The psychopathic sub

[KoPilot]

Cats and humanoid cats are completely different. Is it even D/s? (Disclosure - wife is kitty.)

Fuck if I even know. I insert myself into these conversations pertaining "exclusively" to "D/s" because if I didn't I'd barely have a postcount. I also figure that most people don't even know what they're talking about when they say "D/s" even though OP seems to have a very strict definition.

[derail]
Personally I feel my dynamic is almost a vague sort of slavery in that I can't really conceive of myself not having him as a "home base". He's where the food is, where the treats are, where the pets and scritches are. I'm dependent in that way, for better and for worse. Without him (or another like him, should that happen) I don't fare so well, and I may not even survive. I hurt myself, I depersonalize, I have a hard time holding down a full-time job. So for me, the sense of ownership, while not anything like a slave situation, with me being obedient and doing whatever he wants me to do, is palpable. Hard to explain how that's possible when we have zero protocol or anything like that, or even when I fight him tooth and nail on some things. I'm subhuman in a charming and fantastic way that makes me feel like I can do anything, I've got it fucking made.
[/derail]

tl;dr, tho: p sure the answer there is "it depends".

 

[KoPilot]

I think that generalizations of attraction tend to annoy those of us in sexual proclivity minorities because we are so frequently bombarded with theories as to the cause of our particular abnormality or abnormalities. Depending on my generation in my country, in theory I could be gay because I am possessed, any man tall enough to have me won't want me, I choose a career and have no time for a husband, I'm a Communist, I need religious help, I hate men, I'm on all these drugs, I was abused by a male, I have no moral boundaries, I just haven't been fucked by a real man, I want to be a rebel, I'm in a curious phase, or I want attention.

I could be ace because I'm secretly gay, that I haven't had good sex yet, that I haven't been with a real man yet, that I'm a feminazi out to make my partner's life miserable, that I've been abused, that I'm mentally ill, that I'm physically ill, that I think I'm better than everyone else, that I'm really just bad in bed, that something's wrong with my body or genitals, etc.

The closest animal relative that I can look to for moral support would be... single-celled prokaryotes. Neat.

 

[YourCaptor]

Neither, necessarily?

If I am in a relationship primarily where I am Mistress he is slave, then yes, my personal energies are not going to go into his mental health drama.

If she is my life partner or a life partner, I am open to much more mutuality and willing to do much more drama.

Actually have done, with provisional service-arrangement things, now that I think about it - it's very clear s/he is there to serve, focus on service, and I am not there to pat heads, babysit, or worry about their feeewings. That to me, is D/s. Not the constant concern about how my power might bite me, him, or society in the ass, but the right to relish and enjoy the pleasure of that power. Yes "with great responsibility" but I feel like we've gotten so into the responsibility piece we don't even give a shit about anything else. The entire dialogue about Mastery sounds like mandating a responsibility fetish (and poor personal boundaries - the responsibility for the other that never ends is a demented Stella Dallas mothering parody, not Mastery.)

D/s for me? It's more service less caretaking. The entire point of service has been so lost in the shuffle of all this essay writing and navel gazing. There is so much focus on the flow of things from top down and absolutely none on the flow of focus from bottom up.

I figured since we're doing one true way and pronouncements about what actually characterizes D/s versus vanilla, I'd try pointing out how I view it.

The disconnect for me is that you assume psychopaths are a source of increased drama.

In my experience, highly empathetic people produce much more drama than the psychopath I know.

 

[IrisAlthea]

The disconnect for me is that you assume psychopaths are a source of increased drama.

In my experience, highly empathetic people produce much more drama than the psychopath I know.

There is no real consensus on what defines a psychpath and the people I've met that have been described as psychopaths have been very different in behaviour.

Something that is often mentioned weather its called psychopathy or antisocial personality disorder, is manipulation and pathological lying. Those are things that can make a close emotional relationship hell dramawise, but you can probably deal with them without ever noticing as long as you don't get involved on a level where you need to depend on them.

I think there is a tendency for drama around psychopaths but it might not really involve them even if they started it.

If you have ideas about being responsible for, nurturing and caring for or even being in some kind of informal therapeutic relationship with them, I think you're in for a tough ride.
That wasn't what you described in your previous post though, I think?

 

[FurryFury]

Wait. You haz a wife? A kitty wife? This is new to me. Can tell me more? See I haz kitty in me too.

For so long I have fantasied about being your female companion. Alas the position is filled. (Not that this will be my fantasies!)

*le sigh*

Cats and humanoid cats are completely different. Is it even D/s? (Disclosure - wife is kitty.)

Just what I was thinking!

Enjoying the thread though.

I can't help it... <smiles> always makes me think of whatshisname.

I would like to thank dora_salonica for bringing out rosco rathbone, Netzach, KoPilot, IrisAlthea, Stella_Omega, Stag of Oberon, and many others I've seen little of in too long.

I find it interesting that the sub is mentioned as the psychopath. I think the crazy isn't just limited to subs and certainly not to kink. I find the following quote utterly inaccurate.

Should care be mutual? Maybe, maybe not, but the fact is that psychopathic partners nilla and otherwise worm themselves into all kinds of relationships that in fact, are not mutually caring.

Someone mentioned a person that was very empathic, those are usually the psychopaths IMO, they say they are overly empathic when in fact they have no empathy and are using that sensitivity to manipulate.

Psychopathy is either greater now or more talked about. I'm not sure which but from the people my kids are dating I'm seeing a really high percentage of that and other mental issues.

In the vanilla world this does not happen. The relationship does not involve care and responsibility by one member of the relationship. Care is mutual....

All_4_Love, your mention of lack of acknowledgement just about broke my heart. I used to spend more time here acknowledging people because I remembered that feeling all too well. Then one day, probably during summer I just got fed up with the stupid and quit. That's when we typically have an influx of high school or college kids that know far less than they think. I wish I had be around to give you that though.

And Bramblethorn you seem like another great addition to this board. I've enjoyed your posts too.

It took me a long time to feel someone here noticed or knew me in a positive way. One of the group leaders here at that time, disliked me a great deal, but I eventually broke through that too and we became friends.

The board feels slower to me here now, possibly because I've been around so long and much seems repetitive. Possibly because I've said what I need to say generally about nearly everything. And then something like this pops up and makes me want to post appreciation for my online kink home.

I'm glad I didn't have to go to work so early today and could enjoy all of you. It makes me wish we had a spotlight issue or post frequently that would bring out so many great minds and posts.

 

[Netzach]

The disconnect for me is that you assume psychopaths are a source of increased drama.

In my experience, highly empathetic people produce much more drama than the psychopath I know.

Oh, well, swing too far in that direction, and yeah, I'm 100 percent there with you. I'm skating on the edge of NT when it comes to empathy, so mostly they just annoy me.

 

[KoPilot]

I think there is a tendency for drama around psychopaths but it might not really involve them even if they started it.

If you have ideas about being responsible for, nurturing and caring for or even being in some kind of informal therapeutic relationship with them, I think you're in for a tough ride.

P sure lack of empathy is one of the defining characteristics of "psychopathy"?

I've heard some optimistic stories about people who have no/little sense of empathy getting along in the world and trying not to do damage through some hardcore vigilance on their part and very clear, sometimes clinical, communication with the people they get close to about how their brain works.

Of course, throw even the tiniest bit of narcissism in there and all of that goes out the window.

The board feels slower to me here now, possibly because I've been around so long and much seems repetitive. Possibly because I've said what I need to say generally about nearly everything. And then something like this pops up and makes me want to post appreciation for my online kink home.

This happens to every forum I wind up joining. So sad when that threshold gets crossed; something ends up feeling like it's missing. Lit is the only, and I mean only, place this hasn't happened to me so far yet. I'm not sure why..!

Anyways, you should come around more often for sure.

 

[IrisAlthea]

P sure lack of empathy is one of the defining characteristics of "psychopathy"?

I've heard some optimistic stories about people who have no/little sense of empathy getting along in the world and trying not to do damage through some hardcore vigilance on their part and very clear, sometimes clinical, communication with the people they get close to about how their brain works.

Of course, throw even the tiniest bit of narcissism in there and all of that goes out the window.

Yes, some kind of disregard for the feelings of others too.

 

[Bramblethorn]

P sure lack of empathy is one of the defining characteristics of "psychopathy"?

I've heard some optimistic stories about people who have no/little sense of empathy getting along in the world and trying not to do damage through some hardcore vigilance on their part and very clear, sometimes clinical, communication with the people they get close to about how their brain works.

Yeah, the problem is that we use "empathy" to mean both cognitive empathy and affective empathy: ability to perceive/understand other people's emotions vs feeling those emotions. And I think "wanting to make other people happy" is another thing again, also sometimes lumped under "empathy".

It depends a bit on which researcher you look at, but some psychopaths seem to have plenty of cognitive empathy (which allows them to be charming and manipulative - think Ted Bundy) without affective empathy, while others have little or none of either.

Some of our understanding is based on brain-scan analysis, seeing which processing centres light up when you ask them to think about somebody else in pain, etc etc. But brains can be deceptive; even when there's some sort of damage/congenital abnormality that affects the part of the brain that would normally be associated with a given task, they can come up with alternate ways of achieving the same end. There was a recent case of a woman who grew up without a cerebellum - she was very slow in learning to walk and speak, but she got there.

Interesting article here about a professor who studied the brains of psychopaths for years before looking at his own genetics and brain-scan activity and discovering that he fit the pattern, then recognising signs of psychopathy in his own behaviour. He seems to use an intellectual process as a substitute for affective empathy:

I decided to try to treat my wife and other loved ones with more care. Each time I’m about to interact with them, I pause for a moment and asked “what would a good person do here?” and notice that my instinct is to always do the most selfish thing at that moment. My wife started noticing this and after two months said “what has come over you?”

On the other hand, autistic/Asperger's people are weak on cognitive empathy but often do put a high priority on other people's emotions - it's just that we have difficulty figuring out what they are or what we should be doing about them!

 

[dora_salonica]

Fascism/ I'm an untermensch of course. /Fascism.

I am pretty sure that fascism has been thrown out the window ever since Germany lost WWII. I sure hope so, that is...

"The best" is malleable, changing, fickle, and ultimately a meaningless metric in human culture.

Is that the epitome of post-modern or what?

This "real D/s is DIFFERENT than regular human exchange and an exception to ALL common sense because we do it DIFFERENT" thing is as annoyingly unrealistic as Shades of Grey fans, though they'll never accept that fact.

Now you are putting things in my mouth, Netzach. I never said that.

If a dominant sees issues in their submissive that need work (anxiety, for example), the responsible way of dealing with it would be to get the submissive into therapy, have her work with her doctor to see if meds are necessary, etc - NOT attempt to fix it themselves from some misguided belief that D/s is similar enough to a therapist/ client relationship to go mucking about in the submissive's head [sans proper training].

I quite agree of course. If you are to be a little patient, I am certain you will enjoy immensely the article I am translating at the moment...

Ummm... Jung had a fantastically tumultuous affair with one of his patients, that supposedly included elements of BDSM.

I am glad to see someone is aware of that. There is a brilliant little book about Sabina Spielrein and Jung, by Aldo Carotenuto, my favorite Italian psychotherapist, called The Secret Symmetry. Absolutely D/s material, thoroughly enjoyed it...

I live in the world where regardless of D/s, at the end of the day I carry and equal share of the responsibility of what happens. Which means (for example) if I get triggered, injured, etc I am responsible for speaking up. I am responsible for communicating my needs. I am responsible for making my lover's [dominant's] life easier - which sometimes that means carrying their weight, or utilizing skills I may have that they do not, etc.

I agree. But no one said anything different. Naturally, the sub has her share of responsibility. To serve, to follow, to be perceptive, to do her best, to communicate etc etc.

OMG I am so sorry to keep picking on you for your word choices. But I DON'T accept that definition, and yes, I DO understand that analogy-- I just don't agree with it. In fact, I could not say that I don't agree, if I did not understand it.

(I wrote a lovely long, pointless half-a-novel in which the mae sub insisted that he had placed himself in his Mistress's care and keeping. Pretty much that's why it went nowhere because the premise stopped making sense to me as the writer, or his Mistress as a character...)

So it is the whole D/s concept that you don't agree with. Why didn't you say so at the beginning, lol? But that is quite alright, we are all free to pick the type of relationship we want to be in, are we not?

Welcome to a new world! If you hang around here for long you will become familiar with a lot of other situations

It's not so bad actually. I admire feisty people - and I dislike dodos. So, I believe I am among friends here. I am certain of it - though it is not apparent as of yet, lol.

Actually have done, with provisional service-arrangement things, now that I think about it - it's very clear s/he is there to serve, focus on service, and I am not there to pat heads, babysit, or worry about their feeewings. That to me, is D/s. Not the constant concern about how my power might bite me, him, or society in the ass, but the right to relish and enjoy the pleasure of that power. Yes "with great responsibility" but I feel like we've gotten so into the responsibility piece we don't even give a shit about anything else.

In other words, if I understand correctly, you have had enough of the romantic notions of the Master or Mistress is there to take care of the sub or slave... Well, I know what you mean.

But you already acknowledge that "great responsibility"...(which I think is indicative of dominant people, always).

It's more service less caretaking.

Well, for me, though I see your point of view, it is equal service and equal care taking. Am I allowed to have that opinion or is it to hell with the fucking Greek girl and her stupid opinions?

 

[dora_salonica]

Rape is wrong, regardless of whether ducks and dolphins do it.

Of course it is wrong. Now please explain why it is the most common female fantasy, without referring to animalistic stuff at all.

Cane toads are so non-picky they've been observed trying to mate with other toads that have been run over by trucks.

I have some girlfriends who do that late at night, after they have drunk too much...

I'd expect so. But there's a big difference between "someone who'll be worth your while" and "best in the world"/"one-in-a-million True Master".

Why should there be any difference? Don't we strive for quality in everything we do? My God, I strive for quality in the way I train my dog..

And if not, should we not strive for quality? Perhaps that should be taught at school: how to be a quality fetishist (just came up with that one).

Personally I feel my dynamic is almost a vague sort of slavery in that I can't really conceive of myself not having him as a "home base". He's where the food is, where the treats are, where the pets and scritches are. I'm dependent in that way, for better and for worse. Without him (or another like him, should that happen) I don't fare so well, and I may not even survive. I hurt myself, I depersonalize, I have a hard time holding down a full-time job. So for me, the sense of ownership, while not anything like a slave situation, with me being obedient and doing whatever he wants me to do, is palpable. Hard to explain how that's possible when we have zero protocol or anything like that, or even when I fight him tooth and nail on some things. I'm subhuman in a charming and fantastic way that makes me feel like I can do anything, I've got it fucking made.

That is definitely D/s, I think...

Something that is often mentioned weather its called psychopathy or antisocial personality disorder, is manipulation and pathological lying.

These are the things I had in mind, when I opened this thread.

I would like to thank dora_salonica for bringing out rosco rathbone, Netzach, KoPilot, IrisAlthea, Stella_Omega, Stag of Oberon, and many others I've seen little of in too long.

I did not know that all these people were in "hibernation". Hmm.. I am also glad then, very glad. Thank you everybody for coming forward, out of your perhaps very happy and busy lives, to make a little comment on these thoughts of mine (thoughts that might have been right or wrong....)

All_4_Love, your mention of lack of acknowledgement just about broke my heart.

We should all take great care of such matters, I think. You know, when we play with the ego button, with pain and humiliation and power, it is possible that we might trigger great sensitivities. I am just saying... extra care might be needed, and it does not cost anything to say "well done" every now and then.

And Bramblethorn you seem like another great addition to this board. I've enjoyed your posts too.

I enjoyed thoroughly the level-headed logic and clear thinking of Bramblethorn. It reminded me of my College years in America. I was educated in the States and I owe a lot to my American education. My whole life was influenced to a great extent by my unforgettable American teachers - and I am not joking at all, credit should be given where credit is due. You see the situation was very different back in the eighties in Greece, and for me it was really a big deal. And of course I am forever in debt to that great country, with the great tradition of honoring what is different... (though it may be that Bramblethorn is from Australia, lol).

 

[DistinctlySouthern]

A Psychooath is really only a Psychopath

A psychopath is crazy as hell

Me --- I am only a lesbian disguised as man.

 

[Netzach]

Well, for me, though I see your point of view, it is equal service and equal care taking. Am I allowed to have that opinion or is it to hell with the fucking Greek girl and her stupid opinions?

You can have any opinion you want. Apparently I can't and neither can anyone who thinks that a slave/sub should be a functioning independent entity whenever possible in service to another - because you have built dependence into your definition of that role. My lynchpin for D/s is not dependence it is service.

You cannot insist that your opinion is the right way to do D/s any more than I can, looking to internet experts to back up truth that is not applicable to me, never has been, and never will be.

My opinion is that the striving for symmetry and mutuality that the mainstream of D/s insists upon is actually no longer D/s. The idea that we should not abuse one another and we must have informed consent - good idea. I like clear eyed unvarnished agreement to the things I do - I like slaves BEGGING me to do things to them, in fact.

But that idea that we should care not to abuse each other has been blown into something else completely. That the ONLY Dom is a Paternalistic Daddy Dom. Fuck that.

Someone is served. Someone sucks up. Everything else is meant to control our public image.

If the serving half is too mentally or physically unfit to serve in some capacity, you are now in a different dynamic.

Caring and caretaking are two different things. I care what happens to my slave. I care about him or her in a general brotherhood of man sense. But I do not and AM NOT OBLIGATED to "take care of him" simply because he serves. He is a grown ass man and must keep himself moving along.

I care what happens to my car, and I take care to ensure it runs. I don't go out of my way to fuck it up. But I do not put myself out of whack and out of commission if it's showing itself to be consistently unreliable. Then it's no longer a car - it's a wife or a pet, or a friend, it's a passion, an art form, a hobby, or something else. A slave is a human acting as an object for the enhancement of the owner. Period.

This is only a mean thing to say if you insist that M/s and D/s are superior to vanilla and mutualistic modes. I don't see it that way, so I'm happy to say "this relationship is vanilla with some whacking around on the ass, this one is not" in regard to my own relationships.

If the asymmetry of power is the most important feature of a relationship, then fairness and symmetry are not the point.

Due diligence is done if I keep my slave out of the hospital and out of psych ER because of anything I've done. Layering more responsibility onto me, as the Dominant is clouding the issue.

 

[dora_salonica]

You can have any opinion you want.

Thank you.

Due diligence is done if I keep my slave out of the hospital and out of psych ER because of anything I've done. Layering more responsibility onto me, as the Dominant is clouding the issue.

Shouldn't also the dominant ensure that the slave improves himself or herself?

It seems that where property is involved, great care is necessary in order to enhance its value and its prospects.

Property owners continue to enjoy their property and see its value increased, and that is why they take good care of it and they do not neglect it. Instead of waiting for trouble, they always enhance the roof, no?

Am I right, or am I just a romantic old fool who dreams of Masters and subs?

 

[Stella_Omega]

You keep using this prescriptive language. "should, shouldn't."

How about instead, using preferential language; "I want a Dom who..." "I want to help my sub improve..."

Lots of people will agree with your preferences, and those who don't agree will be able to say so without animosity.

 

[IrisAlthea]

Thank you.



Shouldn't also the dominant ensure that the slave improves himself or herself?

It seems that where property is involved, great care is necessary in order to enhance its value and its prospects.

Property owners continue to enjoy their property and see its value increased, and that is why they take good care of it and they do not neglect it. Instead of waiting for trouble, they always enhance the roof, no?

Am I right, or am I just a romantic old fool who dreams of Masters and subs?

Only if that particular couple want it that way.
Why is it so important to construct shoulds for other people's relationships?

 

[Bramblethorn]

[re. rape]

Of course it is wrong. Now please explain why it is the most common female fantasy, without referring to animalistic stuff at all.

I'm wary of requests to explain kink (or poly, sexual orientation, gender identity etc etc) because so often "please explain" really means "please justify": if you can't provide a complete theory on how this tremendously complex aspect of human behaviour works, you're not allowed to do it. Kinda like telling somebody they need to be able to explain how an electronic fuel injection system works before they're allowed to drive to the shops.

So my first response is to assert that people who do these things (while observing principles of informed consent) don't owe anybody an explanation. If I discuss it, it's out of intellectual curiosity, not because I feel any sort of duty to discuss.

With that said, in the spirit of intellectual curiosity... I don't know what the real answer is, and I suspect it may be different from one person to another. All I can do is speculate some possible reasons. They may or may not be correct, there may well be others. Without invoking animalistic stuff:

1. Some people, especially women, are socialised to feel guilty about wanting sex. Rape fantasy offers a way to fantasise about sex without feeling guilt, because in the fantasy they're not choosing to have sex.

2. Some people use fantasy as a way of confronting RL fears and getting them under control. I remember one story here where a character hired actors to recreate her abduction and rape, letting her change the ending by stealing the fake-rapist's gun and shooting him (with blanks).

3. Rape fantasies might be part of a much broader human tendency to seek out things that frighten us: scary movies, roller-coaster rides, etc. I'm sure there are several explanations for that; one is that our endocrine system reacts to stressful situations by pumping out things like adrenaline to assist in fight-or-flight reactions, and endorphins to overcome pain from injury. Scaring oneself can be a way of tricking the body into giving us that fix. It could also be an arousal-by-association trick: use fear to get the body to approximate the physiological symptoms of arousal (heart pounding, skin flushed, etc etc) as a way of tricking oneself into feeling arousal.

There may well be others - I'm just presenting these as possibilities, not as a definitive answer. And it may be that we're not capable of comprehending the full answer; as some wit said, "if the human mind was simple enough to be understood, it'd be so simple that we couldn't understand".

there's a big difference between "someone who'll be worth your while" and "best in the world"/"one-in-a-million True Master".

Why should there be any difference? Don't we strive for quality in everything we do? My God, I strive for quality in the way I train my dog..

Quality yes, perfection no.

I spend a lot of time trying to teach myself not to strive for "best in the world" at everything I do. I tend towards that sort of perfectionist mindset by default and it can be utterly crippling. It means that in my writing here, I can spend months trying to perfect a story (and possibly end up getting discouraged and never finishing it at all) while in the same length of time some other writer has knocked out a dozen pieces that are enjoyable and well worth reading. Worrying too much about the flaws in my work can sap a lot of the pleasure of writing.

(though it may be that Bramblethorn is from Australia, lol).

I'm from both Australia and USA, depending on how you define "from".

 

[KoPilot]

Shouldn't also the dominant ensure that the slave improves himself or herself?

It seems that where property is involved, great care is necessary in order to enhance its value and its prospects.

Property owners continue to enjoy their property and see its value increased, and that is why they take good care of it and they do not neglect it. Instead of waiting for trouble, they always enhance the roof, no?

Am I right, or am I just a romantic old fool who dreams of Masters and subs?

There is no "should", here. Were I to get into a casual relationship with another dominant-type, I would not expect that they try to "improve" me in any kind of objective sense. And were they to try, I'd be out of there like a bat out of hell.

And no... pretty much every person I've ever known will wait until disaster strikes, or nearly strikes, before getting up off their asses to do something about it. See climate change.

Double "and no"... I don't strive for quality in everything that I do. That's called perfectionism, and it's something of a disease in reality. It paralyzes you and generally makes things incredibly difficult to accomplish. If I make a sandwich, it's probably going to be shitty. But I can't wait until I make the most wonderful and perfect sandwich ever, otherwise I'd starve to death first.

It is often quite acceptable for strive for sufficiency.

 

[CutieMouse]

I am glad to see someone is aware of that. There is a brilliant little book about Sabina Spielrein and Jung, by Aldo Carotenuto, my favorite Italian psychotherapist, called The Secret Symmetry. Absolutely D/s material, thoroughly enjoyed it...

Personally, I tend to give most people involved in D/s a little more credit on things like being curious about dynamics that appear to tilt five degrees to the left.

A Dangerous Method... I don't believe it was widely shown in mainstream theaters, but interesting art house film, nonetheless.

Originally Posted by CutieMouse View Post
I live in the world where regardless of D/s, at the end of the day I carry and equal share of the responsibility of what happens. Which means (for example) if I get triggered, injured, etc I am responsible for speaking up. I am responsible for communicating my needs. I am responsible for making my lover's [dominant's] life easier - which sometimes that means carrying their weight, or utilizing skills I may have that they do not, etc.

I agree. But no one said anything different. Naturally, the sub has her share of responsibility. To serve, to follow, to be perceptive, to do her best, to communicate etc etc.

But that's not what you stated.

You stated -

He is responsible for leading me correctly and if something goes wrong, he assumes the responsibility and tries to put it right. I do not have any other responsibility than to obey, follow his lead and tell the truth.

(Post #59, page 3 of this thread.)

Even in your clarification -

serve, to follow, to be perceptive, to do her best, to communicate etc etc.

I fail to see personal responsibility and (dare I say) ownership (of self, on the submissive side of the equation). In your dynamic's example, the onus is still placed 100% on the dominant party. I disagree with that particular "philosophy" of D/s, more out of concern for the dominant's well being, than the submissive's.

 

[dora_salonica]

You keep using this prescriptive language. "should, shouldn't."

How about instead, using preferential language; "I want a Dom who..." "I want to help my sub improve..."

Lots of people will agree with your preferences, and those who don't agree will be able to say so without animosity.

Oh, I see now what the problem is. I did not mean to sound didactic actually. I do apologize.

Please allow me to clarify my position.

In my personal opinion, I believe in the role of the dominant person in the relationship as the one who accepts full responsibility for the submissive person's well-being and personal improvement. The dominant's deep care for the submissive is the basis of the relationship. Out of this care springs the eternal devotion, love and service of the submissive. The target of this relationship is the ultimate personal freedom of the submissive, not only his/her autonomy, but the ability to exercise free will at all times - and to continue to be the dominant's sub out of choice and not necessity.

Other people may choose to have a different kind of relationship. It is within everyone's right to find the best way to live their life. And I am very comfortable with diversity of opinion, as long as I am also allowed to have my own.

I'm wary of requests to explain kink (or poly, sexual orientation, gender identity etc etc) because so often "please explain" really means "please justify": if you can't provide a complete theory on how this tremendously complex aspect of human behaviour works, you're not allowed to do it. Kinda like telling somebody they need to be able to explain how an electronic fuel injection system works before they're allowed to drive to the shops.

I think it is slightly more important to know how our own sexuality works. I am personally very interested in the mechanism of arousal and pleasure and I do wonder about many aspects of it. When I drive, I do not wonder how the car works - though I do have a general idea.

So my first response is to assert that people who do these things (while observing principles of informed consent) don't owe anybody an explanation. If I discuss it, it's out of intellectual curiosity, not because I feel any sort of duty to discuss.

Thank you very much for your answer. I am afraid it did not explain why the most common fantasy women have is being raped. Overcoming guilt might indeed be the answer in some cases. But not all women feel guilty over having sex. I liked the arousal by association explanation, but again, why rape? It could be bungee jumping or watching thrillers.

Overcoming flight tendencies seems more simple an answer and much more applicable to the majority of cases. If women really want to get fucked, but they are obliged to not want it at the same time, as a natural tendency (unrecognized of course), a rape would solve the problem, right? Now, imagine a woman wanting and not wanting at the same time... Does it sound unreal?<very big smile>

Quality yes, perfection no.

Of course. Perfection is a figment of our imagination. It is there as an end, never to be reached. (Though Chopin's nocturnes have come really close...)

There is no "should", here. Were I to get into a casual relationship with another dominant-type, I would not expect that they try to "improve" me in any kind of objective sense. And were they to try, I'd be out of there like a bat out of hell.

Yes, I am very aware of the fact that lots of submissive people would dislike that sort of intervention. There would be a lot of resistance in the process, I guess, even from those who actually want it.

For me, it was necessary, however. I wanted it and got it and am grateful for it. (I also resisted change.)

And no... pretty much every person I've ever known will wait until disaster strikes, or nearly strikes, before getting up off their asses to do something about it. See climate change.

I am also a last-minute person. My Master is not. He plans ahead. He is an engineer you see. Whereas I just do whatever, lol. Very impulsive...

A Dangerous Method... I don't believe it was widely shown in mainstream theaters, but interesting art house film, nonetheless.

I read about it, I wish I could have attended.

But that's not what you stated...

I fail to see personal responsibility and (dare I say) ownership (of self, on the submissive side of the equation). In your dynamic's example, the onus is still placed 100% on the dominant party. I disagree with that particular "philosophy" of D/s, more out of concern for the dominant's well being, than the submissive's.

I have never said though that the sub has no responsibilities whatsoever. For a full discussion on the submissive's role I believe that we need a whole new thread. I gave some indicative responsibilities, quite general in scope, such as "following the Dom's lead" which includes a broad variety of actions on the sub's part. It is true that I have placed full responsibility for planning, for leading, on the Dom. But this does not mean that the sub is passive, stupid or blameless if she does not follow properly...

I will give you a personal example, if I may. I have a drinking problem. I used to be an AA, a few years back, they worked very well for me. In recent years, bit by bit, the problem came back. I started feeling angry with my Master, misbehaving, not understanding the direction we are going, unable to keep my place in the relationship...Today I decided I need to go back to AA. I cannot do this on my own, I need help. I think that taking this decision was a very responsible thing. I hope that I will succeed in this (addiction is not an easy thing). I would not have taken that decision if I were not a sub in a relationship. I am doing it so I can continue to be a sub, more specifically his sub. And it was not an order, not even a suggestion (though my Master has been trying for a long time to help me cut down). So yes, the sub has many different and important responsibilities.

 

[All_4_Love]

Today I decided I need to go back to AA. I cannot do this on my own, I need help. I think that taking this decision was a very responsible thing. I hope that I will succeed in this (addiction is not an easy thing).

Stepping out of the sidelines of this thread to say that I wish you well in your decision to seek sobriety. Sending lots of good vibes out for you. Take care of yourself, dear lady. One day at a time...

 

[FurryFury]

Gang rape was a fantasy of mine from early on. It was horrible. It was hot. It was being the center of attention. It was being a thing humiliated. It was and is a lot of things to a lot of people but that's what it was for me.

In the society that I was raised in sex was for procreation. You were not supposed to say yes unless you were married or you were bad.

At the same time men were being told that we wanted it and that yes meant no.

I can see how rape fantasies might flourish in a society with these ideas.

Many times I was fondled and assaulted by older men.

An early boyfriend also crossed that line. I knew it only from how he acted the next day. I would have accepted it as normal I guess.

When I was actually raped I didn't even recognize it. I thought it must be love or I was bad. We married. It was a long ten years.

Ironically if he could have looked at the gray rather than the black and white inside himself and others, we could have been a much better match. He was too insecure for that. He was too devoted to pushing others down so he could be, in his own mind shiny white, even if his heart was black.

I still find the nonconsent yet turned on vibe a great fantasy as well as rape. Having lived that way, I've had to repair myself sexually. My current husband has helped a great deal too as has this group at Lit. Accepting my kink self has been key. These days mutual trust and consent is required in my relationships.

 

[IrisAlthea]

I think it is slightly more important to know how our own sexuality works. I am personally very interested in the mechanism of arousal and pleasure and I do wonder about many aspects of it. When I drive, I do not wonder how the car works - though I do have a general idea.


Of course. Perfection is a figment of our imagination. It is there as an end, never to be reached. (Though Chopin's nocturnes have come really close...)


I have never said though that the sub has no responsibilities whatsoever. For a full discussion on the submissive's role I believe that we need a whole new thread. I gave some indicative responsibilities, quite general in scope, such as "following the Dom's lead" which includes a broad variety of actions on the sub's part. It is true that I have placed full responsibility for planning, for leading, on the Dom. But this does not mean that the sub is passive, stupid or blameless if she does not follow properly...

I think it's important to try to understand how your sexuality works.
As for introspection about why it works that way for you, it can be interesting but I don't think it's essential and it can be stressful to some.
There is a reason why CBT (not the kinky kind!) is replacing old school couch therapy on a grand scale.

The thing that annoys me is when people try to find the explanaitions about their sexuality works the way it does, in sweeping generalizations about everyone else.

As for Chopin, I like the nocturnes fine but prefer Bach.
Again you are assuming that what comes close to perfection for you is close to some absolute perfection that is valid for everyone.

As for the submissive's or dominant's role and responsibilities, I think that is totally up to the participants in the specific relationship.

 

[Netzach]

Shouldn't also the dominant ensure that the slave improves himself or herself?

If they want to. If not, that's ok too. As long as She's not doing Her best to ensure that the slave harms himself, then there is no reason to be critical outside the relationship.

It seems that where property is involved, great care is necessary in order to enhance its value and its prospects.

Maybe. Maybe not. Some slaves regulate and maintain themselves well as functioning adults and their value and prospects are enhanced simply by being in an opportunity to serve. Those are the slaves I want, personally. I am not a slave, and do not derive my satisfaction in serving others or worrying about their prospects and their value - I need to take care of my own value and prospects as an artist, a person, and a full functioning entity. I expect that of a slave.

Property owners continue to enjoy their property and see its value increased, and that is why they take good care of it and they do not neglect it. Instead of waiting for trouble, they always enhance the roof, no?

Am I right, or am I just a romantic old fool who dreams of Masters and subs?

No. I want the equivalent of a condo, and I'll pay in, but I'm not taking on the role of supervising the roof improvement. I will cheerlead and pull for a slave's happiness and well being, and I'm not going to be antithetical to it. But I ain't his momma, and I ain't his babysitter, and I ain't his shrink!

Am I just a romantic old fool who believes in grown ass adult independence and some of us are fulfilled by serving AS such?

 

[Netzach]

[re. rape]

1. Some people, especially women, are socialised to feel guilty about wanting sex. Rape fantasy offers a way to fantasise about sex without feeling guilt, because in the fantasy they're not choosing to have sex.

2. Some people use fantasy as a way of confronting RL fears and getting them under control. I remember one story here where a character hired actors to recreate her abduction and rape, letting her change the ending by stealing the fake-rapist's gun and shooting him (with blanks).

3. Rape fantasies might be part of a much broader human tendency to seek out things that frighten us: scary movies, roller-coaster rides, etc. I'm sure there are several explanations for that; one is that our endocrine system reacts to stressful situations by pumping out things like adrenaline to assist in fight-or-flight reactions, and endorphins to overcome pain from injury. Scaring oneself can be a way of tricking the body into giving us that fix. It could also be an arousal-by-association trick: use fear to get the body to approximate the physiological symptoms of arousal (heart pounding, skin flushed, etc etc) as a way of tricking oneself into feeling arousal.

There may well be others - I'm just presenting these as possibilities, not as a definitive answer. And it may be that we're not capable of comprehending the full answer; as some wit said, "if the human mind was simple enough to be understood, it'd be so simple that we couldn't understand".

I am currently hoarse. I am hoarse because I talk to men for hours on end about whatever fantasy they want to throw my way. I would say that being sexually overwhelmed, overpowered, raped or pseudo raped (almost always by a man) is the most common human fantasy there is. You nailed it as to "why?"

I think the only reason that the male prevalence of this exact fantasy isn't really dealt with is that there's no mainstream self-report where men are actually going to be as honest as they are when they're the ones paying to disclose.

People who get off on being the active party, the doer, the driver, are probably in the minority. More among men than women, but men who are exclusively Dom in the sheets and not just on the streets are probably pretty rare also.