Style guide - the AH way.

[Altissimus]

I've found myself reading books on writing recently, and, scarily, enjoying them.

It would seem that far wiser and more experienced minds than mine have basically argued that a lot of the 'rules' we may (or, for that matter, may not) have learnt in school aren't quite as absolute as our tweed-wearing English teachers may have had us believe.

So, I open to the floor, with a genuine interest in all responses, a little quiz. There are no right-or-wrong answers (and no prizes, either); I think what will be interesting on this exercise is the consensus - if there is one.

1) Do you always have to start a new para if you're going to have a new person say some dialogue?
'I wanted to know whether or not you could start speech in the middle of a paragraph. "Is there any reason you can't?" I asked.'

vs

'I wanted to know whether or not you could start speech in the middle of a paragraph. "Is there any reason you can't?" I asked, starting a new paragraph, asserting myself as speaker at the cost of disassociating the direct connection to the previous sentence.'

2) Comma after a short intro sentence a) always or b) optionally? e.g.

'In that moment I decided I wasn't going to be cowed' vs 'In that moment, I deicded I wasn't going to be cowed' 'I must confess I didn't sleep particularly well' vs 'I must confess, I didn't sleep particularly well' 'Nevertheless even his attitude seemed to grate.' vs 'Nevertheless, even his attitude seemed to grate'

3) Let's play 'Comma or not':

a) (easily) '“You won’t be needing this,” and that easily I was rendered naked before strangers.' vs '“You won’t be needing this,” and that easily, I was rendered naked before strangers.' b) (like me) 'She smiled at me again as she left, and I was glad that she seemed to like me given how good a look at me she had just had.' vs 'She smiled at me again as she left, and I was glad that she seemed to like me, given how good a look at me she had just had.' c) (in that) 'My uniform was, of course, the same as every other employee I had seen, and in that there was some comfort.' vs 'My uniform was, of course, the same as every other employee I had seen, and in that, there was some comfort.'

Answers on a postcard

 

[ElectricBlue]

1. Mostly yes. Sometimes, no.

If you don't format dialogue in the conventional way, make sure you know why you're doing it, don't do it too often, and don't make it look like a mistake. Know the rules before you break them. Most dialogue errors I see are from not knowing the basic conventions, which are there for a reason.

2. Optional. I'm forever adding commas, taking them out, changing them to full-stops. When I edit for @stickygirl, we call them her sparrows.

3. Punctuation is like breathing, you have to keep the flow. I call it the cadence and cascade of a sentence, its poetic flow. That's what punctuation is for, to help the narrative breathe, to keep the story alive.

 

[Bramblethorn]

1) Do you always have to start a new para if you're going to have a new person say some dialogue?
'I wanted to know whether or not you could start speech in the middle of a paragraph. "Is there any reason you can't?" I asked.'

But you only have one speaker here. No need for a paragraph break.

 

[WyreBendr0417]

I always start a new paragraph when dialog changes characters. Mostly because that's the way I like to read dialog.

As far as the other things, I think a lot is determined by context and the tone of your characters. I use Pro Writing Aid or editing and tweaking, but I don't always agree with a lot of it's suggestions because it goes against what I'm trying to say or how I'm trying to say it.

 

[Altissimus]

1. Mostly yes. Sometimes, no.

True words, generally.

If you don't format dialogue in the conventional way...

Is it conventional, then, to begin a new para when introducing dialogue as per the example above?

Know the rules before you break them.

Quite. Not sure I know this particular rule though.

2. Optional.

Thank you; your answer has been recorded.

I'm forever adding commas, taking them out

This sounds vaguely familiar.

3. Punctuation is like breathing, you have to keep the flow. I call it the cadence and cascade of a sentence, its poetic flow. That's what punctuation is for, to help the narrative breathe, to keep the story alive.

Agreed. So, be so kind as to commit on the examples I gave. Comma or not? Swipe left or right?

 

[StillStunned]

Rule zero: make the narrative as clear as possible for your reader to follow.

All other rules: argue among yourselves like linguists have been doing for centuries.

 

[SimonDoom]

1. I don't know what you are doing here. You don't have two speakers, so it doesn't make your point.

2. "short intro sentence": "In that moment" is not a sentence. It's a phrase that modifies the verb "decided." I think it's better to have the comma, but there's some wiggle room.

"I must confess": I would ditch the comma because the phrase. There's an implied but missing "that" after "confess."

Always use a comma after "Nevertheless."

3. a) makes no sense to me. It's just plain ungrammatical.

b) I think it's OK for style to trump grammar on this one.

c) It's a bad, ungrammatical sentence, and punctuation cannot rescue it. Your uniform is the same as an employee? No. Your uniform is the same as the uniform of every employee, or the same as that of every employee. Uniforms and employees cannot be compared.

 

[Mastered_again]

Being my education in grammar was "old school," as in the '60's, that influences my usage.

1. New paragraph for each speaker

2. Optional

3. a no comma
b yes comma
c no comma

That said, the most important aspect is to maintain clarity with rhe reader.
However, I'll often violate sentence structure when the narrator is thinking to herself, because that is how my thoughts arrive in real life - in fragments, not complete sentences

 

[ElectricBlue]

Is it conventional, then, to begin a new para when introducing dialogue as per the example above?

That's the current convention, yes, a separate paragraph for each speaker's dialogue. In my "published novels" reading, I'd say it was common well into the 1970's and 80's to see authors embedding dialogue within a paragraph. Laurence Durrell, for example, does it constantly. But then, his paragraphs can be four-five hundred words long, he's a real block of text writer.

Agreed. So, be so kind as to commit on the examples I gave. Comma or not? Swipe left or right?

What, you want free edit services now .

The beat of a sentence depends on the whole context, not a snippet in isolation. But the better grammar hounds did the close reading, whereas I skimmed.

 

[Altissimus]

1. I don't know what you are doing here. You don't have two speakers, so it doesn't make your point.

The point - the question - is whether you need to start a para to place dialogue, or whether you can have other words beforehand.

2. "short intro sentence": "In that moment" is not a sentence. It's a phrase that modifies the verb "decided." I think it's better to have the comma, but there's some wiggle room.

"I must confess": I would ditch the comma because the phrase. There's an implied but missing "that" after "confess."

Always use a comma after "Nevertheless."

Thank you.

3. a) makes no sense to me. It's just plain ungrammatical.

Okay... I don't see that, but okay. Even out of context the sentence seems okay to me.

c) It's a bad, ungrammatical sentence, and punctuation cannot rescue it. Your uniform is the same as an employee? No. Your uniform is the same as the uniform of every employee, or the same as that of every employee. Uniforms and employees cannot be compared.

Ah, well, that's a fair point. In my defence I was concentrating more on the position of the commas than the accuracy of my examples. Such tomfoolery amidst such pedants, I know So how about:

'My uniform was, of course, the same as every other employee's I had seen, and in that there was some comfort.' vs 'My uniform was, of course, the same as every other employee's I had seen, and in that, there was some comfort.'

...and in the spirit of looking at the comma, rather than whether or not all employees were exactly the same size

 

[KeithD]

The basic issue is that high school English teachers were primarily teaching essay writing. Fiction writing is a whole different bag from that.

 

[stickygirl]

The beat of a sentence depends on the whole context, not a snippet in isolation. But the better grammar hounds did the close reading, whereas I skimmed.

Exactly.

I suspect I've known and felt the rhythm in speech before I understood the meaning of words. Words are heart beats and the rhythm of a sentence should sit comfortably with the meaning of the words - we do it instinctively. Famous speeches will often end in three beats or words for example.

I was not surprised to hear Greta Gerwig, in directing a busy domestic scene in Little Women, would close her eyes to listen to the rhythm of the actors words, then ask to change the tempo here or there until it sounded natural to her ear.

So let the punctuation and paragraph breaks work for you. Be consistent in your style to avoid confusing readers. Remember that the paper on which we compose is free of charge and space on the page gives the eyes room to breathe. We all dread those Wagnerian paragraphs that yawn down the page like a bore at a party.

 

[SimonDoom]

a) (easily) '“You won’t be needing this,” and that easily I was rendered naked before strangers.' vs '“You won’t be needing this,” and that easily, I was rendered naked before strangers.'

I don't know what this sentence is doing. You have a line of dialogue and no tag or attribution. Who is speaking the line?

What is "and that easily I was rendered naked before strangers"?

What are you trying to say here? What does "that" refer to? You shouldn't use a relative pronoun without it clearly referring to something, but I have no idea what it refers to. Does "easily" modify "rendered?"

Do you mean to say:

"You won't be needing this," he said, and he easily rendered me naked before strangers.

??

 

[KeithD]

So let the punctuation and paragraph breaks work for you. Be consistent in your style to avoid confusing readers. Remember that the paper on which we compose is free of charge and space on the page gives the eyes room to breathe. We all dread those Wagnerian paragraphs that yawn down the page like a bore at a party.

Tempered, though, I think, by readers being able to follow what you're doing without it becoming intrusive in their read. It isn't all by whatever quirk you like and can deliver consistently.

 

[Bramblethorn]

The point - the question - is whether you need to start a para to place dialogue, or whether you can have other words beforehand.

I initially took the question as asking about a change of speaker, so I found the example confusing too. Especially because you're using quotes to mark out the entire example, so it looked like you had dialogue quoting dialogue.

I find it useful to think in terms of "extended dialogue" and story beats. Punctuation should be driven not just by technical rules but by what's happening in the story, and one of its most important purposes is to convey the tempo of interaction. For example:

"You are the food lady?"

"Yes…?" I would have preferred to be thought of as a fellow researcher, or as a member of the conference committee, but I'd helped organise the catering and I supposed that did make me "the food lady".

She tapped the name badge that identified her as Dr. Nadezhda Kapustina, University of Sergeigrad, which I recalled to be the capital of the small nation of Serjarus. "I have reserved lunch with no dairy. Where is it?"

Here, tapping the name badge is a form of communication. It's not verbal, but it's very much part of the same conversation that continues with "I have reserved lunch with no dairy". So it belongs in the same paragraph. If I was making a film of this, both of those would be happening in the same shot, possibly simultaneously.)

(Arguably, the "which I recalled to be the capital of Serjarus" doesn't belong there, because it's a digression back to the narrator's POV. But it's a minor one, and the alternatives seemed worse than putting it there.)

"Have you—" And then it hit me: she hadn't even noticed that we were rivals. I reviewed our past interactions as best I could remember them, trying to figure out how much of what I'd interpreted as hostility could be explained instead by language differences and a certain Eastern-bloc bluntness. Most, perhaps. Not all.

"Dr. Kapustina. Do you remember how we first met?"

She was silent.

"You swore at me because somebody else took your lunch."

Here, only one person (Patricia, the narrator) is speaking. She only has two short sentences plus two fragments, but I've chunked it up into four paragraphs. Between the first and second, she's paused, re-evaluated her interactions with Nadja, and changed tack. The third paragraph is Nadja's response - which is wordless, but still significant - so that too gets breaks at either side.

(Some might argue that the second paragraph should better be punctuated as "Dr. Kapustina, do you remember how we first met?" But those people would be wrong. The full stop is meant to be audible there.)

Usually this means I only have one speaker per paragraph, but sometimes an exchange of dialogue feels better as one paragraph. This one is partly related rather than quoted speech, but same idea:

Now and then, one of the other women would smile at me and say something – I caught novaya once, I remembered that was "new" – and I'd smile back, shaking my head, and tell them "I only speak English". A couple tried to make conversation in my language, but it was too loud for me to make much out, so I just went on smiling, and that seemed to satisfy them.

The other women aren't important to the rest of the story, they're more just part of setting a scene where Patricia is a newcomer and Nadja is showing her around, so I'm happy for all of that to go in one paragraph. It helps the reader understand that this isn't going to be the focus.

I might occasionally use multiple speakers in one paragraph as a way of conveying a rapid and confusing exchange, but I don't have an example handy.


Here, the other women aren't particularly important, they're just setting the scene where Patricia is a newcomer,

 

[KeithD]

I don't know what this sentence is doing. You have a line of dialogue and no tag or attribution. Who is speaking the line?

I'm finding far too much, even in the mainstream, of attribution being stripped back so much that I often have no idea who spoke a given dialog line.

 

[Altissimus]

I don't know what this sentence is doing. You have a line of dialogue and no tag or attribution. Who is speaking the line?

TBH I didn't really think it mattered. I was focusing on one tiny squiggle in a context that stood (I thought) by itself. I don't think you could give me different contexts for that sentence that would affect whether or not the comma should, or should not, be placed. Either it should, or it shouldn't, or it's open to the writer and what they want to achieve - but in none of those scenarios does the context make a difference. I'd be really interested to see how you might evidence differently.

Dialogue tagging isn't necessary if it's clear in the overall passage - which, obviously, this is not.

 

[SimonDoom]

TBH I didn't really think it mattered. I was focusing on one tiny squiggle in a context that stood (I thought) by itself. I don't think you could give me different contexts for that sentence that would affect whether or not the comma should, or should not, be placed. Either it should, or it shouldn't, or it's open to the writer and what they want to achieve - but in none of those scenarios does the context make a difference. I'd be really interested to see how you might evidence differently.

Dialogue tagging isn't necessary if it's clear in the overall passage - which, obviously, this is not.

I agree that tags aren't always necessary, and I agree context isn't the issue. The problem is that the sentence, standing by itself, is not grammatically comprehensible. I don't understand the "and," the "that," and the "easily." It's not a sentence. You didn't confirm whether my reformulation states, if in different form, what you are trying to say, so I don't know what you are trying to say. The placement of the comma makes no difference in this case.

 

[Altissimus]

I agree that tags aren't always necessary, and I agree context isn't the issue. The problem is that the sentence, standing by itself, is not grammatically comprehensible. I don't understand the "and," the "that," and the "easily." It's not a sentence. You didn't confirm whether my reformulation states, if in different form, what you are trying to say, so I don't know what you are trying to say. The placement of the comma makes no difference in this case.

I can feel your pain from here. It doesn't really matter, we could just move on. I think I have the answers I was seeking anyway (the consensus I read is 'do your thing, just make it accessible', which fortunately is the view I've always held too) but, for completion:

"You won’t be needing this,” she said, pulling my towel from around me, and that easily I was rendered naked before strangers.
"You won’t be needing this,” she said, pulling my towel from around me, and, that easily, I was rendered naked before strangers.

...obviously it could be written a number of other ways, too, but I don't care about the sentence structure. I was more curious as to where people threw their squiggles about - essentially whether more is more, or less is more.

 

[firmbutgentle]

I've found myself reading books on writing recently, and, scarily, enjoying them.

It would seem that far wiser and more experienced minds than mine have basically argued that a lot of the 'rules' we may (or, for that matter, may not) have learnt in school aren't quite as absolute as our tweed-wearing English teachers may have had us believe.

So, I open to the floor, with a genuine interest in all responses, a little quiz. There are no right-or-wrong answers (and no prizes, either); I think what will be interesting on this exercise is the consensus - if there is one.

1) Do you always have to start a new para if you're going to have a new person say some dialogue?
'I wanted to know whether or not you could start speech in the middle of a paragraph. "Is there any reason you can't?" I asked.'

vs

'I wanted to know whether or not you could start speech in the middle of a paragraph. "Is there any reason you can't?" I asked, starting a new paragraph, asserting myself as speaker at the cost of disassociating the direct connection to the previous sentence.'

2) Comma after a short intro sentence a) always or b) optionally? e.g.

'In that moment I decided I wasn't going to be cowed' vs 'In that moment, I deicded I wasn't going to be cowed' 'I must confess I didn't sleep particularly well' vs 'I must confess, I didn't sleep particularly well' 'Nevertheless even his attitude seemed to grate.' vs 'Nevertheless, even his attitude seemed to grate'

3) Let's play 'Comma or not':

a) (easily) '“You won’t be needing this,” and that easily I was rendered naked before strangers.' vs '“You won’t be needing this,” and that easily, I was rendered naked before strangers.' b) (like me) 'She smiled at me again as she left, and I was glad that she seemed to like me given how good a look at me she had just had.' vs 'She smiled at me again as she left, and I was glad that she seemed to like me, given how good a look at me she had just had.' c) (in that) 'My uniform was, of course, the same as every other employee I had seen, and in that there was some comfort.' vs 'My uniform was, of course, the same as every other employee I had seen, and in that, there was some comfort.'

Answers on a postcard

1. If the sentence leads directly into the quote, perhaps. Not sure about your example.
2. That’s an ear question. For your examples; yes/no/depends on the tone you want.
3a. The sentence reads badly without the comma.
3b. Depends on the tone you want for the character. Leaving it out makes it a little breathless.
3c. Leave it out. The sentence has too many pauses already.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I can feel your pain from here. It doesn't really matter, we could just move on. I think I have the answers I was seeking anyway (the consensus I read is 'do your thing, just make it accessible', which fortunately is the view I've always held too) but, for completion:

"You won’t be needing this,” she said, pulling my towel from around me, and that easily I was rendered naked before strangers.
"You won’t be needing this,” she said, pulling my towel from around me, and, that easily, I was rendered naked before strangers.

...obviously it could be written a number of other ways, too, but I don't care about the sentence structure. I was more curious as to where people threw their squiggles about - essentially whether more is more, or less is more.

Digressing from your original question, I think part of the issue with this particular example is an ambiguous "that".

Let's freeze-frame in mid-sentence:

"You won’t be needing this,” she said, pulling my towel from around me, and that

For the reader, having made it this far and no further, there are two different directions the "and that" could be going.

The first option is your "...and that easily, I was rendered naked before strangers". This is a valid construction, but it's not a very common one.

The more common option would be something like "and that left me naked before strangers". When I first read the sentence I hit the "that", was expecting the latter construction, then got confused and had to backtrack to figure out that you were actually using the former. I try to avoid that kind of flow-break in writing, even when it might be grammatically correct.

Something like "...pulling my towel from around me. That easily was I rendered naked before strangers." Or perhaps "...pulling my towel around me, and with that I was rendered naked before strangers."

For the comma you're actually asking about there, this is one where my choice would depend more on my sense of pacing than on a grammatical rule. "...that easily, I was" draws it out a bit more than "...that easily I was" and that might or might not be a good thing depending on what timing feels right to me.

 

[SimonDoom]

I can feel your pain from here. It doesn't really matter, we could just move on. I think I have the answers I was seeking anyway (the consensus I read is 'do your thing, just make it accessible', which fortunately is the view I've always held too) but, for completion:

"You won’t be needing this,” she said, pulling my towel from around me, and that easily I was rendered naked before strangers.
"You won’t be needing this,” she said, pulling my towel from around me, and, that easily, I was rendered naked before strangers.

...obviously it could be written a number of other ways, too, but I don't care about the sentence structure. I was more curious as to where people threw their squiggles about - essentially whether more is more, or less is more.

I understand. But if the words aren't right, nobody can tell you where to put the commas around them. It won't matter.

The reformulated versions you offered are still grammatically wrong, or at best awkward. The "that" is either grammatically wrong or clunky. I'd get rid of it.

"Easily" is somewhat awkward, and I think unnecessary.

It would read better if you made the two parts of the sentence after "said" parallel. As it stands you have a participial phrase ("pulling my towel from around me") followed by an independent clause ("and easily I was rendered naked before strangers"). I think it would be better to have two of the one or the other.

A good tip is that if you have a proposed sentence where the comma usage is unclear, you might want to put the comma question to the side and rework the words of the sentence first. With better wording, the comma question may resolve itself.

This would, IMO, be correct, clear, and stylistically better:

"You won't be needing this," she said, pulling my towel from around me and rendering me naked before strangers.

1. It's completely clear.
2. It gets rid of the unnecessary words "that" and "easily."
3. It changes the passive "I was rendered" to the more active participial phrase "rendering me naked" (which refers back to the subject pronoun "she"; "she" is the one doing the pulling AND the rendering).
4. It's parallel, and therefore both clearer and more elegant.

 

[Altissimus]

I quite agree, @SimonDoom - but the example was chosen only for the comma. I sincerely regret choosing that one now, of course There's always a hundred ways from Sunday of constructing a sentence, and more than one right answer. I wasn't really looking for an edit - but, if you want to edit something, I have a 110k piece you could take a look at for me...?

 

[SimonDoom]

I quite agree, @SimonDoom - but the example was chosen only for the comma. I sincerely regret choosing that one now, of course There's always a hundred ways from Sunday of constructing a sentence, and more than one right answer. I wasn't really looking for an edit - but, if you want to edit something, I have a 110k piece you could take a look at for me...?

There's nothing to regret. These conversations are opportunities for everybody to think about the writing.

I'm not itching to edit anything, to tell the truth. It's all I can do to work at a snail's pace through my own stuff.

 

[Altissimus]

I'm not itching to edit anything, to tell the truth. It's all I can do to work at a snail's pace through my own stuff.

Whereas I'm not writing anything, to tell the truth. It's all I can do to keep up with the editing I currently have But that's ok; I need a break after finishing the last one.