Why capitalism doesn't and can't work

[REDWAVE]

Bump!

Man, this is a happenin' thread. I've clearly touched a nerve here. It's been cooking along all this time without me having to do anything.

 

[Aquila]

Exactly...for a privileged few.

About the redistribution of wealth through the tax code and welfare, seems to me that it has failed miserably, that is in the the redistribution of wealth arena. Since the inception of the welfare system, the very wealthy in our society have seen their assets and incomes increase at a rate totally disproportionate to the rest of us. If this is an example of how the tax code punishes the wealthy then I could use some of that punishment. Perhaps the hidden reason for the increase in the wealth of the privileged is the welfare system itself. Afterall, 99% of the money actually given out goes immediately back into the economy in the form of grocery purchases and other such necessities.

The Soviet Union was not a truly Socialist Democratic state. It was a tyranny with the economy controlled by a few select individuals and manipulated by them for their own gains. Rather like the US economy is becoming. The only difference is we call these men CEO's and Chairmen of the Board and worship them as if they were Jesus Christ incarnate. Wolves in sheep clothing more like it.

Let's bomb Iraq and ask for wage concessions. That should be the Republican mantra. Most of the Democrats too.

Most of the economic burden of taxes is doled out to the MIDDLE class, not the upper class because of tax breaks and loopholes. is why they made more and more.. however I say more power to em. if you can make it Go for it.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Re: Bump!

Man, this is a happenin' thread. I've clearly touched a nerve here. It's been cooking along all this time without me having to do anything.

Not unlike the any of your other threads..... ~smiling~

 

[A Desert Rose]

Most of the economic burden of taxes is doled out to the MIDDLE class, not the upper class because of tax breaks and loopholes. is why they made more and more.. however I say more power to em. if you can make it Go for it.

Who provides jobs for the middle class? Answer: the so-called upper class.

 

[Aquila]

Who provides jobs for the middle class? Answer: the so-called upper class.

yeap, and someday I hope to be a full fledge upper class monied capitolist myself then Ill provide more jobs for the middle class, and then someone else can work his or her way up the ladder if they are savvy enough.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Amen, babeeee.

Putting a heavier tax burden on the upper class, i.e. big business, results in layoffs and cutbacks. Then who is really injured? You and me.......

 

[Velius]

<snip>
Finally, capitalism inherently breeds racism, sexism, homophobia, etc., and ultimately war.

Umm...no not really. Capitalism doesn't "inherently" breed any of that. Most of the current racism, sexism and homophobia are left overs from the Christian church. Capitalism is a flawed system, but any halfwit with eyes can see that.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Much less flawed than any other..... We have seen and are still seeing the results and fate of communism, are we not? Or are you all too young to remember the Berlin Wall?

 

[Velius]

The implementation of it is better than most others. It's still flawed though...all systems are.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Man, this is a happenin' thread.

Yeah. A whole page and a half. You're a fucking Phenom.

 

[REDWAVE]

Outworn dogmas

Ishmael in his post merely repeated the outworn dogmas of capitalist propoganda which have been thoroughly debunked by recent events. People are not paid exactly what they're worth. Some are grossly overpaid, and many are underpaid. Many corporate CEO's have raked in huge compensation while their companies collapsed and their stock prices took a nosedive. Enron is one spectacular example, but there are many, many other. Conversely, many people are underpaid: homemakers, who render extremely valuable services raising children but often aren't compensated at all; migrant agricultural workers, who are viciously exploited by agribusiness; workers in sweatshops, etc., etc., etc. As the old saying goes, "It's not what you know, but who you know, and who you blow." Bush's whole business career, for instance, was based on cronyism, political influence, and dirty deals. He didn't earn a penny, yet he raked in millions.

Another absurd dogma of the right-wing ideologues is that government can produce nothing. That is total nonsense which flies in the face of reality. Governments have produced roads, schools, parks, hospitals, etc. The Tennessee Valley Authority and the building of the Hoover Dam, one of the greatest engineering feats of all time, show how well government can produce. The NASA space program could never have been accomplished by private industry: no investors would ever have sank the huge amounts of money required into such a risky, untried venture.

Under socialism, society will achieve levels of productivity and accomplishment totally undreamed of in this decrepit, dying capitalist society.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Re: Outworn dogmas

Another absurd dogma of the right-wing ideologues is that government can produce nothing. That is total nonsense which flies in the face of reality. Governments have produced roads, schools, parks, hospitals, etc. The Tennessee Valley Authority and the building of the Hoover Dam, one of the greatest engineering feats of all time, show how well government can produce.

Jesus Christ....... Government does not produce those things, you dolt.

Tax dollars are provided for them and they are bid on by private enterprise and then contructed by private enterprise.

You are amazing.....ly dumb.

 

[Ishmael]

Hmmmmmmmmm, so. We'll set up a government commission that will determine everyones worth and exactly what they'll be paid.

That's wonderful.

Ishmael

 

[A Desert Rose]

REDWAVE, please never, ever leave and never stop posting threads.

You make me feel so fucking smart. It does great things for my self image and ego. ~smiling~

 

[Ishmael]

Re: Re: Outworn dogmas

Jesus Christ....... Government does not produce those things, you dolt.

Tax dollars are provided for them and they are bid on by private enterprise and then contructed by private enterprise.

You are amazing.....ly dumb.

Isn't he though? Probably can't balance his checkbook. But why should he. If it's out of balance it's that greedy capitalists banks fault. Right?

Hasn't a clue about real world economics. Never will have one.

Ishmael

 

[KillerMuffin]

Red is a deaf man at a symphony. He can hear the vibrations, but can't carry the tune.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Re: Re: Re: Outworn dogmas

Isn't he though? Probably can't balance his checkbook. But why should he. If it's out of balance it's that greedy capitalists banks fault. Right?

Hasn't a clue about real world economics. Never will have one.

Ishmael

That and he is out of balance. ~smiling~

 

[A Desert Rose]

Amazing.... he is debunked and he just kind of goes away..... ~chuckle~

 

[miles]

Most of the economic burden of taxes is doled out to the MIDDLE class, not the upper class because of tax breaks and loopholes. is why they made more and more.. however I say more power to em. if you can make it Go for it.

That is patently false. It's another big lie. It's class warfare propaganda. Don't believe it for a second. It simply isn't true.

 

[REDWAVE]

Desert Rose

Nonsense. Some jobs government contracts out to private business; some it does itself. Here in Las Vegas, for instance, the Clark County School District (CCSD) runs the schools. Statewide, the Nevada Department of Transportation (NDOT) maintains the roads. On the federal level, NASA runs the space program. Even when government does contract tasks out to businesses, that is no different from what private businesses themselves often do. On construction projects, for instance, the general contractor farms out the work to subcontractors.

 

[Sandia]

Who provides jobs for the middle class? Answer: the so-called upper class.

No, ADR, the working class supports the rich. It's work that creates goods and services, not capital. The rich consume the fruits of other people's labor - they don't produce it.

Aquila: the rich pay most of the taxes in the US, which is fair, since they have most of the money.

REDWAVE: The US is not a capitalist state, it has a mixed socialist/capitalist economy. Programs like Medicare, social security, unemployment, worker's comp., minimum wages, etc. etc. etc. are all socialistic programs, designed to prevent poverty and alleviate the exploitation of the poor by the rich. The mixed nature of the American economy is the reason for it's success.

I do believe though, that we are in a classic bust cycle -- and that the reason for it is the classic reason - there's been an excessive concentration of wealth in the hands of the wealthy. The wealth of the richest Americans has been increasing dramatically over the last decade or more, while the income of middle - and lower income workers has remained stagnant.

Ishmael, the idea that people are paid what they're worth is ridiculous. I think we've been through this before, but again: How much was the CEO of Enron worth when he took half a billion dollars out of the company while guiding it into bankruptcy? How much is a tort lawyer worth (your opinion) who sues McDonald's over hot coffee* and collects several million dollars out of the settlement? How about a boy-band singer who collects millions lip-syncing and swivelling his hips at thirteen year old girls? A teacher? A firefighter? A policeman? How about a private in the US Marines? Does he get paid what he's worth?

I'm not dissing capitalism here, I realize it's benefits. But romanticizing the system is dishonest.


____
***NOTE TO lavender: I know the McDonald's case is not as egregious as it seems. I'm just using it as an example. Don't sue me, Please!

 

[JazzManJim]

ON the whole "people are paid what they're worth" everyone seems to be missing the extremely obvious point.

In a Capatalist system, the one and only law is that of supply and demand. That goes for people's work skills as well. Skills that are rare get compensated better than those which are common. That's why a high-level professional athlete get such a large amount of money. He can do something that almost no one else can do. Migrant workers get next to nothing because their job skills are common as dirt.

Now there have been some things thrown into the system herre and there which can upset that, as can someone who gets into a position of great advantage where they can basically set their own compensation (such as in the case of Enron and GE). But when the system is left to run on its own, supply and demand rule.

 

[Lasher]

Interestingly enough Lenin wasn't a big fan of Communism either - at least while he was dictator of the Soviet Union.

During the Civil War he instituted a program called "War Communism" so that the economy and his government could continue to function. Surprisingly enough "War Communism" smelled a lot like Capitalism.

After the Civil War Lenin instituted what he called the "New Economic Policy" (NEP). NEP smelled an awful lot like Capitalism too, especially if you asked those fun-loving, land-owning Peasants that Stalin wanted us to call Kulaks.

Now Stalin was a fucking Communist with a capital "C". Just ask the Kulaks - if you can find one.

 

[REDWAVE]

The "Capatalist" system

I just love defenders of capitalism who are so stupid they can't even spell it correctly.

 

[JazzManJim]

Re: The "Capatalist" system

I just love defenders of capitalism who are so stupid they can't even spell it correctly.

Don't have a substantive argument, then?

Didn't think so.