Why capitalism doesn't and can't work

[Don K Dyck]

Beats Everything Else . . .

Capitalism works.

It just works better on somedays than others.

I agree, MJR

 

[Hamletmaschine]

The internal contradictions of capitalism will eventually bring about its demise, as Marx predicted. At the end of history, we'll all be Communists again.

It'll be cool, sort of like Grateful Dead concert.

 

[Mad_Jack_Rabbit]

Why capitalism doesn't and won't work...

No good lazy Capitalism... Cut it's welfare benefits I say, make it start working instead of sponging off the rest of us.

Bloody scrounger.

 

[Mad_Jack_Rabbit]

The internal contradictions of capitalism will eventually bring about its demise, as Marx predicted. At the end of history, we'll all be Communists again.

What a load of bollocks!

Ideas get reviewed and revised, the diversity of practises in 'capitalist societies' ensures its survival.

Communism doesn't last long.

 

[Hamletmaschine]

Yes, sure, capitalism is like a virus. It keeps mutating. Marx predicted that, too.

But in the end, it's gonna die out.

Don't worry, you'll be dead by then.

 

[phrodeau]

The world is too complex in this century for any one ideology to be universally valid. Capitalism works for some and not for others. Socialism works for some and not for others. Communism works for some (somebody, somewhere) and not for others. Most developed countries operate under a blend of ideologies, and these social experiments refine that blend to find the ideal combination for their society. But does anybody believe that an ideal blend can work for everyone everywhere?

 

[Coolville]

Not true.

There are collectivist aspects of tibal societies. ie. The caring for the old, infirm, etc. The significant difference is that it is a societal burden volutarily shouldered. It is not imposed by a tribal leadership that goes around and forcefully takes away from some to re-distribute to others. Plots of land were farmed by the individual families. Goods manufactured were traded for other goods by the individual families. All trade was quo quid pro, and unregulated. Pointing to social structures and equating that to government is disengenuous.

Ishmael

Well that's a tricky one.
who should I believe. a dozen of the world's leading anthropologists who have researched, analyzed and discussed for years or some online guy in Florida who, while writing nice poetry and being obviously one of the less-dull knives in the drawer, states his opinion after ten minutes of thought.

Hmmm.

 

[LovetoGiveRoses]

Some info on taxes:

AbstractThis study calculates how much additional money middle- income workers must earn to purchase various goods and ser vices--a new car, a computer, or a year's college tuition for their children--after all taxes are fully taken into account. For instance, a wage earner in an average-tax state must earn $17,038 to purchase a $10,000 car. That means that the work er pays $7,038 in income, payroll, and sales taxes on a $10,000 car. The study finds that in some high-tax states, such as California and New York, the "true" price to consum ers of goods and services is twice the retail price because of taxes. Self-employed workers, who must pay a self-employ ment tax, routinely must also earn double the retail price of an item to have the after-tax income to buy it. That is the "rule of two on taxes."

 

[LovetoGiveRoses]

Now, looking for a chart on who pays...

 

[LovetoGiveRoses]

This isn't who pays, but it interesting nonetheless:

International Tax Competition
A 21st-Century Restraint on Government

by Chris Edwards and Veronique de Rugy

Executive Summary

Globalization is knitting separate national economies into a single world economy. That is occurring as a result of rising trade and investment flows, greater labor mobility, and rapid transfers of technology.

As economic integration increases, individuals and businesses gain greater freedom to take advantage of foreign economic opportunities. That, in turn, increases the sensitivity of investment and location decisions to taxation. Countries feel pressure to reduce tax rates to avoid driving away their tax bases. International "tax competition" is increasing as capital and labor mobility rises.

Most industrial countries have pursued tax reforms to ensure that their economies remain attractive for investment. The average top personal income tax rate in the major industrial countries of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development has fallen 20 percentage points since 1980. The average top corporate income tax rate has fallen 6 percentage points in just the past six years.

Rising tax competition has caused governments to also adopt defensive rules to prevent residents and businesses from enjoying lower tax rates abroad. In the United States, such tax rules are hugely complex and affect the ability of U.S. companies to compete in world markets. Other defensive responses to tax competition include proposals to harmonize taxes across countries and to restrict countries from offering tax climates that are too hospitable to foreign investment inflows.

Those defensive responses to tax competition are a dead end. They do nothing to promote economic growth or reform inefficient tax systems. A more constructive response to tax competition would be to learn from foreign reforms and adopt pro-growth tax policies at home. The United States should be a leader but has fallen behind on tax reform. For example, the United States now has one of the highest corporate tax rates among major nations. The chairman of the president's Council of Economic Advisers, Glenn Hubbard, believes that "from an income tax perspective, the United States has become one of the least attractive industrial countries in which to locate the headquarters of a multinational corporation."

As international capital and labor mobility rises, the risks associated with not having an efficient federal tax structure increase. This country should respond to rising tax competition by moving toward a low-rate consumption-based system.

 

[LovetoGiveRoses]

According to the congressional budget office the top 5% of earners pays 50% of the incomes taxes paid in this country.

Here's a chart, but it only shows the top 20% as a bracket. Very few people seem to pay income taxes.

 

[REDWAVE]

Roses

If you're going to C&P an article, you should at least give its source. NewsMax, I presume?

 

[Unclebill]

Re: Myths

Originally posted by Ishmael
This thread is replete with myths. Lets explode a few.

. . . "Capitalism requires government requlation"

No it doesn't. I think that we can agree that the worst form of capitalism is the monopoly. Monopolies being the extreme manifestation of the restraint of free trade. A situation whereby a singular entity can set prices regardless of supply and demand. That is not capitalism. It is the antithesis of capitalism and in most instances it's called 'government'. The incredible thing about this line of thought is that the collectivists want to insinuate governement as a replacement for the very evil that they perceive in capitalism. The argument being that this is what 'might' happen (and it's real bad) so we'll step in and make sure that it does happen (we did it so it must be good).

Monopolies cannot occur without the concurrence and support of government.

Ishmael

In fact, once regulation enters the equation, capitalism is gone. It has been replaced with a controlled economy even if some vestigial traits of capitalism are permitted to remain. This is what we have in the U. S. currently but we are moving steadily toward the collectivist economy centrally controlled by a government organization.

But, Ish, when government bureaucrats do it, it's not evil. They are good people who would never be motivated by greed or tempted to exercise any unethical behaviors to their own selfish benefit. That's the beauty of collectivism; the people who practice it are such nice people ... like Stalin, Lenin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Hussein, Castro, Kruschev, et al.

I find it particularly intriguing that the people who advocate collectivism can't sell their ideas by presenting them honestly. In order to get people to follow them, they must misrepresent their views as well as those of others. They must lie, i. e., defraud people, to attract followers.

In the case of capitalism, they must attribute to capitalism the maladies of collectivism and count on the ignorance of their victims to win followers.

 

[REDWAVE]

UB

Please spew your nonsense on some other thread.

 

[A Desert Rose]

About regulating business

The more governmental controls that are placed on the business owner, the more cost is incurred (OSHA is a great example) and the more costs are incurred to the business owner translates to higher prices to the consumer and eventually, more employee layoffs. This is so simple to understand.

 

[Pagliacci]

Re: UB

Please spew your nonsense on some other thread.

As opposed to the truth that you present in order to enlighten oppressed and uninformed masses ?

 

[REDWAVE]

Nice

Nice tootsies there, Rose. It's a shame such an ugly mind is in such a lovely body.

 

[REDWAVE]

A more serious reply

Gee golly, Rose, I see I got it wrong there. I thought the massive layoffs were due to the collapse of the speculative bubble of the 1990's, and the never-ending push of the capitalists to squeeze more profits out of the hides of the workers. In fact, in my utter naivety, I thought the deregulation of business, especially the loosening of accounting rules, caused the orgy of corporate fraud which has led to the current collapse. But, no, now thanks to you I see the light: it's all due to government regulation of business. Why, if we just leave the giant corporations alone and let them do whatever they please, we'll all be swimmin' in dough real quickly! Yeah, yeah!

 

[A Desert Rose]

Re: Nice

Nice tootsies there, Rose. It's a shame such an ugly mind is in such a lovely body.
[/QUOTE


Aren't you ever the gentleman?

 

[A Desert Rose]

Re: A more serious reply

Gee golly, Rose, I see I got it wrong there.

The only correct thing you have said to me so far. REDWAVE, it's simple economics. ~shaking her head~

 

[REDWAVE]

I see you changed your av already, ADR-- and before I had a chance to copy the tootsie one.

 

[A Desert Rose]

I see you changed your av already, ADR-- and before I had a chance to copy the tootsie one.

you want those tootsies back? I can accomodate you..... ~smiling~

I knew we could find common ground, pal.

 

[A Desert Rose]

But don't forget.... these are capitalist twinke toes.... ~smiling~

 

[REDWAVE]

Thanks!

Thanks, A Desert Rose. I copied it to my hard drive.

 

[70/30]

Why Repubs are better than Libertarians

Simple economics that doesn't care who lives or dies, sounds like a version of natural selection. Don't be surprised if brawn tries to overtake brain, but I guess that is what the military/police state is for. Nobody addresses environmental and consumer safety concerns. Nobody addresses the disparity in educational opportunities. Piece from Colin Powell's speech at the 2000 GOP Convention (too bad bush doesn't follow though on the compassionate part) http://racerelations.about.com/gi/d...nventions/republican/transcripts/u000731.html

"I've met so many young people who believe in the dream. They're on a road to success. They're being raised in strong families, going to good schools, filling the finest universities, graduating and then going on to find their place and fortune in this blessed land of ours. Even the youngest of them, still in elementary school, are getting ready for the future, using computers, logging onto the Internet, while still enjoying the magic of childhood by curling up with a Harry Potter book.

There is so much that is so good and right in America tonight, my friends, that we ought to be very, very proud of this wonderful country of ours.

(APPLAUSE)

And yet, I cannot ignore and we cannot ignore other things I've seen in my travels. I've seen poverty. I've seen failing communities. I've seen people who've lost hope. Tragically, I've seen too many young Americans who were overwhelmed by the daily struggle just to survive. I've seen kids destroying themselves with drugs, kids who see violence and crime as the answer to their hopelessness, kids who no longer believe in themselves and who don't see a reason to believe in America. I've seen kids in utter despair. I've visited kids in jail doing adult time for the crimes they've committed.

They are part of a growing population of over 2 million Americans behind bars -- 2 million convicts, not consumers; 2 million Americans who while paying for their crimes are not paying taxes, are not there for their children and are not raising families. Most of them are men and the majority of those men are minorities.

The issue of race still casts a shadow over our society. Despite the impressive progress we have made over the last 40 years to overcome this legacy of our troubled past, it is still with us.

POWELL: So with all the success we have enjoyed and with all the wealth we have created, we have much more work to do and a long way to go to bring the promise of America to every single American.

(APPLAUSE)

And with all we have to do on our national agenda, I am convinced that to deliver on that promise, we must begin with our children. So many of the problems we worry about go back to how we raised our children.

The problem is as simple and as direct as this: We either get back to the task of building our children the way we know how, or we're going to keep building jails in America. And it's time to stop building jails in America and get back to the task of building our children.

(APPLAUSE)

Listen, listen...

(APPLAUSE)

And listen, listen, listen very carefully. Our children are not the problem. They are our future. They are America's promise. The problem is us, if we fail to give them what they need to be successful in life. The burden is on us, not on our children.

(APPLAUSE)

That mission -- that mission of providing for our children has become the passion of my life because what I've seen over the last several years convinces me of the following truths: One, that if you want to solve our drug problem, you won't do it by trying to cut off supply and arresting pushers on the street corners alone. It will only be solved when we place into the heart of every child growing up in America the moral strength never to fall for the destructive lure of drugs. The strength...

(APPLAUSE)

We will only solve and cure this plague of drugs is when we have given to each and every one of our children the strength to just say -- and you've heard it before -- just say, "No. Not me. I won't do it. I've got too much to live for. I'll never do drugs."

POWELL: And that's what we owe our children, to give them that strength to fight against the curse of drugs.

(APPLAUSE)

I believe...

(APPLAUSE)

I believe that if you want to solve the problem of violence and crime on our streets, it begins with us teaching children to value life, their own and others, and to have respect for themselves and to have respect for others.

If you want young people to become contributing citizens and not convicts, then early in life we must give them the character and the confidence they need to succeed in this exciting new world that we are laying out before them.

(APPLAUSE)

And it begins in the home. It begins with caring, loving parents and family members who pass on the virtues of past generation, who live good lives which serve as models for their children. Children learn from watching the adults in their family and their lives, and where the family is broken or the where the family is not up to the task, the rest of us must step in to help as mentors, tutors, foster parents, friends to kids who desperately need responsible adults to show them the way.

Tens of thousands of our neighbors have already stepped forward, tens of thousands who realize that our children are a gift from God, not only to their parents, but to all of us. They belong to us all. We are all responsible for them.

(APPLAUSE)

We need to provide a safe place for those kids to learn and to grow, more clubs and after-school programs to protect them from the dangers that exist in our society and our streets. We need to surround them with more adults in this clubs who will keep them in play.

We are obliged to make sure that every child gets a healthy start in life. With all of our wealth and capacity, we just can't stand by idly.

POWELL: We must make sure that every child in America has access to quality health care. We owe them nothing less. It has to be done. It is our responsibility to do that for our children.

(APPLAUSE)

As we are giving these necessities and other necessities to our children, let's ask them to also give something back to the community of which they are a part. Early in life, help them learn of the joy that comes from giving to others, help them learn that through service to others, service to community, they will put virtues in their heart that will make them absolutely beautiful adults when they grow up; and that what's important in life is giving to others, not whether your sneakers cost more than someone else's sneakers. That's the kind of value and virtue we have to put into the heart of our children. Let our children be part of the solution.

(APPLAUSE)

With character in their hearts, with nurturing adults in their lives, our youngsters will be ready for the schooling that will give them the education needed to win those jobs of the future.

There is work for all of us here to do -- parents, aunts, uncles, teachers, the government at all levels, the private sector, our great non-profits, our houses of worship, all joining in the crusade to point kids in the right direction of life.

POWELL: And tonight, we focus on education, the keystone to it all. Governor Bush has rightly made children and education the centerpiece of his campaign for president. You heard him say it earlier, we can't leave any child behind.

(APPLAUSE)

Every child -- every child deserves and must receive a quality education. Because when you give a quality education to a child who believes in himself or herself, then even with the bleakest beginning in life, that child can make it. And once that child makes it and gets out into the workplace and is earning a decent living, you have broken the cycle of poverty and failure for that family forever. Education is the key to breaking that cycle of poverty and failure.

(APPLAUSE)

So many...

(APPLAUSE)

So many, many of our public schools are doing a fine job preparing our youngsters. I have been given no greater honor than to have had four public schools named after me, an honor that is greater than any medals I have received.

(APPLAUSE)

(APPLAUSE)

POWELL: In those four schools and so many others that I visited, you've never seen better facilities, you've never seen more dedicated teachers, you've never seen more involved parents. It makes your heart pound with pride to see those great schools that we have in America.

But I've also seen too many schools that are failing. They are trapped in fossilized bureaucracies -- bureaucracies that have low expectations for children and consequently set low standards for them. These schools are failing our children, and they must be fixed, and they must be fixed now.

(APPLAUSE)

You know, if we truly believe -- if we truly believe they are all our children, then all of us must be willing to spend more to repair our schools and spend more to pay our teachers better. But we must also be open to new ideas. Let's not be afraid of standardized testing for students. Let's not be afraid of testing teachers' qualifications. Let's not be afraid of charter schools.

(APPLAUSE)

Let's not be afraid of using private scholarship money to give poor parents a choice that wealthy parents have.

(APPLAUSE)

Let's not be afraid of home schooling. Let's experiment prudently with school voucher programs to see if they help.

(APPLAUSE)

What are we afraid of?

(APPLAUSE)

POWELL: Let's use innovation and competition, good old American innovation, good old American competition to help give our children the best education possible.

Why? You know, we invite skilled workers to come to America from all over the world to fill the good jobs that are waiting here. I think that's great. Immigration is part of our life's blood. It's part of the essence of who we are as Americans.

I am the son of immigrants. But I also want our kids here educated and trained for those jobs. We owe it to them, and we've got to get on with the task right now.

(APPLAUSE)

Governor Bush has shown in Texas in just a few short years what can be done for education. As governor, he ended social promotions for kids. He increased state funding by $8 billion. He put new textbooks in every school in the state of Texas. He strengthened standardized testing in all Texas public schools.

He insisted on teacher competency, and he expanded the charter school movement. Seventeen thousand Texas kids are now in charter school. Seventy-eight percent of those kids are minorities. Their parents had a choice, and they decided what was best for their children.

(APPLAUSE)

And the results -- the results in Texas have been dramatic.

POWELL: The number of students in Texas passing all parts of the standardized tests since 1994, when Governor Bush came in the office, the number has increased by 51 percent.

(APPLAUSE)

Even -- even more exciting -- even more exciting, the number of minority students passing the tests has increased by 89 percent.

(APPLAUSE)

That's what we can do for our children.

He hasn't stopped there. He hasn't stopped there. To ensure a diverse college population, with the loss of affirmative action, Governor Bush has guaranteed acceptance at public universities to the top 10 percent of every high school graduating class in the state.

And above all -- above all -- he has insisted on accountability for results that will tell us whether we're getting our money's worth.

(APPLAUSE)

You see, Governor Bush -- Governor Bush has shown us that it works. It all comes together. Governor Bush doesn't just talk about reform, he reforms. And he as done it in Texas with education.

(APPLAUSE)

Governor Bush now offers the leadership that he has demonstrated in Texas to the nation. In pursuing education reform, as well as in all other parts of his agenda in Texas, Governor Bush has reached out to all Texans -- white, black, Latino, Asian, Native American.

POWELL: He has been successful on bringing more and more minorities into the tent by responding to their deepest needs. Some call it compassionate conservatism. To me, it's just caring about people.

(APPLAUSE)

I believe he can do the same thing as president. I am convinced he will bring to the White House that same passion for inclusion. I know that he can help bridge our racial divides. I know that. Recently...

(APPLAUSE)

Recently, Governor Bush addressed the annual meeting of the NAACP. He spoke to the delegates about his plans for housing and health and educational programs to help all Americans. He also spoke the truth to the delegates when he said that the party of Lincoln has not always carried the mantle of Lincoln. I talked with him again today and I know that with all his heart, Governor Bush welcomes the challenge. He wants the Republican Party to wear that mantle again.

(APPLAUSE)

But he knows and I know and all of you must know that it's going to take hard work.

POWELL: He knows that that mantle will not simply be handed over, that it will have to be earned. The party must follow the governor's lead in reaching out to minority communities and particularly the African-American community.

And not just during an election year campaign. My friends, if we're serious about this it has to be a sustained effort, it must be every day, and it must be for real. The party must listen to and speak with all leaders of the black community, regardless of political affiliation or philosophy.

We must understand, my friends, we must understand that there is a problem for us out there. We must understand the cynicism that exists in the black community, the kind of cynicism that is created when, for example, some in our party miss no opportunity to roundly and loudly condemn affirmative action that helped a few thousand black kids get an education, but you hardly hear a whimper when it's affirmative action for lobbyists who load our federal tax code with preferences for special interests. It doesn't work. It doesn't work. You can't make that case.

(APPLAUSE)

Overcoming the cynicism and mistrust that exists, and raising up that mantle of Lincoln, is about more -- it's much more about than just winning votes, it is about giving all minorities a competitive choice.

POWELL: They deserve that choice. And if we give them that choice, it will be good for our party. But above all, it will be good for America, and we need to work to give them that choice.

(APPLAUSE)

Good for America -- that must be the measure for all that we do. I believe that's the measure that Governor Bush will use to guide his actions as president. Whether it's economic policy or military strategy or seeing what we can do to make our American family more inclusive, he will always try to do that which is good and right for America."