Women's Rights & Pornography

Laurel

Kitty Mama
Joined
Aug 27, 1999
Posts
20,685
Spun off Lavender's thread...

Please read the link below (it's a short, well-written article) and respond based on what's contained in the article. Please don't go off on "feminazi" rants or comment on feminism & porn in general.

A quote from the article:

A Feminist Defense of Pornography
by Wendy McElroy

"Feminist positions on pornography currently break down into three rough categories. The most common one - at least, in academia - is that pornography is an expression of male culture through which women are commodified and exploited. A second view, the liberal position, combines a respect for free speech with the principle "a woman's body, a woman's right" and thus produces a defense of pornography along the lines of, "I don't approve of it, but everyone has the right to consume or produce words and images." A third view - a true defense of pornography - arises from feminists who have been labeled "pro-sex" and who argue that porn has benefits for women.

Little dialogue occurs between the three positions. Anti-pornography feminists treat women who disagree as either brainwashed dupes of patriarchy or as apologists for pornographers. In the anthology Sexual Liberals and the Attack on Feminism (1990), editor Dorchen Leidholdt claims that feminists who believe women make their own choices about pornography are spreading "a felicitous lie" (p. 131). In the same work, Sheila Jeffreys argues that "pro-sex" feminists are "eroticizing dominance and subordination." Wendy Stock accuses free speech feminists of identifying with their oppressors "much like ... concentration camp prisoners with their jailors" (p. 150). Andrea Dworkin accuses them of running a "sex protection racket" (p. 136) and maintains that no one who defends pornography can be a feminist.

The liberal feminists who are personally uncomfortable with pornography tend to be intimidated into silence. Those who continue to speak out, like American Civil Liberties Union President Nadine Strossen (Defending Pornography) are ignored. For example, Catharine MacKinnon has repeatedly refused to share a stage with Strossen or any woman who defends porn. "Pro-sex" feminists - many of whom are current or former sex-workers - often respond with anger, rather than arguments.

Peeling back the emotions, what are the substantive questions raised by each feminist perspective?"

read full article at:
http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/mcelroy_17_4.html
 
I like boobies.

Even Feminzai boobies, as long as they don't sag.

Also, no veins.
 
Golly, that's just plain heartless. :D

The Adult Industry is the only sector of the job market in which women out earn men dollar for dollar.


Guru said:
Porn is one of the few areas where women can have all the power. They can exploit men's base emotions, take their money, and leave them with almost nothing.
 
Laurel said:

Little dialogue occurs between the three positions. Anti-pornography feminists treat women who disagree as either brainwashed dupes of patriarchy or as apologists for pornographers. In the anthology Sexual Liberals and the Attack on Feminism (1990), editor Dorchen Leidholdt claims that feminists who believe women make their own choices about pornography are spreading "a felicitous lie" (p. 131). In the same work, Sheila Jeffreys argues that "pro-sex" feminists are "eroticizing dominance and subordination." Wendy Stock accuses free speech feminists of identifying with their oppressors "much like ... concentration camp prisoners with their jailors" (p. 150). Andrea Dworkin accuses them of running a "sex protection racket" (p. 136) and maintains that no one who defends pornography can be a feminist.

I am a firm free speech believer, having spent most of my life in the newspaper and publishing business. I also live in a state (Nevada) where postitution is legal in many counties and is an accepted fact by the citizenry. Pornography is more prevelant here than in other places I have lived.

I don't fit the molds of any of the above, really. However, I do think that because I defend pornography, I am also defending those women (and men) who choose to participate in it.

I don't know if I am a feminist or not. I really don't like labels. I am a woman who believes in free speech and believes that people, women specifically in this case, have a right to make choices about their own lives. If that means they are centerfolds or strippers or prostitutes, so be it.
 
Let's see if I finish this post before my modem decides to go offline again...

From a personal perspective, I am quite comfortable with the existence of a 'porn industry' in general. I do not feel that there should be any stigmitization of women involved in the adult industry. So long as choices are freely made they are just that, choices.

I have more concerns on a societal level. In my various perusals of internet sites I have noticed that an overwhelming majority of sites that one gets directed (seemingly regardless of search parameters) are 'teen' sites. There also seems to be a good number of sites based upon the exploitation or humiliation of women. It is almost as if the internet porn industry is trying its best to create an army of misogynists that hang out at high schools...
 
Dougy said:
It is almost as if the internet porn industry is trying its best to create an army of misogynists that hang out at high schools...

How so?

Are the situations in porn any further from reality than the situations in your average blockbuster movie?

That is to say, is "adult" entertainment any more "exploitative" than non-adult programs or movies?

And is it "exploitative" to show fantastical situations? Or is this the point of fantasy?
 
From McElroy's article (emphasis mine):

Degrading is a subjective term. I find commercials in which women become orgasmic over soapsuds to be tremendously degrading. The bottom line is that every woman has the right to define what is degrading and liberating for herself.

The assumed degradation is often linked to the "objectification" of women: that is, porn converts them into sexual objects. What does this mean? If taken literally, it means nothing because objects don't have sexuality; only beings do. But to say that porn portrays women as "sexual beings" makes for poor rhetoric. Usually, the term sex objects means showing women as body parts, reducing them to physical objects. What is wrong with this? Women are as much their bodies as they are their minds or souls. No one gets upset if you present women as "brains" or as spiritual beings. If I concentrated on a woman's sense of humor to the exclusion of her other characteristics, is this degrading? Why is it degrading to focus on her sexuality?
 
Laurel said:


How so?

Are the situations in porn any further from reality than the situations in your average blockbuster movie?

That is to say, is "adult" entertainment any more "exploitative" than non-adult programs or movies?

And is it "exploitative" to show fantastical situations? Or is this the point of fantasy?

It all depends on the type of porn.

There's the "mainstream" porn that is mainly the porn movies that try to have a plot and story. Many female directors and producers thrive in the mainstream porn industry. This is the porn that most people think about, with the major porn stars.

But then there's the "gonzo" side of porn. Porn where women are treated as nothing more than sex objects to be used, abused, and thrown away. This area of porn is by far the most demeaning form of porn for women. The movies have no plots, and are just pure, raw sex meant for the enjoyment of men. Although some women enjoy these movies also I'm sure.
 
Bob_Bytchin said:


It all depends on the type of porn.

There's the "mainstream" porn that is loaded with the porn movies that try to have a plot and story. Many female directors and producers thrive in the mainstream porn industry.

But then there's the "gonzo" side of porn. Porn where women are treated as nothing more than sex objects to be used, abused, and thrown away. This area of porn is by far the most demeaning form of porn for women. The movies have no plots, and are just pure, raw sex meant for the enjoyment of men. Although some women enjoy these movies also I'm sure.

No one's forcing these women to do this. It's money, that's how they make it. It can only demean them if they LET it. No one can exploit you if you don't want them to, it's pretty simple.

When I watch porn, I don't give a fuck about her mind, I want to see tits. And ass. And pussy. I don't give a shit what she has to say about government or poetry. It's PORN.
 
Bob_Bytchin said:
It all depends on the type of porn.

There's the "mainstream" porn that is loaded with the porn movies that try to have a plot and story. Many female directors and producers thrive in the mainstream porn industry.

But then there's the "gonzo" side of porn. Porn where women are treated as nothing more than sex objects to be used, abused, and thrown away. This area of porn is by far the most demeaning form of porn for women. The movies have no plots, and are just pure, raw sex meant for the enjoyment of men. Although some women enjoy these movies also I'm sure.

"Demeaning" how? And how is this distinct from mainstream entertainment and culture - for beauty pageants, sitcoms, whatever?

And like McElroy asked in my post above, why is it "demeaning" to focus on a woman's sexuality?
 
The question

The question seem to be: Are the women who are involved in pron doing it of their own free will?
 
Porn really saved my marriage. It didn't make him want me more, or rouse him to want sex more, but taught him how to be a good enough lover for him to satisfy me sexually, so I didn't run off with some other fuck buddies.


However, in regard to the potential of exploitation, we know it exists, and that women are often swayed by the $$$ and will set aside any hesitations for it, them more money involved, and that they may come to later regret what they chose to do.

There is one porn site in particular that DCL brought up that makes it look like they are intentionally exploiting girls into having sex, because they have a premise that they are trying out for modling/Acting positions. There is little actual chance though that those girls walk on the set blind to what is going on, even though it is set up to look that way. So, this just says to me that there are a bunch of dudes out there that get off on exploiting women, and have been for several decades.

It wasn't till the early 90's that women started freely producing, directing and budgeting porn. So, I see why the rally against porn for the soul purpose of it being exploitive came about.
However, times change, lessons are learned, and women are gaining a great deal of power and say over what is being produced. There is a lot more porn out that tries to involve multi layered plots, so it isn't boring, and that is obviously got something to do with women, because men think it is all babble between the good parts. ;)


Really, though, Porn is not evil. People are evil and there will always be someone who exploits someone else, and it doesn't mean that the sound minded should have to suffer porn deprivation because of it.



THe Starfish Pro Porn For Women's Empowerment Campaign begins now.
 
lavender said:
My post about how our sexuality has been created in a patriarchal world demonstrates how focus on a woman's sexuality is demeaning. For the sexuality they focus on is not the woman's but the sexuality that the man wants to see.

Additionally, the woman's sexuality is produced, marketed for men - not women.

All we know of sex, Laurel, comes from various things.

1. Nature - what we just naturally know
2. Parents/older friends - those who have taught us some things, even maybe our sexual morality
3. Peers - our peers are just as dominated by the system as we are.
4. TV/Books/Online/Porn - completely dominated by men
5. Listening to our instincts - do our instincts say do this because god I really want it right here and right now, or do they tell us, I know how to turn that guy on?

Most of these 5 cannot truly be independent from a patriarchal society. Most of these 5 are only perpetuated by the system in which they were created.

I disagree. I think that assumes that women are brainless, spineless droids that need to be "told" what is and is not arousing - in much the same way that "rap music causes school shootings" assumes the same about children (that they're are brainless, spineless droids, that is).

It has the extra bonus of being able to patronizingly paint any woman who happens to find "male-centered porn" erotic, or who enjoys stripping or other adult professions, as brainwashed or bowing down to men.

Thus, female sexuality in many ways does not belong to a woman - at least not at the present time.

I think many feminists believe that if we eliminate porn and the sexualization of women in TV/books/movies/media etc. then we can start over from ground one, deconstruct the type of society we are in today, and build back up. They believe that in this way we might be able to craft and own our own sexuality - one that is truly unique to women.

This is much like the fundamentalists Christians who believe if we rid the world of images of sex, homosexuality, and other "evils", then we can "teach" them to be "more moral".
 
Laurel said:
Are the situations in porn any further from reality than the situations in your average blockbuster movie?

That is to say, is "adult" entertainment any more "exploitative" than non-adult programs or movies?

And is it "exploitative" to show fantastical situations? Or is this the point of fantasy?
Though all of your points are valid, there is one thing lacking with 'adult' entertainment...open dialogue about it. Blockbuster movies are much more of a 'public' brand of entertainment in that they are openly discussed and the unreality is pointed out. Adult entertainment in most circles is more of a personal or intimate experience. Social interaction does not more or less normalize ones thoughts on adult entertainment.

I would say that a cross section of 'adult' entertainment is certainly more exploitative than non-adult programs and movies. There is an entire genre that one stumble across on the internet of the "fuck you, bitch" category. Which leads directly into the fantastical situation question.

It may not qualify as exploitative to show fantastical situations, but as I recall puberty, the sexual situations that I was exposed to were particularly powerful at the time. It is not exploitative, but it is an area in which many out there are more impressionable, and many of the impressions I have seen on internet porn sites are not ones that I would have wanted to grow up with as my ideas of sexual interaction.
 
Dougy said:
Though all of your points are valid, there is one thing lacking with 'adult' entertainment...open dialogue about it.

I agree.
 
Isn't about time all you women stopped with the yapping and started with the showing me tits? I thought so.
 
Re: The question

lexium said:
The question seem to be: Are the women who are involved in pron doing it of their own free will?
That would be the ultimate question to my mind. A lot of people do a lot of shitty jobs because it's the best they can come up with. You all have read (or at least heard of) Babara Ehrenreich's book "Nickled and Dimed" about low wage jobs. If I were sure that all of the women who participated in the "adult industry" were there of their own free will, I would definitely say that it was a liberating, feminist activity. But I think for many it may be just another form of indentured servitude, bordering on wage slavery.
 
"Demeaning" how? And how is this distinct from mainstream entertainment and culture - for beauty pageants, sitcoms, whatever?

And like McElroy asked in my post above, why is it "demeaning" to focus on a woman's sexuality?

Sexuality itself is an objectification of women. The misogyny of sex is exposed through the lexicography of our culture: I don't want to be obscene about this, but think about the most common sexual insults. To take one example, what does it mean to be a "fag" except to adopt the women's position in sex?

Like all interesting subjects, sex is inherently contradictory.

It's a mistake, though, to objectify sex itself to make it less controversial. Better to accept the contradiction, and to revel in it.
 
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