More realistic women?

[big_cane_sugar]

As a male (straight cis allo - a dude and very nearly a bro actually) writer, I feel I'm pretty good at getting into the minds of the straight male characters I write even though they're mostly not much like me. I have written a few gay and nonbinary characters but I've never felt confident enough in my ability to write from their POV, especially in regards to sexual thoughts and feelings.... As for the ladies....

If any women would take some time to help the dudes here become better writers, I would personally appreciate that and I might not be the only one. Also, I've been trying to write more romantic stories (don't check my published output because I haven't done that here much yet) with dual or female protagonists, so I'm really feeling the limitations of my ability to do this.

Feel free to let me know anything you'd like to let me know, but I'll list a few questions here as a guide to the kinds of insight I'm trying to develop.

As a female reader of literotica, what do you wish male writers got right more often? Have you ever read a story by an author who seemed to be a man but yet really understood the female characters "from the inside" (ahem), and if so, what made it feel like that?

Do you have any advice for a guy who'd like to realistically portray women (bearing in mind the diversity among women) dealing with desire, love, jealousy, uncertainty and mixed feelings, fear of vulnerability (emotional as well as physical), overcoming past bad experiences, toxic men vs weak men, men struggling to deal with their own issues, the imperfections of the men in their lives, feelings of being disrespected vs truly respected and cared for, happiness or unhappiness with power dynamics, wanting to feel pampered, wanting to be taken, just plain needing pay the bills or wanting more security and the attractions of luxury, dealing with men who lack confidence or have too much confidence, men who are too aggressive or aren't aggressive enough, desires for children, want to settle down vs just wanting to have fun vs I need this man tonight, etc....

What does it feel like (for example, physically) to receive a thoughtful gift from a man? What does it feel like to realize that a relationship you've invested in might be turning out to have been a mistake? What does it feel like to be insecure about something but then realize a man likes it - or to find out that a man you like doesn't like it? What are the red flags that tell you a guy might get pushier than you want him to vs the signs that this is a guy you can trust? What does aging feel like -- from the twenties to the thirties... to the late thirties.... What makes you think a guy might be lying.... What makes you feel like "I'll settle for this guy" vs "I will do anything it takes if I have a chance to seduce this man..."

Also, if you want to recommend some reading that might help me, I would appreciate that too!

Thank you sincerely to anyone who takes time out of your own life to help me try to become a better writer.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Hi,

First of all, this seems like a sincere inquiry. But you should be aware of the legacy of such questions here, which often seem a prelude to sexy fun chat time. You may get some push back from people who are very wary about such inquiries (I’m kinda wary too).

I’ll offer you some sincere advice:

1. We are the same species
2. We are both from Earth, neither gender is from Venus or Mars
3. You know women in your life; family members, colleagues, girlfriends, spouses - God help us some guys even have platonic friendships with women. Use that resource to write
4. Failing that, look up some female authors here - see what they write and how - I’d suggest @onehitwanda and @MelissaBaby as good starting points

Please be aware that not many women are going to want to run a personal seminar on the XX experience. Why would they?

Your two best friends are empathy and imagination.

Good luck!

Emily

 

[big_cane_sugar]

I'm finding some links now for any other guys who might have similar interests:

Women of Authors' Hangout... And men...

How do you write from an opposite gender perspective?

 

[joy_of_cooking]

I've been told I write women well. Actually, I've been accused (edit: non-native speaker typing fast got the connotations wrong. "suspected"? "asked"?) of secretly being a woman pretending to be a man.

I read a few women's subreddits, r/twoxchromosomes r/witchesvspatriarchy r/breakingmom r/femdomcommunity (note the last one is bdsm-oriented). It's pretty repetitive, honestly. If you sort by top over all time and scroll through a few pages, you'll see the themes pretty quickly, at least well enough to fake it for a few thousand words.

I also try to work out their motivations, whether that's "I want to do something nice for my husband on his birthday" or "I want to be employed but not raped" or "I'd rather people think I'm a stuck-up bitch than know I'm disfigured"

And when possible I get someone else who writes plausible women to beta-read my stories. This doesn't have to be a woman, and a lot of women have good reason to not identify themselves as such on the internet.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I've been told I write women well. Actually, I've been accused of secretly being a woman pretending to be a man.

Wanna form a club? We could have membership cards printed and a secret handshake. Maybe baseball caps. We could call ourselves The Unreasonably Misgendered Club.

Emily (aka Bubba aka whatever your heart desires)

 

[ElectricBlue]

Thank you sincerely to anyone who takes time out of your own life to help me try to become a better writer.

Do you know any women? Write about them.

Your post has prompted me to do a little experiment. I'm going to remove my gender from my Author's Profile, to see if that changes the reception my stories get.

I'll report back in a year.

 

[Omenainen]

Keep an eye out for Pink Orchid event in the beginning of next year, you just missed this round. The final list will come out on Friday if you want to read women-centric erotica.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Reading stories written by, for, and about women is an obvious starting point but one that a lot of folk still miss. Not that every female author is good, but you'll get some different perspectives.

Agency. There's no universal "what women want", but every woman wants something. There are a lot of stories out there where the female characters are strong, smart, brave, yada yada, and yet somehow they're never ever driving the plot; their role always ends up being reacting to a guy's pursuit of his wants. In erotica, one often gets the feeling "this woman is here because the writer needed somebody for the male protag to get it on with".

 

[SimonDoom]

I think it's a fair question, but I also think that people overthink this sort of thing. I've been writing stories from the point of view of women for seven years, and I cannot recall ever once receiving the criticism that I didn't know how to write from a woman's point of view. Keep an open mind, be observant, and use your imagination, and you'll be fine. Find examples of stories written from the point of view of women characters, pay close attention, and figure out what you like about those stories. Use them as examples.

 

[Djmac1031]

Hey, welcome to the forum.

I'll just echo my friend @EmilyMiller (she so loves when I come in after her to say the same exact thing she just said) by saying remember your female characters are human beings, and write them as people, not just sex objects in your stories.

There are differences sure, but many of the things you listed? Men deal with that stuff too. And not as differently as you'd think on some of it.

 

[mildlyaroused]

I agree that, frankly, this issue lends itself to overthinking (for writers of both sexes).

If you are emotionally thoughtful then you shouldn't have too much trouble with the mental and character side of women. Yes, there are differences between men and women, but there are also differences between every woman and every man. Every person is unique, and every character you write is a construct of fiction regardless of their sex.

Though the intentions are noble, I think trying to write a specifically female (or male) character can be a bit of a trap. You might end up overcompensating and writing yourself a caricature - a conglomerate of supposedly feminine traits and reactions. We are all human.

There are obviously stories where a character's sex is important, if you're touching on more serious, thoughtful, or societal subject matter. Virginia Woolf writes about women, not men. If you want to do that, read widely and hungrily, and always write with empathy.

Physically, things are different - more different than emotionally in my opinion. There are plenty of stories on Lit which describe women's sexuality from an obviously-male POV. I'd recommend looking through other forums and sites, finding out how different women describe different sensations or experiences.

 

[OffNSFW]

I'm a cis guy, though I am bi and have some gender-bendy inclinations, but... look. You have more in common with women in general than you have with any specific individual person. Use what you know from listening to the experiences of friends, family, people you admire, etc., and apply the same writer's invention that you would use for any other character. Hell, you might even find yourself writing from the feminine side of your own perspective.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

What makes you feel like "I'll settle for this guy" vs "I will do anything it takes if I have a chance to seduce this man..."

For me, it's more multidimensional that that. What about, "I can't say no to this sexy man seducing me." This element is almost non-existent on lit. There are endless porn fantasy unicorn female characters out there that are paper thin and that I personally find impossible or not worth relating to, but the male characters are even worse. They're just guys getting some. Give me a reason for that girl to be turned on by that guy - and hopefully it's not just some physical fetish like big cock or 50+ or (ex-)military. Give the guy some game, or at least some skills. James Bond or Robin Hood for an extreme, but even subtle stuff. Can he play the piano, polish a dance floor, fix a car, teach a poetry class, get big air on his snowboard, handle a sword or bow and arrow (fantasy) brawl and shoot guns (action) or calibrate the disintegrator beam (sci-fi)? At the very least can he be exceedingly charming and attentive enough to read her cues?

their role always ends up being reacting to a guy's pursuit of his wants. In erotica, one often gets the feeling "this woman is here because the writer needed somebody for the male protag to get it on with".

Bramble is seeing the same thing. The girl's motivation is simply to give this guy an incredible blowjob. Why? Because he wants one and she likes giving them. This is boring. She could use her skills on anyone. Why him? We see it often, requests for a sexually confident woman who knows what she wants and will go out and get it. Well, give us a male character worth getting. She can have anyone. She could go after Guy Pierce or that Tom Brady guy. Why would she waste time on this faceless gameless putz?

At the other end you have the flawed girl. She has insecurities and vulnerabilities. When the sexy man comes onto her things get very emotional in a hurry and when the vulnerable girl opens up and gives herself, the intimacy levels can go through the roof.

Emotions are important, and emotions don't necessarily need to be lovey-dovey. Simple hot intimacy is very emotional. Writing is essentially conveying emotions through the words on the page. When the reader feels those emotions, the connection is made. If you don't have this then it's just meh porn.

 

[StillStunned]

What about, "I can't say no to this sexy man seducing me."

From one of my recent stories:

Rosa hissed in my ear. "His eyes are almost inside your blouse. He's all yours, mami. I told you so!"

She had, and I hadn't believed her. Yet here we were, this gorgeous, confident young man who could have smiled and had a million women, and me, a middle-aged woman who hadn't had sex in almost a year.

That was going to change. In that moment I decided I was going to fuck Roberto. There in the walled garden, just like Rosa had.

 

[AchtungNight]

In a popular film, a character played by Jack Nicholson was asked how he wrote women so well. He said, “I think of a man, but I take away all reason and accountability.” A lot of people laughed at this answer, including some women I know. Others, many of whom were also women, called Jack’s character misogynistic, idiotic, and other negative adjectives.

There is no one perfect way to write women. Or men, for that matter. If someone tells you otherwise, they more than likely have an agenda. And it is up to you whether or not you want to follow their advice. Me, I’ve never had a reviewer other than myself call me out on not writing men or women properly. So until that happens- and maybe even then- I’ve chosen to trust my own imagination and write what I think best. And if it does happen I will consider the source of the review and its content before I change my stories to support anyone else’s opinions.

 

[big_cane_sugar]

I’ll offer you some sincere advice:

1. We are the same species
2. We are both from Earth, neither gender is from Venus or Mars
3. You know women in your life; family members, colleagues, girlfriends, spouses - God help us some guys even have platonic friendships with women. Use that resource to write
4. Failing that, look up some female authors here - see what they write and how - I’d suggest @onehitwanda and @MelissaBaby as good starting points

Please be aware that not many women are going to want to run a personal seminar on the XX experience. Why would they?

Your two best friends are empathy and imagination.

Thank you! I did not realize the history of these inquiries here....

 

[big_cane_sugar]

For me, it's more multidimensional that that. What about, "I can't say no to this sexy man seducing me." This element is almost non-existent on lit. There are endless porn fantasy unicorn female characters out there that are paper thin and that I personally find impossible or not worth relating to, but the male characters are even worse. They're just guys getting some. Give me a reason for that girl to be turned on by that guy - and hopefully it's not just some physical fetish like big cock or 50+ or (ex-)military. Give the guy some game, or at least some skills. James Bond or Robin Hood for an extreme, but even subtle stuff. Can he play the piano, polish a dance floor, fix a car, teach a poetry class, get big air on his snowboard, handle a sword or bow and arrow (fantasy) brawl and shoot guns (action) or calibrate the disintegrator beam (sci-fi)? At the very least can he be exceedingly charming and attentive enough to read her cues?



Bramble is seeing the same thing. The girl's motivation is simply to give this guy an incredible blowjob. Why? Because he wants one and she likes giving them. This is boring. She could use her skills on anyone. Why him? We see it often, requests for a sexually confident woman who knows what she wants and will go out and get it. Well, give us a male character worth getting. She can have anyone. She could go after Guy Pierce or that Tom Brady guy. Why would she waste time on this faceless gameless putz?

At the other end you have the flawed girl. She has insecurities and vulnerabilities. When the sexy man comes onto her things get very emotional in a hurry and when the vulnerable girl opens up and gives herself, the intimacy levels can go through the roof.

Emotions are important, and emotions don't necessarily need to be lovey-dovey. Simple hot intimacy is very emotional. Writing is essentially conveying emotions through the words on the page. When the reader feels those emotions, the connection is made. If you don't have this then it's just meh porn.

Thank you for this! I will definitely think about this...

 

[lovecraft68]

@EmilyMiller already said this, but I'll add women do think somewhat differently than a man, but they're not aliens. I said this about someone recently posting whether or not their black character was accurate.

People are people. We all know people in our lives, and our characters are people in our stories. If you have female family members, friends, co-workers, then you know women and should be able to create one in a story. As for the sexy/intimate parts? I'll assume you have had sex with women, and experienced both romantic and a raunchy good time. If you have, then you have everything you need to know, so call upon your experience. I

That, and they're your characters and your stories so they can act however you want them to. Everything is subjective here, so 'accuracy' might be overrated. Only once did I ever get a comment that specifically said "No woman would say that." Ironically, the line in question was something my-at the time-25 year old daughter said all the time.

Do your best and you get better with practice. I write a ton of female POV, is it convincing? I feel hit or miss, but the readers seem to enjoy it.

Going to add to another thing Emilly said, we get a lot of pervs here looking for a cheap way to talk about sex in PMs. You're post is more thoughtful than most, but some will still be suspicious. I can't imagine being a woman on here.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I think it's a fair question, but I also think that people overthink this sort of thing. I've been writing stories from the point of view of women for seven years, and I cannot recall ever once receiving the criticism that I didn't know how to write from a woman's point of view. Keep an open mind, be observant, and use your imagination, and you'll be fine. Find examples of stories written from the point of view of women characters, pay close attention, and figure out what you like about those stories. Use them as examples.

Same with me and a male POV. Sure some have commented that my MMCs are too in touch with their feelings. But I think that’s mostly a generational thing and not a major critique.

Emily

 

[SimonDoom]

Same with me and a male POV. Sure some have commented that my MMCs are too in touch with their feelings. But I think that’s mostly a generational thing and not a major critique.

Emily

You raise an interesting issue: I think the generation gap presents as much a challenge as gender difference. Many of my story characters are much younger than I am--some of them about 40 years younger. They've grown up in a significantly different world with different expectations, cultural norms, music, patterns of speech, etc. I keenly notice when young women speak with "vocal fry," and my guess is that nearly all the women who do it wouldn't even know what I was talking about if I mentioned it. I approach generational differences in much the same way I do gender differences: with a somewhat light touch. I keep cultural references fairly minimal, just enough so I hope the reader will see a young character as being young. Of course, if my readership is over 40 they won't care. I think one can take the same approach as a man drawing a woman character.

 

[EmilyMiller]

You raise an interesting issue: I think the generation gap presents as much a challenge as gender difference. Many of my story characters are much younger than I am--some of them about 40 years younger. They've grown up in a significantly different world with different expectations, cultural norms, music, patterns of speech, etc. I keenly notice when young women speak with "vocal fry," and my guess is that nearly all the women who do it wouldn't even know what I was talking about if I mentioned it. I approach generational differences in much the same way I do gender differences: with a somewhat light touch. I keep cultural references fairly minimal, just enough so I hope the reader will see a young character as being young. Of course, if my readership is over 40 they won't care. I think one can take the same approach as a man drawing a woman character.

I think I often have my characters - male or female - just talk like I do. Or lightly changed versions.

Emily

 

[VerbalAbuse]

Supposedly the testosterone levels are plummeting! Yay! Soon there'll be just one gender.

Generational decline in testosterone levels

 

[VerbalAbuse]

But I think that’s mostly a generational thing and not a major critique.

Emily

You're Not The Man Your Father Was

So, yeah, it's a major critique, depending on how old is the one that pops it.

 

[SimonDoom]

I think I often have my characters - male or female - just talk like I do. Or lightly changed versions.

Emily

I definitely do this, but I don't know if it enhances realism or not. If I draw a young man character I imagine myself as a young man and add a few twists here and there. I don't know how realistic it seems. I never went through a wild, angry phase as a young person. I never acted that much like the stereotypical teenager.

When I create a female character I try to imagine how I would act as a woman, minus the "My God, I have breasts!" reaction.

 

[intim8]

I've seen several men say, "I've never been told I write women the wrong way". But is that the kind of thing likely to be commented on, unless it is over the top ridiculous?

I'm wondering, because I am in the same boat. I have a few stories up here from a female POV, and have never been told I got it wrong, but I don't take that to mean I'm not getting it wrong.