The beauty of submissive men

[SEVERUSMAX]

I don't see a problem with objectifying someone up to a point, as frankly people are objects to each other...it just helps to remember that this is a person, male or female, and that he or she is making himself or herself vulnerable to you, trusting you with that power.

 

[KoPilot]

Neither dom nor sub-with-a-dick, but... even tho I'm a sub I objectify the hell out of men I find aesthetically appealing. Dominance doesn't have the patent on objectification, and subs definitely don't have to humanize their D's all the time ;9

The menfolk subs are exempt from this tho. ;V

 

[Veroe]

I don't see a problem with objectifying someone up to a point, as frankly people are objects to each other...it just helps to remember that this is a person, male or female, and that he or she is making himself or herself vulnerable to you, trusting you with that power.

Good point, Sev. You can act as if you're objectifying the sub to spice a scene but as long as its primarily part of the scene and if the sub enjoys being objectified.

Women in my experience hate it when men do that to them.

 

[twister947]

Please indulge a non sequitur...I bought Ferns' book for my other, and she has been devouring it. Money well spent.

As you were...

 

[Veroe]

On second though, i have to concede that the objectification theme combined with all the model pics and the phrasing did combine to touch a nerve. Not insulted... but ... like it skirted around a deep wound.

I apologize if any of the pics I posted helped in striking that nerve, Stag. That was not my intent in posting them.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Just have to know when to objectify and when not to. In the end, yes, we are objects to people in many ways, not just sex, but we are also people. The two are not mutually exclusive. Hard to recall, but true.

But yeah, women often get objectified in a way that is frankly dehumanizing as well, and that would be something to object to.

 

[bailadora]

Please indulge a non sequitur...I bought Ferns' book for my other, and she has been devouring it. Money well spent.

As you were...

I haven't bought her book, but I love her blog.

 

[ShyMaleSub]

Personally, I like the mix of discussion and pictures. The pictures don't just provide a distraction. They generate discussion as well, and they at times provide an illustration to a point made in the discussion.

 

[tanyachrs]

I said it was a sucky message and it is, so I don't like that I send it, but that's my truth: objectification is at least fifty percent of my kink in this direction.

Of course, my idea of the perfect male form is only mine. I have no attachment to height and find beefy men unappealing. I'd probably have liked the "too skinny" guy. I always have. Facially, the one you love has the face you love, don't you find?

If I wanted a sissy boy, I'd get a woman and save myself a step. But again, that's just me. Lots of room for everyone to pick their own spot, as it should be.

 

[Erochic]

Thank you. I do understand.

I don't think I need to regurgitate the same talking points we see against threads being taken over by female model pics, but there was a point a few days ago that I poked in here... saw all the pics... and just thought "well there it goes"...

still... if eye candy keeps the Ladies happy; let them eat cake?

As the OP I take the blame for that, because my vision of this thread was pretty vague - links, photos, stories anything really that looked at male submission and female dominance in a human way.

The thread has been successful beyond my wildest dreams - I didn't imagine that I was building a little community, and that the conversations here would get me thinking and get me to look at things in different ways and support me too.

As I have said a number of times I'm absolutely thrilled.

I originally asked Veroe to join this thread and post pics when I came across him on another thread - because I can't post pictures myself because I always access Lit from my phone. And recently I was doing some drooling over bondage cuffs and he posted pictures for me.
My original idea about posting images was to get away from the stereotyped fetishizing of femdom and Dommes that left me very cold, and towards warmer more erotic photos of male submission that I could relate to and opened up the erotic for dominant women.
And that has been successful if measured by the response of the women here. It's an erotic field that often seems to be neglected as a category - so I'd never seen much before - and to be honest I am enjoying the erotic thrill.

But, this thread has also become a place of really interesting discussions and I can understand how I would feel annoyed to be having a great conversation and then it was suddenly interrupted by lots of photos of boobs (maybe not such a good analogy because I like boobs) - and it would feel superficial and not respectful.

Maybe we agree to make a spin off thread just for images, and keep this one for discussion and community.

 

[tanyachrs]

How about: if you post a picture you should add a comment, in keeping with the idea of generating discussion. This thread has such great diversity, I hate to see anything banned.

I'll now go see what Veroe has added to that other thread which started with so much stereotypical ick I'd stopped clicking the links.

 

[SultryKitten75]

I find the photos erotic. But then, I am a newbie to the thread.
I will honor and respect any decision Erochic makes, regarding any further photos posted to this thread.

But till then, I'm going to sit over here, and eat my piece of the cake.

 

[Apollo Wilde]

I said it was a sucky message and it is, so I don't like that I send it, but that's my truth: objectification is at least fifty percent of my kink in this direction.

Of course, my idea of the perfect male form is only mine. I have no attachment to height and find beefy men unappealing. I'd probably have liked the "too skinny" guy. I always have. Facially, the one you love has the face you love, don't you find?

If I wanted a sissy boy, I'd get a woman and save myself a step. But again, that's just me. Lots of room for everyone to pick their own spot, as it should be.

I've spoken a lot about emotion and connection here, and by all means, I've written how I've felt.

Buttttt...

I feel as I'm in the minority here when I say I do like my men a little more on the muscular side - not just because of the objectification, but because I appreciate the work and discipline that goes into maintaining that physique. Swimmer's build, dancer's, gymnast, martial artist - they're all on the leaner side, but muscular and capable. I went from having an appeal for "prettier" men to much more masculine ones, and who knows where I'll end up in the next few years. To not allow yourself the freedom in saying, "My tastes vary," I think you miss out.

I definitely like the Hollywood muscular approach, too - or can. Again, it's like a buffet - why stop at one dish when there's a plethora for every taste and attitude? And at the end of the day, I know they get paid to look like that, and I get a little envious. What I couldn't do with a personal trainer/stylist!

As someone who works out (although not as much as I should), there's the underlying thread of, "This person also appreciates the work I put in," so when I see those firm biceps and tight thighs, I'm not just seeing something pleasing, I'm seeing the sweat and willpower that went into sculpting that. Sleek, powerful bodies - momma likes. A sub and a personal trainer - please sign me up. We can do one-armed push ups together. It'll be glorious. In my experience, there seems to be a sense of entitlement that some men have for a woman to look a certain way while he can go to seed, and I suppose part of my attraction builds on that as well. I want to know my hard work is appreciated and reciprocated.

There's also the idea of physical power; if he looks like he can overpower me but is still at my feet, that's a thrill.

There seems to be this general idea, or impression, that you can't have a conventionally attractive guy and still have the heart within domination. I think that's a fallacy; attraction has to be there. And what we all find attractive, as we've seen, wildly varies. And that is swell

 

[Veroe]

What if I were to put any pictures I post here as links rather than embedded images? Would that keep from breaking up any conversations going on?

 

[Veroe]

I've spoken a lot about emotion and connection here, and by all means, I've written how I've felt.

Buttttt...

I feel as I'm in the minority here when I say I do like my men a little more on the muscular side - not just because of the objectification, but because I appreciate the work and discipline that goes into maintaining that physique. Swimmer's build, dancer's, gymnast, martial artist - they're all on the leaner side, but muscular and capable. I went from having an appeal for "prettier" men to much more masculine ones, and who knows where I'll end up in the next few years. To not allow yourself the freedom in saying, "My tastes vary," I think you miss out.

I definitely like the Hollywood muscular approach, too - or can. Again, it's like a buffet - why stop at one dish when there's a plethora for every taste and attitude? And at the end of the day, I know they get paid to look like that, and I get a little envious. What I couldn't do with a personal trainer/stylist!

As someone who works out (although not as much as I should), there's the underlying thread of, "This person also appreciates the work I put in," so when I see those firm biceps and tight thighs, I'm not just seeing something pleasing, I'm seeing the sweat and willpower that went into sculpting that. Sleek, powerful bodies - momma likes. A sub and a personal trainer - please sign me up. We can do one-armed push ups together. It'll be glorious.

There's also the idea of physical power; if he looks like he can overpower me but is still at my feet, that's a thrill.

There seems to be this general idea, or impression, that you can't have a conventionally attractive guy and still have the heart within domination. I think that's a fallacy; attraction has to be there. And what we all find attractive, as we've seen, wildly varies. And that is swell

Yes this reflects my own views on the subject.

certainly towards fit women as well as men. I have long thought that there's a connection between a personal trainer and domme. I've been trying to come up with a RP idea based on that on and off for a couple years now.

But there seems to me to be the same level of stigma for women with muscle tone as there are for dominant women.

 

[tanyachrs]

Apollo Wilde, my type are climbers and guys who do yoga, so we're not far off, I think. If you ever want to see a nice back, Google bouldering. I like backs, so kneel down and Show me, right? And yes, I do those things myself, so I agree, I appreciate a guy who is caring for his body and also has a drive towards something, like I do.

Anyway, room for all tastes.

 

[krackheadkathy]

you will never have to do dishes again. YAY!

 

[Erochic]

you will never have to do dishes again. YAY!

Well that's always nice in theory, but there's quite a bit more to it than that - for everyone involved.

 

[Touch_72]

Wow, I've missed a lot... and I need to get to bed, too, but just to throw a few thoughts in...

I don't mind objectification as part of a sexual scenario or scene. It can be a tool and doesn't need to reflect the overall attitude or tone of the relationship (general sense of the word, not just romantic). Constant objectification with no sense of appreciation of who I am, though, not so much. It's all about balance, situation, how it's done, etc.

Objectification can, believe it or not, have a positive upside. I would not say I feel totally objectified in my pics thread... in fact, my "fans" there seem to appreciate the person behind the pics and I appreciate that. But, you could say that I offer myself up for objectification and there certainly is an element of that, but...

It has affected my self-view as far as my appearance... and in a good way. I did not expect the response I got... it really did take me aback. I do have more confidence in that part of me.

Is that dysfunctional? Some may say. I don't think so, though. All of us have things about ourselves we're not too keen on, physically or not, and affirmation by others is a form of support that helps us out of our hyper-criticism of ourselves. Who's to say that objectification in the right context and situation doesn't actually provide that affirmation?

Oh... that's right... society says that. "Objectification is BAD... BAD BAD BAD."

That's the politically correct line, but it throws a blanket over all forms of objectification and all situations in which there is an objectifying element, calling all of it bad. I agree that there are times and places and ways in which it can be a negative thing, but I think it's hasty to do battle with all forms of it.

 

[Erochic]

Anyway back to the subject of objectification

I really do love how we are tackling all the deep interesting topics, for the most part fairly cordially.

My favourite quote on the subject of objectification comes from the GB actually

I don't believe giving a woman what she wants, is objectification or degradation. Giving her something she doesn't want is a different matter.

If she wants to dress up like pirates and use a pegleg for a dildo, I'll swab her mainsail, if that's what it takes.

But I think the problem is that we really need 2 different words for the concept of objectification because we are talking about two different things.

One type of objectification is closely related to degradation and humiliation and is a kind of depersonalization or dehumanizion.
That I cannot stand.
I do not allow any kind of humiliation and I stand up against dehumanization. A lot of even main stream porn is about this kind of objectification where people are just referred to by their body parts - like they don't even exist as people. I hate the term BBC - even though I'm not either black nor do I have a cock - because that's just reducing a person to one body part and fetishizing it.

I think Stag of Oberon is reacting strongly because of feelings about this kind of objectification - which is very understandable.

The other kind of objectification we are discussing I think could be more accurately referred to as the "erotic gaze".
A lot of sexual attraction is about the erotic gaze - we always hear about how men are visual creatures after all.
There is a lot of argument about it, and you could say that for things like porn or pinups the erotic gaze crosses over into depersonalized objectification.
But we all want to be desired by our sexual partners and to have them think we are attractive.
We are most used to the erotic gaze being directed by men at women, and there are entire industries built up around that.
Even though there is more understanding nowadays that women look too, its still kind of a taboo.
When I would get my ex to stand there naked and I would devour him with my eyes, it was a kind of almost guilty but electric pleasure.
This was a man I was deeply in love with and respected and whose mind I adored (I fell for him first online because of his intellect) - so there was not a scrap of humiliation or depersonalization about my feelings - instead it felt very powerful and intense (and kind of forbidden) to focus my erotic gaze upon him and drink him in in a wonderful carnal way... And he would enjoy my admiration and enjoyment of him... As part of me wanting him.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Yes this reflects my own views on the subject.

certainly towards fit women as well as men. I have long thought that there's a connection between a personal trainer and domme. I've been trying to come up with a RP idea based on that on and off for a couple years now.

But there seems to me to be the same level of stigma for women with muscle tone as there are for dominant women.

Jillian Michaels always had that Domme air to her, for sure.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Anyway back to the subject of objectification

I really do love how we are tackling all the deep interesting topics, for the most part fairly cordially.

My favourite quote on the subject of objectification comes from the GB actually



But I think the problem is that we really need 2 different words for the concept of objectification because we are talking about two different things.

One type of objectification is closely related to degradation and humiliation and is a kind of depersonalization or dehumanizion.
That I cannot stand.
I do not allow any kind of humiliation and I stand up against dehumanization. A lot of even main stream porn is about this kind of objectification where people are just referred to by their body parts - like they don't even exist as people. I hate the term BBC - even though I'm not either black nor do I have a cock - because that's just reducing a person to one body part and fetishizing it.

I think Stag of Oberon is reacting strongly because of feelings about this kind of objectification - which is very understandable.

The other kind of objectification we are discussing I think could be more accurately referred to as the "erotic gaze".
A lot of sexual attraction is about the erotic gaze - we always hear about how men are visual creatures after all.
There is a lot of argument about it, and you could say that for things like porn or pinups the erotic gaze crosses over into depersonalized objectification.
But we all want to be desired by our sexual partners and to have them think we are attractive.
We are most used to the erotic gaze being directed by men at women, and there are entire industries built up around that.
Even though there is more understanding nowadays that women look too, its still kind of a taboo.
When I would get my ex to stand there naked and I would devour him with my eyes, it was a kind of almost guilty but electric pleasure.
This was a man I was deeply in love with and respected and whose mind I adored (I fell for him first online because of his intellect) - so there was not a scrap of humiliation or depersonalization about my feelings - instead it felt very powerful and intense (and kind of forbidden) to focus my erotic gaze upon him and drink him in in a wonderful carnal way... And he would enjoy my admiration and enjoyment of him... As part of me wanting him.

This is very relevant and accurate in many ways, I believe, for a lot of people.

 

[Erochic]

Maybe what is also clouding the issue is that perhaps some of us dominant women (and other women too) enjoy using the word "objectification" when they really mean nothing of the sort.
I know I do, very much.

Maybe it's a kind of turning the tables, or a sexual power that gets to be aggressive and assertive rather than passive.
I don't ever mean it in a demeaning way, and I would never ever treat someone like a thing or humiliate them - but to tell someone that I'm "objectifying" them with a wicked lustful grin is a very strong turn on.

It's that I know what I like just as I want and I'm going to admire that as I like - a kind of strong sexual confidence
But I would never want to do that to someone who didn't want it... But when he enjoys being the object of my gaze then it is electric

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

And in the end, that is the real point, isn't it? Wanted vs. unwanted lust? Not that we can prevent ourselves from feeling unwanted lust, of course. More that if you want it done, you don't object to what you did. As often, you seem to show a window into the Domme mind that encourages a better understanding of it. Which is good.

Far better this perspective than the Lit stereotype of Dommes as vicious, selfish women who just want to ruin their men. That stereotype reflects a tiny minority, I do believe.

 

[eroticspank]

Maybe it's a kind of turning the tables, or a sexual power that gets to be aggressive and assertive rather than passive.

It's that I know what I like just as I want and I'm going to admire that as I like - a kind of strong sexual confidence
But I would never want to do that to someone who didn't want it... But when he enjoys being the object of my gaze then it is electric

This really turns me on and is exactly what I was talking about earlier in regards to objectification. Like you mentioned above I am talking about objectification in a non-demeaning way.

Instead of sitting there, trying to avert her eyes from physical parts of my body my gf likes, trying not to offend or objectify, I like the fact that if she is dominant, her aggressive sexual confidence comes out and she grabs my dick if she wants to and leads me to the bedroom. At that point we have already had the intellectual interaction that involves getting to know one another, trust each other and feel comfortable together. I am happy to be there for her pleasure and satisfaction and comply with all of her directions. I enjoy that she is into my body (I already know she is into me as mentioned.) and the more she gets turned on in devouring me, the more I get turned on by being devoured. We feed off each other's intensity and the passion, noises in the bedroom go off the scale.

After we are back to a normal heartbeat, there is aftercare, holding and it is on to admiring our inner selves, feelings etc.

ES