fast.

I've read lots and lots of I/T and I've written quite a few I/T stories that have done well. My thoughts on what you wrote:
* want sex right away - I've not seen that. My stories generally have several pages of build up
* voyeurism - needs to be handled well to work. Can easily fall flat. The guy spying on the woman can easily come across as creepy. And I don't like stories where the woman turns out to like being spied on. I'd think she'd be angry as hell. One character allowing the other to see them naked has the same problem as flirting
* flirting - flirting to me is something that doesn't fit naturally into I/T stories. What gives I/T stories their punch to me is that the relationship is forbidden so the characters fight their budding feelings for each other. Flirting implies the characters are quite open to having a relationship
* erotic dreams - suck. I hate them in I/T stories
* fantasies - ditto. The couple having sex is the fantasy. A fantasy of a fantasy is boring
* it has to be penetration and it has to happen fast - Not my experience. In my My Crocheting Little Sister, it's page 6 before they have coitus. I think a lot of readers (including me) love a steady increase in the action.

For example, my recent aunt-nephew story was 8 pages long which angered a number of readers

My four highest-rated stories are 10 pages, 6 pages, 8 pages and 7 pages.

 

[KeithD]

Why do some readers think their "requirements" for a story have any relevance to a writer?

That goes for posters to the discussion board as well. Of course, often enough they do have relevance to the insecure writer.

 

[SimonDoom]

I've read lots and lots of I/T and I've written quite a few I/T stories that have done well. My thoughts on what you wrote:
* want sex right away - I've not seen that. My stories generally have several pages of build up
* voyeurism - needs to be handled well to work. Can easily fall flat. The guy spying on the woman can easily come across as creepy. And I don't like stories where the woman turns out to like being spied on. I'd think she'd be angry as hell. One character allowing the other to see them naked has the same problem as flirting
* flirting - flirting to me is something that doesn't fit naturally into I/T stories. What gives I/T stories their punch to me is that the relationship is forbidden so the characters fight their budding feelings for each other. Flirting implies the characters are quite open to having a relationship
* erotic dreams - suck. I hate them in I/T stories
* fantasies - ditto. The couple having sex is the fantasy. A fantasy of a fantasy is boring
* it has to be penetration and it has to happen fast - Not my experience. In my My Crocheting Little Sister, it's page 6 before they have coitus. I think a lot of readers (including me) love a steady increase in the action.


My four highest-rated stories are 10 pages, 6 pages, 8 pages and 7 pages.

I think all of this is astute and dead-on about Literotica stories, although I don't quite agree about voyeurism.

In addition to writing incest stories I write voyeur/exhibitionism stories, and my incest stories often incorporate elements of voyeurism and exhibitionism. Those stories have done quite well, although 8Letters is correct that some readers have pointedly written to me that they don't find those elements of the incest stories appealing. I include them anyway, because they appeal to me, and on balance they have not hurt the stories at all, despite objections here and there.

There are a lot of situations where voyeurism could come into play in an incest story. The most obvious would be a brother spying on his hot sister. The best way to make that "play" in an incest story is to describe the brother as feeling guilty about doing what he's doing, but he's so attracted to her he can't help it. Inner conflict is a big deal in incest.

My attitude is that you should write whatever you want and not feel bound by what readers want, but IF you are interested in tapping into what readers of incest stories are "really" looking for, then you should pay attention to what authors like 8Letters and Lovecraft, who write a lot of these stories and who've also talked about the subject at some length, have to say, and you should read incest stories that have done well. There are elements that are common to the most successful incest stories. Noodling over what the law says and what history and science say is a waste of time.

Contrary to the belief by many that the most successful incest stories are just simple stroke stories, the reality is that the incest stories at Literotica that do best, in terms of both high scores AND lots of views, often incorporate the following elements:

1. Emphasis on the taboo, and its effect on both the participants in the incest. The element of fighting reluctance is a key element to the eroticism.

2. Romance. The participants in the incest really care about each other, and their mutual love eventually overcomes the reluctance and taboo. This is a big factor in a lot of the most successful incest stories.

3. Buildup. Many readers appreciate the author's effort to make the incestuous union plausible. That can take a while. I wrote an 8-chapter mom-son story that was published over 9 months where they don't actually have sex until the last chapter. That last chapter did very well. So, yes, there are plenty of readers for the slow-build type of incest story.

 

[lovecraft68]

Why do some readers think their "requirements" for a story have any relevance to a writer?

Probably because as evidence by a lot of threads here, and the writers who respond in their comment sections, there are a lot of writers who want to know exactly what the readers want so they can appeal to them.

The readers figure most writers most be like that, and the writers who just toss the story they wanted to write out there and it is what it is, are the ones who have it wrong.

 

[lovecraft68]

Eightletters and Simon

The two of you can out formula the fun out of a wet dream. All this analysis all these steps and this works and this and make sure you do this and this is what they want and...

While there are sweet spots in every category that have mass appeal, going out of your way to force them into a story and be sure you're doing the ABC's of what at this point is a contrived formulaic piece sucks the fun and creativity out of a story.

I know I wrote a how to a few years back that a lot of people claim helped them get a feel for the category, but that's all a how to is meant to be, some tips and basic do/don't but its not supposed to be a list that every box has to e checked off and nothing can deviate from the pattern.

I've written stories that went against just about everything I said works and those stories did as well as any of my other stories give or take.

If you want to do assembly line stories that's your business, but it really limits you and bogs down the muse.

I'm not posting this to troll, but just tossing it out there for anyone here who is new to I/T or writing in general because again there are how to's for every category, and they're useful as a guide, but they're not the Bible on said category.

Write what you want and learn as you go. you'll hit sometimes, you'll miss sometimes, but you'll always learn from it and get better.

Or you can do the same thing every time. Yay.

 

[SimonDoom]

Eightletters and Simon

The two of you can out formula the fun out of a wet dream. All this analysis all these steps and this works and this and make sure you do this and this is what they want and...

While there are sweet spots in every category that have mass appeal, going out of your way to force them into a story and be sure you're doing the ABC's of what at this point is a contrived formulaic piece sucks the fun and creativity out of a story.

I know I wrote a how to a few years back that a lot of people claim helped them get a feel for the category, but that's all a how to is meant to be, some tips and basic do/don't but its not supposed to be a list that every box has to e checked off and nothing can deviate from the pattern.

I've written stories that went against just about everything I said works and those stories did as well as any of my other stories give or take.

If you want to do assembly line stories that's your business, but it really limits you and bogs down the muse.

I'm not posting this to troll, but just tossing it out there for anyone here who is new to I/T or writing in general because again there are how to's for every category, and they're useful as a guide, but they're not the Bible on said category.

Write what you want and learn as you go. you'll hit sometimes, you'll miss sometimes, but you'll always learn from it and get better.

Or you can do the same thing every time. Yay.

Lovecraft, I think what you do is great. I think you have a natural story-telling ability, and I take you at your word that you just do what you want, that you don't pay attention to formulas, and that it works for you. I believe you when you say all this talk of formulas seems artificial and restrictive. For you, it is.

But not everybody is you. It just so happens that your natural way of wanting to do things is a way that a lot of people want to read. Maybe you were just free-wheeling it when you wrote Tales of My Slutty Sister. It just so happens that your way of doing things fits with what people want to read. Your story is very popular. It just so happens that your story embodies a lot of the things that I've noticed work in stories in general. You may not be conscious of it, but you're doing it nonetheless.

Some people need to take a more conscious approach. Their muse works differently from yours. And that's OK!

I personally don't believe there's a conflict, or that this approach is in any way limiting. Numbers and data and formulas may kill your muse, but they get mine jazzed up. I've written stories across multiple categories, about incest and exhibitionism and BDSM and tentacle porn and aliens that look like penises and blow-job loving Christmas elves, horny bullfighters, magical bikinis, and whatnot. My approach doesn't limit me at all.

When I post something, I'm not saying "you must do this." I'm just saying, "Since you seem to be curious about ways of doing things, here's how I do it. Do with that what you will."

 

[8letters]

Eightletters and Simon

The two of you can out formula the fun out of a wet dream. All this analysis all these steps and this works and this and make sure you do this and this is what they want and...

While there are sweet spots in every category that have mass appeal, going out of your way to force them into a story and be sure you're doing the ABC's of what at this point is a contrived formulaic piece sucks the fun and creativity out of a story.

I know I wrote a how to a few years back that a lot of people claim helped them get a feel for the category, but that's all a how to is meant to be, some tips and basic do/don't but its not supposed to be a list that every box has to e checked off and nothing can deviate from the pattern.

I've written stories that went against just about everything I said works and those stories did as well as any of my other stories give or take.

If you want to do assembly line stories that's your business, but it really limits you and bogs down the muse.

I'm not posting this to troll, but just tossing it out there for anyone here who is new to I/T or writing in general because again there are how to's for every category, and they're useful as a guide, but they're not the Bible on said category.

Write what you want and learn as you go. you'll hit sometimes, you'll miss sometimes, but you'll always learn from it and get better.

Or you can do the same thing every time. Yay.

SimonDoom is the nicest person I have interacted with on any forum. He is almost unfailing polite. He provides great answers to those posters seeking help. He disagreed with me upstream, but he did so in such a tactful manner that I wanted to buy two beers and pull up a small table in bar somewhere to dig into when E&V would and wouldn't work in an incest story. That would you call him out and insult him says loads about you.

 

[Bramblethorn]

For reasons that are probably obvious, we have discussed this topic with medical doctors whose area of specialty is genetics ... (Hey, we want accurate fiction!)

I also have some interest in the topic, sparked by my experience in carrying the coffins of close family members who were killed by genetic disease and then spending a couple of decades waiting to find out whether I had the same mutation that killed them.

It's not an experience I would recommend, but it was quite motivational. While my PhD wasn't in genetics, I've given it a bit of attention, including completing a university course on the subject with high distinction, so please do assume that I'm familiar with the basics here.

Presumably, because the vast majority of people display no signs of an "affliction," they have at least one "normal" allele -- "F" in your example -- but nobody knows how many people have two.

Not true - DNA sequencing makes it possible to estimate the frequency of carriers and non-carriers in the population, and there's been plenty of work done in this area.

But saying 1% is a gross oversimplification. In the US and Canada, there is a "background' rate of about 3% for "serious" birth defects.

It would indeed be an oversimplification if I'd represented it as the overall rate of birth defects, but that wasn't what happened.

I picked one specific mutation, with numbers simplified to keep the working easy to follow, as a way to explain how reproduction between close relatives increases the risk that their children will manifest recessive genetic diseases. It was never intended to give an exact number for the total risk, only to illustrate the mechanism by which brother-sister incest increases the risk.

Beyond that, a lot of your answer simply isn't relevant to what I'm talking about.

Yes, there's a very high percentage of DNA that's common to virtually all humans (depending on whether you count silent mutations as equivalent), partly for reasons of genetic drift and partly because some genes have no margin for error - if you don't have what it takes to form a working heart, you're not going to pass your genes on.

That shared DNA isn't relevant to this discussion. In the case of incest, the main genetic issue is harmful recessive conditions linked to alleles which exist in the population but are not universal - conditions like CF being an example. The non-common portion of DNA might be a small percentage of the total but it's still quite a large number of genes with lots of potential for harmful recessives which are governed by the same kind of mathematics as CF.

Multiplying assumes two disprovables: (1) that consanguinity is a set percentage, it's not, its a range, that is why tests on individuals can't prove definitive relationships. A fact ruthlessly repressed by law enforcement to obtain convictions on probabilities. So the range for half-siblings (0.0004 - 0.0023) overlaps that of first-cousins (0.0017 - 0.0034) which overlaps siblings (0.0038 - 0.0061). Second-cousin is (0.0002-0.0006).

I don't know whether those numbers are correct - I'd need to see a source that clarifies what concepts you're discussing and how you're measuring them - but in any case, it's irrelevant to the example I gave, which does not assume that "consanguinity is a set percentage".

You seem to be discussing something like CODIS-style DNA testing, based on comparing genetic markers at standard locations, which then gives an estimate of overall similarity between two genetic samples. (Not an exact measurement because it only looks at a small number of locations, not the whole genome.)

I gave an example of how things work at the level of a single gene, which isn't the same thing.

(BTW, you mentioned "two disprovables" but one seems to be missing here.)

All relationships everywhere carry the chance of abuse.

But the chance of abuse varies depending on the characteristics of those relationships. When there is a large age and power imbalance - e.g. between a 40-year-old father and the 18-year-old daughter who may still be financially or otherwise dependent on him - this obviously increases the risk of abuse.