God

[VaticanAssassin]

People who just say things like they just shit out immutable laws of the universe carved into marble need to understand that that girl at Starbucks is just there for coffee, not you.

She may be there for coffee, but when I walk in her priorities change. Of course god has nothing to do with that........

Whether you peg yourself to the round hole or the square one, you still are putting yourself in a hole.

 

[CHNOPS]

JIZZ.​

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

She may be there for coffee, but when I walk in her priorities change. Of course god has nothing to do with that........

Whether you peg yourself to the round hole or the square one, you still are putting yourself in a hole.

Yeah. I'm not. Just like the man you met this morning who had to tell you eleven times that he doesn't give a shit what your astrologer told you he's not taking you traveling over water.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

JIZZ.​

Fuck. You are just the best at Words With Friends. Okay, I'll play...

QI.​

 

[Joeybagadonuts]

JIZZ.​

Judaism has failed you. Come to Jesus, son.

 

[Tryharder62]

I don't have to. You really should. Or you should stop talking as if it's a given he does exist, because it's douchey.



You have to stop owning the word "believe" as if it only applies to religious "belief", or the acceptance of something without evidence. "Believing in something" can also mean confidence in something. Conviction. Philosophical comfort and direction. I have all of that. And spirituality. And everything a theist has. I have ritual, and celebration. I have moral and joy and ethics. I have access to transformative and transcendent experiences. These are human attributes. They are Darwinian. They are not owned by those who also choose to believe, irrationally, in a Sky King. I have everything you have, without the debilitating and desultory effects inflicted upon your heart, mind and soul by nonsensical magical thinking. I believe in all kinds of things. Rational things. Emotional things. Human things. You believe in all those things, too, which connects us. You don't need Magic Man.

Your point is well taken about the word belief. I had a misconception about atheists that they believed in nothing. I would like to know how you express your spirituality? I simply choose not to agree with you that believing in God has debilitating and desultory effects on my heart, mind, and soul. I can accept that if you want to talk about yourself, but I think you make major assumptions to broadly say that about everyone.

 

[parodyluvr75]

What do you call the planet where Curiosity landed? Or the day after Wednesday? Or the bad guy in "The Avengers"?

Culture, baby.

Culture? Or programming?

Raptured in a moment, we don't over-think.

Go back to our core, our base thoughts...unless maybe, there are no atheists during mind blowing sex?

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Your point is well taken about the word belief. I had a misconception about atheists that they believed in nothing. I would like to know how you express your spirituality? I simply choose not to agree with you that believing in God has debilitating and desultory effects on my heart, mind, and soul. I can accept that if you want to talk about yourself, but I think you make major assumptions to broadly say that about everyone.

Atheist does not describe all I am. It's not an "ism". I explained this above. There is not set laundry list of things an atheist "believes". An atheist believes in all kinds of things, but each one is different. The ONLY thing that connects them is their response to theism. They don't have it. "A" in Latin means "without". We are "Without Theism". We don't "believe in" theism. But that's it. That's all atheism is. If you want to know what each and every atheist "believes in", you have to ask them. One at a time. Because "Atheism" is not an "ism" defined by "Things we all believe". Do you understand?

As for how I express spirituality -- exactly the same way you do (minus the bent knees and whispered exhortations to invisible people). Creating and appreciating art. Taking and giving love. Defining and refining my ethical and moral precepts. Witnessing the lives of others and allowing them to witness mine. Recognize that I have an affect on this world past my lifetime, and living my life with that knowledge. Etc. No different from you. The great mistake is in assuming that all of this activity and reflection is somehow owned by religion. It isn't.

And let me be clear that these are not the aspects of religion that I feel carve away at a man's heart, body and soul. It's the acceptance of irrationality as a guiding principle. It's the concept of religious faith, not religion itself, that is debilitating. All the joy you get out of your spirituality and the good works you do in your church are all available to me, too. These things are not "religious" or even "Godly". They're simply human. No, what I'm referring to is supporting a political candidate who wants to end Federal funding for stem cell research because your priests have told you that your God, and invisible giant person no one has ever seen, and for who's existence you are unable to present any credible evidence, of any kind, forbids the destruction of all life, even potential human life 12 cells thick. So a cure for Alzheimers is delayed for decades because of an irrational conviction that a magic giant will get angry. And you don't see this as "irrational" because you're so used to it as "normal". It's this warping of what is rational that is debilitating. And we're not even talking about people who murder and torture in the name of God. It's the assumption and the conviction that religious faith, irrational thought, is some kind of virtue that is debilitating. Not the lovely food drives your Church participates in. Not the calm you feel while praying. Not the love and community you've experienced as you've grown up amongst the faithful. None of that is specifically "religious", so it doesn't enter in our discussion. It's the harmful, sometimes even deadly, consequences brought about by actions undertaken for utterly irrational reasons.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Culture? Or programming?

Raptured in a moment, we don't over-think.

Go back to our core, our base thoughts...unless maybe, there are no atheists during mind blowing sex?

Religious (specifically Christian and Jewish, but also pagan, Nordic, and more) references appear in our culture and language more than anything else. Shakespeare comes second. But the Bible is first. It inhabits our sciences, our law, our art -- everything. Which is why I support Bible study (as literature) in public schools. If you don't know who Adam, Moses and Jesus are, or what the Seventh Seal or Calvary refer to, or understand an allusion to giant killing or walking on water, then your life in the Western World will be smaller, and sadder.

Culture. Not programming.

 

[Tryharder62]

Atheist does not describe all I am. It's not an "ism". I explained this above. There is not set laundry list of things an atheist "believes". An atheist believes in all kinds of things, but each one is different. The ONLY thing that connects them is their response to theism. They don't have it. "A" in Latin means "without". We are "Without Theism". We don't "believe in" theism. But that's it. That's all atheism is. If you want to know what each and every atheist "believes in", you have to ask them. One at a time. Because "Atheism" is not an "ism" defined by "Things we all believe". Do you understand?

As for how I express spirituality -- exactly the same way you do (minus the bent knees and whispered exhortations to invisible people). Creating and appreciating art. Taking and giving love. Defining and refining my ethical and moral precepts. Witnessing the lives of others and allowing them to witness mine. Recognize that I have an affect on this world past my lifetime, and living my life with that knowledge. Etc. No different from you. The great mistake is in assuming that all of this activity and reflection is somehow owned by religion. It isn't.

And let me be clear that these are not the aspects of religion that I feel carve away at a man's heart, body and soul. It's the acceptance of irrationality as a guiding principle. It's the concept of religious faith, not religion itself, that is debilitating. All the joy you get out of your spirituality and the good works you do in your church are all available to me, too. These things are not "religious" or even "Godly". They're simply human. No, what I'm referring to is supporting a political candidate who wants to end Federal funding for stem cell research because your priests have told you that your God, and invisible giant person no one has ever seen, and for who's existence you are unable to present any credible evidence, of any kind, forbids the destruction of all life, even potential human life 12 cells thick. So a cure for Alzheimers is delayed for decades because of an irrational conviction that a magic giant will get angry. And you don't see this as "irrational" because you're so used to it as "normal". It's this warping of what is rational that is debilitating. And we're not even talking about people who murder and torture in the name of God. It's the assumption and the conviction that religious faith, irrational thought, is some kind of virtue that is debilitating. Not the lovely food drives your Church participates in. Not the calm you feel while praying. Not the love and community you've experienced as you've grown up amongst the faithful. None of that is specifically "religious", so it doesn't enter in our discussion. It's the harmful, sometimes even deadly, consequences brought about by actions undertaken for utterly irrational reasons.

I don't believe all the actions of spirituality are owned by religion. That is why I asked you, one atheist, how you expressed yours. When you, one atheist, look at virtue what do you use to define it? I do not feel like I am any more virtuous than you. I actually didn't grow up among the faithful. So I know what it is to live without my belief in God. I choose to believe.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Tryharder --- since you're asking around about how I think I feel, maybe I can help you a little bit with this...

You're a Christian (I'm assuming), and, depending on your sect, you believe that a God exists and that he sent his only son, Jesus to earth, born of a virgin, to complete the laws of Moses, and then die for our sins (specifically as a sacrifice in the Jewish tradition, to cleanse away Original Sin), then to rise again and sit at the right hand of the father and welcome into Heaven (or Hell) all the souls who have ever lived and have, until 3AD, sat around waiting for the Messiah to free them from their corporeal limbo. More or less. Okay...

Now imagine another religion. Let's stay away from the other People of the Book (Jews, Muslims). Pick something less familiar. Let's say something nice, like Shinto in Japan. Shinto acolytes believe in Kami, or spirits that exist in a number of categories, some representing animals, some representing forces of nature. And these spirits live here on Earth with us, and teach us things. (It's a lot like Pokemon, come to think of it.)

We don't need to go too deeply into it. Suffice it to say that Kami are not easily dismissed by interpreting them to be Angles or some other Christian creature. In other words, Shinto's Kamis, and their other beliefs, are sufficiently different from Christianity that you can't simply say "Oh, well, we all just have different names for the same thing". (For example, their creation myth is completely different than that laid out in Genesis.)

No -- Shinto is very different. So different that I think you can honestly say that you absolutely reject their faith as being "true". It's very pretty, and you can learn things from it, and live a good life. But there are no Kami. God created the world the way the Jewish prophets explained. Sure, we can live together and be friends, but you're right about God and they're wrong about these invisible spirits. You're heard all they have to say about Shinto, but it's just not for you. Not that it isn't pretty, but you just don't believe it's true. You see no evidence for the Kami. It doesn't touch your heart and soul. Nope. Shinto is not "true". If someone were to ask you "Do you believe the magical precepts of Shinto are true", you'd probably reply "No." You don't accept this theistic system as an accurate model of the spiritual world. Towards this particular religion you are not inclined. You are "without" Shinto. You are, in a real sense, "atheistic" regarding Shinto.

Now pick something really crazy. Let's say one of the "Cargo Cults" of the Pacific Islands. During WWII many Pacific Islanders watched Japanese and American troops land on their islands, build runways, operate radios, and accept food and clothing from planes, which dropped onto their islands from the skies. When the war was over a lot of this material was left behind. The perplexed islanders created a variety or religions around these artifacts. They built their own runways and made radios out of rocks, mimicking the behavior of the Americans and Japanese. They were trying to make all the food and clothes and things come back. They assumed the Americans and Japanese were gods, or at least prophets, of some kind. As years went by entire cultures were changed and built around the events they witnessed during WWII. They were new religions, complete with ceremonies, rules for behavior, concepts of life after death, and descriptions of the places where the gods dwelt.

Okay. Well, at least with Shinto, an ancient religion, you could feel, in a small way, that there was some spirituality, or even the hand of your own God at work. But not here. Not with the Cargo Cults. Clearly, and without questions, these island natives are absofuckinglutely dead wrong about American and Japanese soldiers being gods. And their ritual building of runways in the dirt and trying to talk to spirits through rock radios are just, you know, a complete and utter waste of time. Even more than Shinto you can see that, well, it's a nice religion, but based on the unavailable proof that GI Joe is Jehova you're just going to have to say "No", I don't accept the notion that this religion is in any way "true". You are "without" Cargo Cult religions in your heart and mind. You are, in a very real sense, "atheistic" towards this particular theistic system.

Now let's pretend there are exactly one billion religions in the world. You could go through each one of them as you have with those above and come away saying, "Nope. I'm a Christian. I believe Jesus of Nazareth was the son of God. I don't believe these other faiths. I am, in a very real sense, atheistic towards all of them except my own."

So. You are atheistic towards 999,999,999 religions.

I'm just atheistic towards one more than you.

 

[Phelia]

There's no point in disagreeing with me and then writing an entire post where you agree with me. So -- We're investigatory creatures that crave evidence. We agree.

Now -- If you want to have a discussion about how we're also stupid enough to be happy with evidence that already fits our preconceived desires, that's a different topic. In other words, you agree with me that we're pattern seekers and need to know how and why things work. (That's all I said.) You took the discussion further to wonder why we're happy with nonsense like "God" as an answer. For that you have to look to the mental anguish brought about by mortality awareness, and our self-protective need to find a better answer than the one that only exacerbates our grief. "God" is better than "Death". At that point we stop looking for "proof".

But only consciously. As I pointed out above, underneath, subconsciously, we continue to need proof. Ask anyone who bought tickets to "The Passion of the Christ" to see it "as it was".

Darn! I almost hoped you'd let me get away with it. I'm glad you didn't, though. My story is that I wrote that very late at night. Do you ever have those nights where you have one very specific task that you absolutely must accomplish before going to sleep, and while said task is not too terribly difficult, something about it almost physically repels you and you simply cannot bring yourself to buckle down and Just Do It (TM), and even though you can feel your mental capacity slowly diminishing as the hours march on, and you know you should really get started on that fucking thing you have to fucking do it's suddenly more important than ever to research obscure Asian fruit varieties and type unintelligible jumbled paragraphs on the essences of human nature and religion on a message board with threads that have titles like "Jack it off all over my face baby" and then, at nearly two am you FINALLY get started on that thing you had to do and it ends up taking like no time at all and oh god why didn't I start this hours ago and you wake up the next day a mindless zombie idiot drooling into your oatmeal? Cuz I had one of those nights.

It was a nonissue and I spent three paragraphs saying nonthings about it. I think part of me realized that even before I hit post. Mea culpa.

Of course we seek proof and evidence. I don't particularly care that I wasted your time reading the ramblings of a sleepy contrarian (kidding, kidding. I'm deeply apologetic), but I regret that what I said sort of made it sound like religious people operate on some lesser evolved form of rationality. I do think religion is inherently irrational, but I know plenty of religious people who are highly intelligent and more critically rational than I am when it comes to this that aren't related to spinning teapots disguised as an old man in robes who's vaguely glowy and likes to watch you all the time, like Sting.

Since I first joined lit, you've been one of my favourite posters. You're one of the funniest people here, and maybe one of the funniest people I "know." You're incredibly smart, which is probably why you're as funny as you are, and I always enjoy reading your contributions regarding religion. Actually, they kind of turn me on sometimes and I give you a mental high five and then imagine that you're fucking me against a dinosaur in the museum of natural history while you read aloud from The Origin of Species, maybe in funny accents if we're feeling kinky.

I think what happened is that even though I pretty much agree with you, I WANTED to disagree with you because, and I mean this as a pseudo compliment, I caught a whiff of Eau De Douchebag in some of your comments in this thread. You seemed to be telling people what and how they do and should feel. I'm not trying to sound preachy or sanctimonious (it's just a natural side effect of my being better and more morally sound than you), and I'm not saying you should change how you post or water down your opinions so as not to offend delicate sensibilities. Like I said, you're hilarious. I eat it up for breakfast lunch and dinner. But something about this thread made me bristle, and if I'm bristling, and I'm one hundred percent on your side, then I can't imagine it reads very favorably to religious people, and it should, because you're right. I'm also probably reacting to a recent attempt to get involved with my local CFI branch. It was disappointing. A group of not very fun people sitting around talking about how right they were. Have you ever been? Honestly, I'd rather go to church.

That being said, I would love to have a deeper discussion on our psychological reactions to the knowledge of our mortality and how the evolution of our brains has shaped our concepts of the world and of gods and of those blacklight posters of mushrooms that university potheads are so fond of. It'd make my tail wag, but not today. I'm still sleepy.

Also I typed this on my phone (thumb cramp!) on a moving train so if this still doesn't make sense then you can just go fellate Martin Luther.

Oh and I still don't think pattern recognition is quite the same as seeking out empirical evidence, you crazy bastard. That's a whole different bawlgame. I guess I read your post as saying most people will would want proof to strengthen their faith, and I think those things are too opposite to be true (I define faith as a belief that's held despite a lack of proof. Once there's evidence, it isn't faith anymore), but with fresher eyes I read it as most people would want proof to replace their faith, and I'd say that's true, so long as it proves what they want it to Anyway, sowry for nitpicking.

You can carry on evangelizing your precious little atheist religion now. Why don't you go pray to Richard Dawkins, heathen!

 

[IndieSnob]

Tryharder --- since you're asking around about how I think I feel, maybe I can help you a little bit with this...

You're a Christian (I'm assuming), and, depending on your sect, you believe that a God exists and that he sent his only son, Jesus to earth, born of a virgin, to complete the laws of Moses, and then die for our sins (specifically as a sacrifice in the Jewish tradition, to cleanse away Original Sin), then to rise again and sit at the right hand of the father and welcome into Heaven (or Hell) all the souls who have ever lived and have, until 3AD, sat around waiting for the Messiah to free them from their corporeal limbo. More or less. Okay...

Now imagine another religion. Let's stay away from the other People of the Book (Jews, Muslims). Pick something less familiar. Let's say something nice, like Shinto in Japan. Shinto acolytes believe in Kami, or spirits that exist in a number of categories, some representing animals, some representing forces of nature. And these spirits live here on Earth with us, and teach us things. (It's a lot like Pokemon, come to think of it.)

We don't need to go too deeply into it. Suffice it to say that Kami are not easily dismissed by interpreting them to be Angles or some other Christian creature. In other words, Shinto's Kamis, and their other beliefs, are sufficiently different from Christianity that you can't simply say "Oh, well, we all just have different names for the same thing". (For example, their creation myth is completely different than that laid out in Genesis.)

No -- Shinto is very different. So different that I think you can honestly say that you absolutely reject their faith as being "true". It's very pretty, and you can learn things from it, and live a good life. But there are no Kami. God created the world the way the Jewish prophets explained. Sure, we can live together and be friends, but you're right about God and they're wrong about these invisible spirits. You're heard all they have to say about Shinto, but it's just not for you. Not that it isn't pretty, but you just don't believe it's true. You see no evidence for the Kami. It doesn't touch your heart and soul. Nope. Shinto is not "true". If someone were to ask you "Do you believe the magical precepts of Shinto are true", you'd probably reply "No." You don't accept this theistic system as an accurate model of the spiritual world. Towards this particular religion you are not inclined. You are "without" Shinto. You are, in a real sense, "atheistic" regarding Shinto.

Now pick something really crazy. Let's say one of the "Cargo Cults" of the Pacific Islands. During WWII many Pacific Islanders watched Japanese and American troops land on their islands, build runways, operate radios, and accept food and clothing from planes, which dropped onto their islands from the skies. When the war was over a lot of this material was left behind. The perplexed islanders created a variety or religions around these artifacts. They built their own runways and made radios out of rocks, mimicking the behavior of the Americans and Japanese. They were trying to make all the food and clothes and things come back. They assumed the Americans and Japanese were gods, or at least prophets, of some kind. As years went by entire cultures were changed and built around the events they witnessed during WWII. They were new religions, complete with ceremonies, rules for behavior, concepts of life after death, and descriptions of the places where the gods dwelt.

Okay. Well, at least with Shinto, an ancient religion, you could feel, in a small way, that there was some spirituality, or even the hand of your own God at work. But not here. Not with the Cargo Cults. Clearly, and without questions, these island natives are absofuckinglutely dead wrong about American and Japanese soldiers being gods. And their ritual building of runways in the dirt and trying to talk to spirits through rock radios are just, you know, a complete and utter waste of time. Even more than Shinto you can see that, well, it's a nice religion, but based on the unavailable proof that GI Joe is Jehova you're just going to have to say "No", I don't accept the notion that this religion is in any way "true". You are "without" Cargo Cult religions in your heart and mind. You are, in a very real sense, "atheistic" towards this particular theistic system.

Now let's pretend there are exactly one million religions in the world. You could go through each one of them as you have with those above and come away saying, "Nope. I'm a Christian. I believe Jesus of Nazareth was the son of God. I don't believe these other faiths. I am, in a very real sense, atheistic towards all of them except my own."

So. You are atheistic towards 999,999,999 religions.

I'm just atheistic towards one more than you.

I'm not gay, but would you fuck me anyway?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

You typed all that on your phone? Jesus Christ. You're God.

As for "telling people what to think" -- I've being taking exactly that from theists at home, in school, at work, in legislation, in art, in music, everywhere, for my entire fucking life. Every once in a while you know what's okay? A little sauce for the goose.

As for fucking you against a dinosaur --- where's your train headed? I'll meet you.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

I'm not gay, but would you fuck me anyway?

Thanks in advance.

Yes.

I'm behind the Stegasaurus.

 

[CHNOPS]

Yes.

I'm behind the Stegasaurus.

...If you know what I mean."

 

[VaticanAssassin]

JIZZ...

 

[IndieSnob]

Jizz on the theist below you.

Or on the atheist below you.

Or on the dinosaur below you.

But you get what I mean. The telos is jizz. Nothing but jizz.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

...If you know what I mean."

You bet Jurassic I do.

 

[Phelia]

You typed all that on your phone? Jesus Christ. You're God.

As for "telling people what to think" -- I've being taking exactly that from theists at home, in school, at work, in legislation, in art, in music, everywhere, for my entire fucking life. Every once in a while you know what's okay? A little sauce for the goose.

As for fucking you against a dinosaur --- where's your train headed? I'll meet you.

I am God. And yes, it was tough. It's one thing to type on your phone, but it's quite another to try and type while people are debating the nature of your existence. Lucky I've got nimble digits.

I certainly understand that. Sauce away.

Meet me at the ROM in Toronto. I keep a stash of condoms hidden in the dilophosaurus' cranial cavity. I'm gonna let you slam into me like that giant asteroid that killed all the dinosaurs.

 

[Tryharder62]

Dixon Carter Lee- Thank you for your response. It was very well put. The problem I have is with the hostility you exhibit to those who don't believe like you do. (It can be noted that you said I was douchey) I also get frustrated with people who bring up the so called "evils" Christians do like atheists have never done anything wrong. We are all human.

People like Stalin who was propagating athiesm - large numbers were persecuted and killed for practicing religion and for being interferences in the atheistic - communistic expansion. Mao Zedong whose Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution that is believed to have caused 40 to 70 million deaths. I don't take a broad stroke and say that everyone who is atheist is a mass murderer. I just wish people could judge me for who I am not because of their preconceived notions of the belief I choose to have.

 

[Oscuridad]

What does an athiest yell during earth moving sex?

"Oh non-existent super natural entity, yes?!"

His or her lover's name.

Credit where credit is due.

 

[Oscuridad]

You can carry on evangelizing your precious little atheist religion now. Why don't you go pray to Richard Dawkins, heathen!

Atheists don't pray.

And if we did... we wouldn't pray to assholes.

 

[XdOu™]

i'm like jesus, i walk on water.

 

[Oscuridad]

I've stepped in/on puddles too.