How annoying is first-person present tense?

[MillieDynamite]

Yeah, this is the wrong thread, but I've got a massive headache, and that's affecting everything. Or is it effecting?

 

[SimonDoom]

My general attitude about tense and point of view is that if it's done skillfully, without mistakes, then I can immerse myself in it and forget the mechanics enough to enjoy it, whatever it is. The problem with offbeat tense and POV choices is that too often authors don't handle it skillfully and make mistakes, and those are jarring and throw the reader out of the story. That's why I generally recommend writing in past tense rather than present tense, because writing in present tense is more likely to lead to mistakes.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Sometimes, in the first or second person, a slip of tense isn't jarring when you are writing in the past. But in the present tense, it knocks you out of the story, hard and fast. And as long as the whole line is messed up in tense, the grammar checker doesn't see that the tense doesn't match the rest of the story.

My general attitude about tense and point of view is that if it's done skillfully, without mistakes, then I can immerse myself in it and forget the mechanics enough to enjoy it, whatever it is. The problem with offbeat tense and POV choices is that too often authors don't handle it skillfully and make mistakes, and those are jarring and throw the reader out of the story. That's why I generally recommend writing in past tense rather than present tense, because writing in present tense is more likely to lead to mistakes.

 

[Bramblethorn]

The difference between an autobiography and a biography is exactly the difference between first person and third person. If you write an autobiography in the third person, it's weird, and if you write a biography in the first person, it's even weirder.

Not really, no. Many celebrity "autobiographies" are in fact biographies written in first person by a ghost writer who isn't the celeb.

In any event, most of the stories on this site couldn't reasonably be considered "biography" of any kind, so it's not clear why the conventions of auto/biography should be assumed to apply.

I didn't agree with most of the rest of it either, but it wasn't as jarring as: "I was able to easily squeeze what I wanted out of the machine with a 200-word prompt."

If you're still mad about that discussion to the extent where you feel you need to resurrect it in a completely unrelated conversation, that seems like a you problem.

If you think 200 words of reusable boilerplate is a large amount of effort, you probably ought to find a different hobby.

 

[StillStunned]

It's not as annoying as second person POV future perfect tense.

"You will have lusted after her for months by the time you will have finally taken her back to your house. She will have worn her shortest dress, and you will have spent the entire night on your date admiring her legs and wondering when you will have the first opportunity to peel the dress off her lithe body. 'Finally,' you will have thought, 'I have what I want.'"

Off the top of my head, here's my take on 2P future perfect. Interesting exercise, but I don't think there's enough for a story.

===

Now's the time. It's now or never. It's what you want, so why are you so afraid to ask? You know the two of you are perfect together. All you have to do is ask, and she'll say yes. She has to. Take a deep breath, steady that pounding heartbeat.

Take her hand. Smile at her. She can't say no. She won't.

But there's something in her eyes, isn't there? She knows you're about to ask, and she's afraid. Afraid that she'll have to answer. Afraid about who her answer will hurt.

Because she sees further than you. All you see is the here and now. Taking her in your arms and possessing her. Claiming her for your own and wanting that moment to last forever.

But she sees further. She sees the future, when you've hurt her. When you've screwed up. When you've done what you always do.

She sees the time when she's crying. You'll have let her down. You'll have been selfish, thoughtless, negligent of her feelings. You'll have forgotten that she's the most important person in your life. You'll have given the attention that she deserves to your friends, to other women. You'll have left her feeling ignored and unloved.

That's what she sees. Because she knows you. You're fun for now, but not for the future. And she'll never say yes.

So don't ask. Save yourself the embarrassment. Save her the pain. Don't ask. Have another drink and pretend you never meant to ask.

 

[lavendersilk]

Off the top of my head, here's my take on 2P future perfect. Interesting exercise, but I don't think there's enough for a story.

===

Now's the time. It's now or never. It's what you want, so why are you so afraid to ask? You know the two of you are perfect together. All you have to do is ask, and she'll say yes. She has to. Take a deep breath, steady that pounding heartbeat.

Take her hand. Smile at her. She can't say no. She won't.

But there's something in her eyes, isn't there? She knows you're about to ask, and she's afraid. Afraid that she'll have to answer. Afraid about who her answer will hurt.

Because she sees further than you. All you see is the here and now. Taking her in your arms and possessing her. Claiming her for your own and wanting that moment to last forever.

But she sees further. She sees the future, when you've hurt her. When you've screwed up. When you've done what you always do.

She sees the time when she's crying. You'll have let her down. You'll have been selfish, thoughtless, negligent of her feelings. You'll have forgotten that she's the most important person in your life. You'll have given the attention that she deserves to your friends, to other women. You'll have left her feeling ignored and unloved.

That's what she sees. Because she knows you. You're fun for now, but not for the future. And she'll never say yes.

So don't ask. Save yourself the embarrassment. Save her the pain. Don't ask. Have another drink and pretend you never meant to ask.

I really like this. Good job.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

https://literotica.com/s/the-devil-you-know-4

I thought it was a fun experiment, but I wouldn't make a habit of it.

 

[KeithD]

Take her hand. Smile at her. She can't say no. She won't.

Nope, not second person. There's a narrator here giving directions from the narrator's perspective--first person.

Second person would be "You take her hand. You smile at her. She can't say no. She won't."

 

[samhasstories]

Nope, not second person. There's a narrator here giving directions from the narrator's perspective--first person.

Second person would be "You take her hand. You smile at her. She can't say no. She won't."

I don't think I agree. By the same logic there is no such thing as third person narration, it's just first person narration from a narrator who happens never to refer to themselves. Just like with third person, second person includes an implied narrator, just one addressing the POV character rather than referring to them at a remove.

 

[KeithD]

I don't think I agree. By the same logic there is no such thing as third person narration, it's just first person narration from a narrator who happens never to refer to themselves. Just like with third person, second person includes an implied narrator, just one addressing the POV character rather than referring to them at a remove.

It doesn't matter if you agree or not. The passage I cited is a narrator giving direction from the narrator's perspective, not from the perspective of the "you." Not second person.

 

[lavendersilk]

Nope, not second person. There's a narrator here giving directions from the narrator's perspective--first person.

Second person would be "You take her hand. You smile at her. She can't say no. She won't."

What about the future tense? "You will take her hand. You will smile at her...

 

[MillieDynamite]

The third person story can move point of view through several different characters. It can be omniscient and break from the main story to tell you about a butterfly on the other side of the world or about a character you haven't seen yet. First person cannot do that.

 

[MillieDynamite]

I'd call that a structure to avoid at all costs.

What about the future tense? "You will take her hand. You will smile at her...

 

[KeithD]

What about the future tense? "You will take her hand. You will smile at her...

Sure, that much is in second person (although it's close to the edge of the "you" taking direction by someone else, depending on the greater context.)

 

[StillStunned]

It doesn't matter if you agree or not. The passage I cited is a narrator giving direction from the narrator's perspective, not from the perspective of the "you." Not second person.

Hmm. In the example that you give:

"You take her hand. You smile at her. She can't say no. She won't."

it's the same narrator, describing the action. So by your reasoning you can never to 2P, because there's always a narrator.

In my snippet, the narrator *is* the "you". It's an internal thought process. There's no "I", so it can't be 1P.

 

[SimonDoom]

Off the top of my head, here's my take on 2P future perfect. Interesting exercise, but I don't think there's enough for a story.

===

Now's the time. It's now or never. It's what you want, so why are you so afraid to ask? You know the two of you are perfect together. All you have to do is ask, and she'll say yes. She has to. Take a deep breath, steady that pounding heartbeat.

Take her hand. Smile at her. She can't say no. She won't.

But there's something in her eyes, isn't there? She knows you're about to ask, and she's afraid. Afraid that she'll have to answer. Afraid about who her answer will hurt.

Because she sees further than you. All you see is the here and now. Taking her in your arms and possessing her. Claiming her for your own and wanting that moment to last forever.

But she sees further. She sees the future, when you've hurt her. When you've screwed up. When you've done what you always do.

She sees the time when she's crying. You'll have let her down. You'll have been selfish, thoughtless, negligent of her feelings. You'll have forgotten that she's the most important person in your life. You'll have given the attention that she deserves to your friends, to other women. You'll have left her feeling ignored and unloved.

That's what she sees. Because she knows you. You're fun for now, but not for the future. And she'll never say yes.

So don't ask. Save yourself the embarrassment. Save her the pain. Don't ask. Have another drink and pretend you never meant to ask.

This is 2d person POV, present tense.

 

[samhasstories]

It doesn't matter if you agree or not.

Okay, cool, thanks.

The passage I cited is a narrator giving direction from the narrator's perspective, not from the perspective of the "you." Not second person.

Yes, there's a narrator. A narrator referring to the point of view character as "you." The existence of a narrator does not disqualify it from being second person narration.

 

[KeithD]

it's the same narrator, describing the action.

Nevertheless the action is from the perspective of the "you." Thus, second person.

Everything written everywhere in the story is really from the perspective of the author. That's not relevant to voice and tense in a story.

 

[StillStunned]

This is 2d person POV, present tense.

It needed some framing, but here's where the future perfect comes in:

But she sees further. She sees the future, when you've hurt her. When you've screwed up. When you've done what you always do.

She sees the time when she's crying. You'll have let her down. You'll have been selfish, thoughtless, negligent of her feelings. You'll have forgotten that she's the most important person in your life. You'll have given the attention that she deserves to your friends, to other women. You'll have left her feeling ignored and unloved.

 

[SimonDoom]

It needed some framing, but here's where the future perfect comes in:

Yes, but that's not the dominant tense in the passage. The dominant tense is in the present. The fact that you contemplate the future doesn't make the dominant tense future perfect.

 

[KeithD]

Okay, cool, thanks.


Yes, there's a narrator. A narrator referring to the point of view character as "you." The existence of a narrator does not disqualify it from being second person narration.

As I said, everything written everywhere is from the perspective of the author. That's irrelevant to this voice/tense issue. I didn't say identifying second person (or not) was easy. But if you look at it and think "whose perspective is this action from?" and ignore that everything written everywhere is actually from the author's perspective, you can figure it out.

The problem with second person is that it can get so convoluted and tedious that it ruins the read.

 

[StillStunned]

Yes, but that's not the dominant tense in the passage. The dominant tense is in the present. The fact that you contemplate the future doesn't make the dominant tense future perfect.

If I'd been writing a full story, specifically to use the future perfect, that section obviously would be expanded. That's where the meat of the story is: you can write a complete love story, about how the relationship falls apart. But since this was just an intellectual writing exercise to see what it would look like, I wasn't going to spend more time than I needed.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Off the top of my head, here's my take on 2P future perfect. Interesting exercise, but I don't think there's enough for a story.

That's weird, but I don't think it's second person. The emphasis appears to be on "she" as much as it is on "you", so it's not being directed inside "your" head. The narrator reads like an independent entity, so it's third person, surely? Pre-empting the future also makes it omniscient, since "you" can't do that. Whatever it is, it's so convoluted as to be unreadable.

 

[StillStunned]

But if you look at it and think "whose perspective is this action from?" and ignore that everything written everywhere is actually from the author's perspective, you can figure it out.

And that's precisely what I did. How could my snippet ever be from anyone's perspective but the "you"? Or do you think there's an outside person giving instructions? It's more 2P than a narrator saying "you do this, you do that." Those are actions that can be seen and described from an external perspective.

It's not difficult, it's not convoluted. It simply puts the reader in the "you" figure's place in the moment. And that's 2P.

 

[SimonDoom]

It doesn't matter if you agree or not. The passage I cited is a narrator giving direction from the narrator's perspective, not from the perspective of the "you." Not second person.

I see what you are saying, but it's not as clear as that, because, since "I" never makes its appearance, it's not clear that the "directions" are coming from an "I" narrator separate and apart from the "you" character. The "you" character could be giving instructions to himself. I think that's a plausible interpretation of the passage as written. I would describe it as second person POV unless the "I" narrator somewhere, to at least some degree, makes a clear appearance.