D/s with children in the house

[Amanda_T]

That tripe should come stamped with warning labels.

Yeah, I'm of the view that pop culture indoctrinates kids with unhealthy attitudes towards relationships and sex. I am very thankful that I am not the parent of a teenage girl.



I don't believe D/s, BDSM or any other form of lifestyle is wrong. Quite the opposite. I think I'd struggle on these message boards if I did.

When I use the word 'indoctrination' I'm using it as per its definition. It is distinguished from education whereby the indoctrinated person is not encouraged or expected to question what they have learnt. While you have stressed that the child in question was taught about how other relationships work I worry that the extent of what she was told may not have been age appropriate. Imposing adult ideas on children that are not mature enough to critically assess them sounds a bit like indoctrination to me.

I just can't get past educating a child on D/s politics and protocols. That is what seems inappropriate to me, and I also can't shake the feeling that things worked out that way not because of the childs questioning, but perhaps of a mothers enthusiasm at raising a like-minded daughter.

Ok, that is fair. But honestly, I don't feel, that I personally had enough information to make any kind of judgement call on that situation. Which is why I usually don't interfere and keep my opinions ot myself when it comes to a relationship between child and parent. (Unless there is some tangible harm that I see being done.)

But alternately, I knew exactly what I was by age 12. By age 12 I knew that I would live as a female slave, despite that fact that I had been born male. And that was despite the fact that I was intentionally brought to be raised in a back woods, bigoted, inbred, homophobic area and kept in the dark about absolutely everything having to do with sex, sexuality, and alternative lifestyles.

When I think back to how I was raised, and to what I know of the Lady and her daughter that we are discussing, I would have preferred that honesty. In the end, I would have made up my own mind as to who I really am, regardless of what I was taught, (As I have proven in being me,) but my journey could have been made a lot easier with a little truth.

 

[Ropebunny]

Ok, that is fair. But honestly, I don't feel, that I personally had enough information to make any kind of judgement call on that situation. Which is why I usually don't interfere and keep my opinions ot myself when it comes to a relationship between child and parent. (Unless there is some tangible harm that I see being done.)

But alternately, I knew exactly what I was by age 12. By age 12 I knew that I would live as a female slave, despite that fact that I had been born male. And that was despite the fact that I was intentionally brought to be raised in a back woods, bigoted, inbred, homophobic area and kept in the dark about absolutely everything having to do with sex, sexuality, and alternative lifestyles.

When I think back to how I was raised, and to what I know of the Lady and her daughter that we are discussing, I would have preferred that honesty. In the end, I would have made up my own mind as to who I really am, regardless of what I was taught, (As I have proven in being me,) but my journey could have been made a lot easier with a little truth.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that when it comes to sex we toe a fine line between educating and exposing and sometimes it's really fucking hard to tell if we're crossing the line.

I know what you mean about making the journey easier. I think as a group, homosexual and gender-queer parents (plus some enlightened kinky parents) understand that struggle best of all and make the most effort in making kids feel comfortable with their sexualities as they mature into adulthood. If only all parents could do this; we'd have a much more pleasant and accepting world.

 

[Amanda_T]

I guess what I'm trying to say is that when it comes to sex we toe a fine line between educating and exposing and sometimes it's really fucking hard to tell if we're crossing the line.

I know what you mean about making the journey easier. I think as a group, homosexual and gender-queer parents (plus some enlightened kinky parents) understand that struggle best of all and make the most effort in making kids feel comfortable with their sexualities as they mature into adulthood. If only all parents could do this; we'd have a much more pleasant and accepting world.

Indeed. I can agree with most of that. But consequences to things like teaching someone else one's own way of belief, of living, can't be seen easily. Not for someone in the lifestyle, or for someone in an extremely conservative belief system. The only thing, in my opinion, that can make us mostly blameless in a life where we affect others lives, is integrity and honesty. For if there is no integrity or honesty in the world, then, well, what do you trust? Who do you trust? Are you even able to trust? And if you can't trust, how then can you love?

 

[Netzach]

I'm not a parent, but I think this idea that an honest and open life and let kids make sense of all the information in front of them on their own with their own forming brains is absolutely irresponsible. A five year old is not going to be hip to the subtleties of "choice and happy" they're going to see "mom is not the final authority around here, repeatedly" and interpret that as they will. That information is going to be spun in different ways, and I'm sorry to tell everyone that a lot of those ways are not healthy.

I don't need, as a child, to trust my mother to be her authentic primal self around me. I DO need to trust that she's in my corner, more than the corner of, for example "guy she is dating." When "guy she is dating" is "Master" and her life revolves around his say-so, that's kind of a fucked up message for the itsy bitsy person who needs to believe they are the immutable center of her world because hello, children NEED their esteem built at certain points in time, that's age-apropos for small.

Do I think D/s is unhealthy? I think the dynamics of sexuality and power are so jacked in this culture that D/s is a logical and healthy response to a completely unhealthy world. I don't propose anyone not do their sexuality, I DO propose that everyone be clear-eyed about why they're into what they're into.

Fortunately, we DO get a lot of information from sources other than our families, and we're not carbon copies of our parent's fuck ups. But let's maybe try to filter the information in the world responsibly rather than abdicating that responsibility.

I knew that certain male-subservient violent imagery turned me on at an early age as well - as much as my first vanilla rel. was a wreck over the sexuality issue, I'm very glad it WAS vanilla and egalitarian. No 15 year old has any business priming herself for Domme-hood. I'm completely comfortable being chauvenistic about that because she is still more or less a child.

The question of sex yes or no is big enough.

 

[Aurelia_Malys]

I agree with you too, and I'm curious how your current relationship is seen by your teenagers compared to your relationship with their father.

Well, I haven't asked my children directly about how they feel about my current marriage compared to my marriage to their father. But I have talked to them a great deal about happiness and compatibility. When their father and I split up, I told them that I wasn't happy with him, that he was a good father and a fine man, but he and I didnt fit together in a way that could make us both truly happy. It was hard at times for them, but now that they have lived in the house with their step-father and I, they see a happier family situation than when their father and I were together. We spend time as a family, have family meals together, play games together, laugh more than I ever did in the past, and i am, in general, a happier person - which (in my opinion) also makes me a better mother.

 

[intothewoods]

Kids don't really care about your happiness. They don't want a miserable parent, of course, but that's because it will be miserable for them. I think a parent's deep personal happiness is ultimately sort of their own adult responsibility and not the kids' concern. They want to know they have stability and love. They're selfish. And really they want both of their parents together, almost no matter what, so to me it's like -- I'm sorry that we weren't compatible but here's what we have now - two happy homes and a big connected family who comes together whenever we can. And then just listen, listen, listen and, oh, if you have a boy, ask lots of open-ended questions about video games and hope they share with you.

More mature conversations are appropriate and necessary with teenagers. All I can say is that from my memories as a teen, I've never seen that whole super open, no rules, no boundaries family structure thing really work long term. The parents are always flakes and the kids grow up and feel like they have to manage their parents. I had the uptight kind of parents with rules and shit, and I definitely thought, wow, those parents who get high or walk around naked are, like, soooo cool. Now that we're all parents? Those parents are now flaky, unreliable grandparents.

 

[njlauren]

I have a question for you. Do you believe that the lifestyle, the D/s, BDSM, lifestyle, is inherently wrong?

Because honestly, the people that tend to use the word, "Indoctrination", are usually religious bigots who hate gays and believe that being gay is inherently wrong and thus gay people being allowed to marry and raise children, either adopted, or their own, would be considered "indoctrinating' them into a lifestyle that is not right.


If teaching a child the truth of life the universe and everything as you believe it, is indoctrination, then let's face it, every parent does that with every word they speak, every action they take, and every idea they discuss, either truthfully or dishonestly.

Which is why a large part of my original comment, involved teaching a child to think for themselves, to love and respect others, and to teach them that love comes in all forms, even heterosexual vanilla equality.

All I have to go on is your post and I used the term indoctrination for a reason. As a parent, it is very hard sometimes to know what is appropriate and what isn't, it is not an easy thing, and in general every parent has to decide that for themselves. It isn't that I think BD/SM is wrong, any more then I think being gay is wrong or being transgendered or a cross dresser or whatever. On the other hand, I also think kids have the right to find answers for themselves as to what they are, who they are, and I really wonder about a 15 year old girl who at that age is so fondly looking forward to being a domme. How did the girl come to that? Did her mother simply tell her she chooses to live as the dominant and her partner (male or female) as submissive, explain it, or was it 'this is the way I expect you to live' kind of thing. You are right, parents often do that with religion and other things, and to be honest, I don't particularly like that as well. Yes, parents have the right to raise their kids as they see fit, but when it comes to matters of who the kid is, I question things like that. I have seen the results of things like this, the angry mother who basically turns into a man hater because her ex husband was a bastard, and poisons her daughter with crap that all men are losers; the misogynistic father who teaches his daughters they are crap compared to men, it is the same thing, and I would be just as outspoken. We cannot protect our children totally from the outside world, there is a lot we can't control, but there are things we can control as parents, and I think that especially when matters of sexuality kids have to decide for themselves. People when I say that question about gay couples having kids, but wanna know something? Most gay couples don't go around talking about their sex lives, as most parents don't, they simply have two moms and two dads. On the other hand, if one of the moms was fingering her partners clit in front of the kids, or going down on her, I don't think that is appropriate. In the example we are talking about, I don't know what the mom did there, but if it was including the sexual aspects of domination, I am sorry, to me it is inappropriate, if she talked to the daughter about it directly, about as the poster said 'the protocols and such', that sounds like it is teaching her to be a dominant, rather then simply talking about what it means in the context generally of relationships.

Yeah, Cosmo is a crappy way to learn about sex and relationships, as are tv shows, movies, and porn. But those are outside influences, and they don't have the power a parent does in influencing the kids. Stella, you said you and your H kept your activities to the bedroom in terms of BD/SM...why? If what the mom did was okay, why did you do that? I would assume you did it because a)your sex life is none of their business and b)you felt somehow i wasn't appropriate for them to know about growing up. I have talked about a variety of things with my son, he is well aware of the varieties of relationships, about things like BD/SM (you wouldn't be all that surprised if you read about the world of music, my oh my, some kinky fuckers in that world!), and to a certain extent even describing what your own relationship is. But talking about the nuts and bolts to a 15 year old is like training them to do it, and I don't think quite frankly it is appropriate, for a number of reasons. The mom has had the right to do that, since it was her child and her household , but that doesn't mean it can't be criticized either.

 

[njlauren]

That tripe should come stamped with warning labels.

Yeah, I'm of the view that pop culture indoctrinates kids with unhealthy attitudes towards relationships and sex. I am very thankful that I am not the parent of a teenage girl.



I don't believe D/s, BDSM or any other form of lifestyle is wrong. Quite the opposite. I think I'd struggle on these message boards if I did.

When I use the word 'indoctrination' I'm using it as per its definition. It is distinguished from education whereby the indoctrinated person is not encouraged or expected to question what they have learnt. While you have stressed that the child in question was taught about how other relationships work I worry that the extent of what she was told may not have been age appropriate. Imposing adult ideas on children that are not mature enough to critically assess them sounds a bit like indoctrination to me.

I just can't get past educating a child on D/s politics and protocols. That is what seems inappropriate to me, and I also can't shake the feeling that things worked out that way not because of the childs questioning, but perhaps of a mothers enthusiasm at raising a like-minded daughter.

Bingo, rope bunny, thank you, you hit the ball out of the park, there is a difference between education and age inappropriate talk and yes, training. I would object the same way if a gay dad taught his 13 year old son what the old flagging codes meant or talked about all the varieties of sex a gay man might do, it is inappropriate. Saying that two men can be together and yes, have sex, is fine, but the details? Should a mother take her daughter when she reaches puberty and teach her about proper technique to suck a dick or eat out a pussy? To me, getting into protocols, talking about the nuts and bolts of dominant relationships, is the same thing, way way too much information.

 

[Netzach]

Kids don't really care about your happiness. They don't want a miserable parent, of course, but that's because it will be miserable for them. I think a parent's deep personal happiness is ultimately sort of their own adult responsibility and not the kids' concern. They want to know they have stability and love. They're selfish. And really they want both of their parents together, almost no matter what, so to me it's like -- I'm sorry that we weren't compatible but here's what we have now - two happy homes and a big connected family who comes together whenever we can. And then just listen, listen, listen and, oh, if you have a boy, ask lots of open-ended questions about video games and hope they share with you.

More mature conversations are appropriate and necessary with teenagers. All I can say is that from my memories as a teen, I've never seen that whole super open, no rules, no boundaries family structure thing really work long term. The parents are always flakes and the kids grow up and feel like they have to manage their parents. I had the uptight kind of parents with rules and shit, and I definitely thought, wow, those parents who get high or walk around naked are, like, soooo cool. Now that we're all parents? Those parents are now flaky, unreliable grandparents.

This. And my mother wasn't a flake, but she never broke out of the "sibling" slot by deferring to her parents for her entire life in front of me and never sufficiently asserting herself over me in contrast. As in never. ITW, you seem to really get this D/s with realism thing well as a parent - compartments, boundaries etc. without totally breaking the dynamics with your guy.

OP, I'm telling you, it doesn't matter who that other "authority" is, you need to underline YOUR authority with your kids in certain ways, hardcore if they're getting clear demonstrations that you're deferring to someone else. Even if you have the best kids in the world who will never act out just because they have the latitude to do so - they're still going to wonder why you are not tough enough to actually parent.

 

[intothewoods]

This. And my mother wasn't a flake, but she never broke out of the "sibling" slot by deferring to her parents for her entire life in front of me and never sufficiently asserting herself over me in contrast. As in never. ITW, you seem to really get this D/s with realism thing well as a parent - compartments, boundaries etc. without totally breaking the dynamics with your guy.

OP, I'm telling you, it doesn't matter who that other "authority" is, you need to underline YOUR authority with your kids in certain ways, hardcore if they're getting clear demonstrations that you're deferring to someone else. Even if you have the best kids in the world who will never act out just because they have the latitude to do so - they're still going to wonder why you are not tough enough to actually parent.

Oh, thank you. I probably compartmentalize everything to a slightly unhealthy degree but there could be worse things.

To me, the non kink example of this would be Christian submission where the husband is viewed as the head of the household. As far as I know those moms still believe they're an authority figure and, you're right, that's important.

 

[lezzar]

You should probably talk with your kids about it, but even then, it's probably a little too late for that. Since they are teenagers (and you have mentioned that one of them has already garnered an opinion of your lifestyle), they seem intelligent enough to not take your lifestyle as canon and move on with their lives in reluctant acceptance (or disgust) of your relationship with their stepfather.

You are lucky your kids have some common sense, because growing up with that sort of relationship dynamic around the house could have potentially screwed your kids up something bad.

 

[Dyslexicea]

You are lucky your kids have some common sense, because growing up with that sort of relationship dynamic around the house could have potentially screwed your kids up something bad.

I did make my opinion know earlier in this thread but I think I just might have been a bit judgmental. It seem to me that the most SCREWED up kids have parent who happen to be VANILLA.

 

[lezzar]

I did make my opinion know earlier in this thread but I think I just might have been a bit judgmental. It seem to me that the most SCREWED up kids have parent who happen to be VANILLA.

Yeah, that does happen a lot, but the opposite also happens just as frequently (at least from what I've seen).

 

[intothewoods]

I did make my opinion know earlier in this thread but I think I just might have been a bit judgmental. It seem to me that the most SCREWED up kids have parent who happen to be VANILLA.

Sure, there are plenty of ways to screw up a kid. You can be celibate and do that.

 

[Netzach]

Oh, thank you. I probably compartmentalize everything to a slightly unhealthy degree but there could be worse things.

To me, the non kink example of this would be Christian submission where the husband is viewed as the head of the household. As far as I know those moms still believe they're an authority figure and, you're right, that's important.

It's also my understanding that Dad backs this up constantly and consistently, that Mom is in charge of them. The kids never see him pushing her in line for penis-gratification reasons, that's for sure.

 

[Dyslexicea]

Yeah, that does happen a lot, but the opposite also happens just as frequently (at least from what I've seen).

Maybe so but I assure you if having parents who practiced BDSM was a major cause of really messed up children, teens and adults, every shrink would be doing a paper on it, every university would be doing a study on it and it would be big news in the media.

 

[lezzar]

Maybe so but I assure you if having parents who practiced BDSM was a major cause of really messed up children, teens and adults, every shrink would be doing a paper on it, every university would be doing a study on it and it would be big news in the media.

But I'm not saying that children of those who practice BDSM will have problems. I'm saying the way the OP practices it (openly in front of her children without explanation, for years) might cause make them see the world (specifically gender roles) unrealistically.

Thankfully, the way she described it, that wasn't the case.

(Also, I acknowledge that the last part of my original post may have been badly worded.)