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These women are full of crap.

Women have been saying for decades this isn't OK, all of it, the sexual harrassment, the catcalling, the assault, the domestic violence - all of it. And we've been told
'don't take it so seriously'
'don't dress like that'
'don't go there at that time'
'men can't help themselves because biology'
'carry a gun'

... ad fucking nauseum. We get told to smile, because men like it when we're pretty ... but if we're TOO pretty, we're just asking to be raped. We've said, repeatedly, that this sort of behaviour (sexual innuendo in the workplace from men in positions of power, sexual 'compliments' hurled at us in public, etc etc) make us uncomfortable and we've basically been told we're wrong. Because apparently other people know better than we do how we feel.

And now some women are getting angry and everyone's going 'why didn't they say something sooner'? You try living for decades being told 'no, it's not really like that, you're imagining things' and then speak out against sexual misconduct, in a context in which there's a clear power differential.

... and all these men are saying 'oh, we feel so attacked'. Well, guess what - that's what it's like. That's what it's like never knowing when a 'harmless catcall' or 'compliment' from some guy in a street is going to turn into someone trying to drag you into a car. That's what it's like when a bit of 'workplace flirting' might turn into 'do this or I'll make your job very difficult'.

If you don't want to be accused of sexual misconduct, don't behave like an entitled prick who thinks women exist for their amusement. And if a woman does accuse of sexual misconduct and you're a bit confused by that, maybe look at your behaviour and think 'oh, yeah - actually I can see how that was a bit shit - sorry', or even just 'yeah, I can see how you would have felt like that'. When we say something makes us feel uncomfortable/unhappy/threatened, that's HOW WE FUCKING FEEL. Stop telling us we don't.

NB - I've used 'women', and probably also 'men' fairly generically here. I'm fully aware I'm not speaking for all women, nor about all men, but to qualify every statement accordingly would have taken half the day. So I mean 'women who feel this way' and 'men who are dicks'. Hope that's clear.
 
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AnAmericanDarling said:
I thought, in America, it was innocent until proven guilty, but that is no longer the case anymore with this sexual misconduct hysteria. Why are people automatically believing these women and destroying these men’s careers? Maybe, on the rare occasion, one of these women could be telling the truth – but most of these women seem hungry for fame and/or money.

Now, Matt Lauer, Charlie Rose and countless other men are losing their jobs because of these conniving women. Also, especially with someone like Charlie Rose, something that could’ve been accepted decades ago is not accepted today, such as a smack on the butt. If you were smacked on the butt by Matt Lauer twenty years ago, get over it. That’s not sexual misconduct.

As if our country wasn’t divisive enough, it’s now getting to be a thicker line between men and women because these women love to play the victim role – and everyone is rallying to their side. And it’s disgusting. If all these claims were true, why didn’t they say something when they first happened instead of waiting till now? I don’t believe any of it.
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You make that statement as if it were the only important issue in this current exposure of injustice. How many high-profile men have now been implicated? 30? 40? 50?
Where is the sympathy and understanding for the millions of women whose careers have been destroyed by the actions of their predatory, sexually harassing, mysoginistic male bosses and workmates?
 
warrior queen said:
You make that statement as if it were the only important issue in this current exposure of injustice. How many high-profile men have now been implicated? 30? 40? 50?
Where is the sympathy and understanding for the millions of women whose careers have been destroyed by the actions of their predatory, sexually harassing, mysoginistic male bosses and workmates?
Click to expand...

I'm also skeptical that their careers will be 'destroyed' - Woody Allen seems to be doing fine - and even if they are, it seems unlikely they'll be eking out their old age in financial ruin.
 
Adder4321 said:
Okay then, what kind of changes would you like to see?
Click to expand...

Ideally? A world in which men don't automatically assume that just because women wear lipstick or a short skirt, they are asking for a man to forcefully, uninvited, sexually assault them.
A world in which, in order to be in a happy workplace, a woman is not subjected to unwanted sexual innuendo, unacceptable groping of her body, or faced with the choice of either giving her body to a man in a position of power in order to carry out or keep her job.
A world in which women can walk down any street, at any time, and not have to wonder if the next person who catcalls or calls out something sexually suggestive is going to be the one who follows through by grabbing her and dragging her into an unmarked van.

I know that none of these scenarios will ever trully be gone. Women will still be assaulted... verbally and physically.

In reality, men can help us by understanding that what they see as harmless banter is perceived very differently by women. Catcalls and sexually suggestive comments make us feel like objects, not women. They put us on our guard, make us a little afraid, and ultimately damage our self-worth.
Groping in any form instantly makes us feel like we are only there for your pleasure. By coming into our personal and private space that way, what men are indicating is that they have the power and strength to take things a whole lot further, uninvited, and that we have absolutely no means to stop it (regardless of whether the ultimate happens or not....invading our personal, sexual space makes us constantly afraid, uncomfortable, and wary.)

Somehow, between the both of us, men and women, we have to come to a place of mutual respect. Respect of verbal boundaries, respect of personal physical boundaries, and respect of eachother in ways that minimise, if not eliminate, making either one feel like they're somehow lesser than the other.

I wish I had the answer to how we can all move forward to fix this, but I don't.
The best I have been able to do is to teach my sons how to behave appropriately around other people, male and female.
Unfortunately, because we haven't been able to fix any of this so far, I have had to teach my daughter differently. I have had to teach her how to remove herself from uncomfortable situations, how to overcome shame for [possible, future] actions that are never her fault so that she will be able to speak out immediately and not hide it for 20 years, should it happen to her. I have had to teach her how she can maximise her safety while out and about.

I would really love to NOT have to teach my grand-daughters those lessons.
 
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warrior queen said:
Ideally? A world in which men don't automatically assume that just because women wear lipstick or a short skirt, they are asking for a man to forcefully, uninvited, sexually assault them.
A world in which, in order to be in a happy workplace, a woman is not subjected to unwanted sexual innuendo, unacceptable groping of her body, or faced with the choice of either giving her body to a man in a position of power in order to carry out or keep her job.
A world in which women can walk down any street, at any time, and not have to wonder if the next person who catcalls or calls out something sexually suggestive is going to be the one who follows through by grabbing her and dragging her into an unmarked van.

I know that none of these scenarios will ever trully be gone. Women will still be assaulted... verbally and physically.

In reality, men can help us by understanding that what they see as harmless banter is perceived very differently by women. Catcalls and sexually suggestive comments make us feel like objects, not women. They put us on our guard, make us a little afraid, and ultimately damage our self-worth.
Groping in any form instantly makes us feel like we are only there for your pleasure. By coming into our personal and private space that way, what men are indicating is that they have the power and strength to take things a whole lot further, uninvited, and that we have absolutely no means to stop it (regardless of whether the ultimate happens or not....invading our personal, sexual space makes us constantly afraid, uncomfortable, and wary.)

Somehow, between the both of us, men and women, we have to come to a place of mutual respect. Respect of verbal boundaries, respect of personal physical boundaries, and respect of eachother in ways that minimise, if not eliminate, making either one feel like they're somehow lesser than the other.

I wish I had the answer to how we can all move forward to fix this, but I don't.
The best I have been able to do is to teach my sons how to behave appropriately around other people, male and female.
Unfortunately, because we haven't been able to fix any of this so far, I have had to teach my daughter differently. I have had to teach her how to remove herself from uncomfortable situations, how to overcome shame for [possible, future] actions that are never her fault so that she will be able to speak out immediately and not hide it for 20 years, should it happen to her. I have had to teach her how she can maximise her safety while out and about.

I would really love to NOT have to teach my grand-daughters those lessons.
Click to expand...

Thankyou for this post. You presented a perspective and then supported it. Then you offered what you would like to see change. And you did this without name calling. We need more of this. Again thankyou.
 
MagnusRichard said:
Any chance women could learn to understand that harmless banter is actually harmless?
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Sadly, we are well and trully past that ever being a possibility.
Why?
Because a lot of men, over many years, have proven thay are willing and able to make it much, much more serious than just 'harmless'.
 
warrior queen said:
Sadly, we are well and trully past that ever being a possibility.
Why?
Because a lot of men, over many years, have proven thay are willing and able to make it much, much more serious than just 'harmless'.
Click to expand...


So that is a no, yes?

Any other demands?
 
MagnusRichard said:
So that is a no, yes?

Any other demands?
Click to expand...

I did not make a demand. I simply answered your question.
The fact that you completely gloss over the actions of some of your male counterparts which have contributed to this current situation shows me that you, personally, have no desire to be part of the conversation regarding change.

Hopefully, most men will have more sympathy and understanding of why change must happen and be willing to be part of the solution.
 
chillywilly2 said:
some can and some obviously can't...its a lack of compassion I think
Click to expand...

Yes and also a sense of entitlement. "I enjoy doing this, and I don't see why your discomfort should make me stop, so I'll just tell you you're wrong about how you feel.'
 
Invite them along here: I'm sure then they'd be happier with your decision
 
KimGordon67 said:
Yes and also a sense of entitlement. "I enjoy doing this, and I don't see why your discomfort should make me stop, so I'll just tell you you're wrong about how you feel.'
Click to expand...

Leaving out your gender war herrings, that is the way the work world is.

Your personal feelings are not really very important to any employer.

Do your work. Your feelings are your responsibility, yes?
 
MagnusRichard said:
Leaving out your gender war herrings, that is the way the work world is.

Your personal feelings are not really very important to any employer.

Do your work. Your feelings are your responsibility, yes?
Click to expand...

And 'harmless banter' is built into the job descriptions of ... who? All men, or is it just randomly assigned.
 
MagnusRichard said:
Leaving out your gender war herrings, that is the way the work world is.

Your personal feelings are not really very important to any employer.

Do your work. Your feelings are your responsibility, yes?
Click to expand...

... and maybe I don't give a fuck that your feelings are hurt because someone took your 'harmless banter' the wrong way. If people like Weinstein just 'did their jobs', there wouldn't be a problem.
 
KimGordon67 said:
... and maybe I don't give a fuck that your feelings are hurt because someone took your 'harmless banter' the wrong way. If people like Weinstein just 'did their jobs', there wouldn't be a problem.
Click to expand...

I have no feelings on the topic.

I do think real complaints are best handled by due process and not by lynch mobs.
 
stickygirl said:
Invite them along here: I'm sure then they'd be happier with your decision
Click to expand...

I'd be very surprised if he even had employees. Just a pot stirring coward. But in the event he does, what he'll end up with is wrongful termination and discriminatory hiring practices lawsuits. Shrugs.
 
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