Why capitalism doesn't and can't work

[A Desert Rose]

No, ADR, the working class supports the rich. It's work that creates goods and services, not capital. The rich consume the fruits of other people's labor - they don't produce it.

Aquila: the rich pay most of the taxes in the US, which is fair, since they have most of the money.

REDWAVE: The US is not a capitalist state, it has a mixed socialist/capitalist economy. Programs like Medicare, social security, unemployment, worker's comp., minimum wages, etc. etc. etc. are all socialistic programs, designed to prevent poverty and alleviate the exploitation of the poor by the rich. The mixed nature of the American economy is the reason for it's success.

I do believe though, that we are in a classic bust cycle -- and that the reason for it is the classic reason - there's been an excessive concentration of wealth in the hands of the wealthy. The wealth of the richest Americans has been increasing dramatically over the last decade or more, while the income of middle - and lower income workers has remained stagnant.

Ishmael, the idea that people are paid what they're worth is ridiculous. I think we've been through this before, but again: How much was the CEO of Enron worth when he took half a billion dollars out of the company while guiding it into bankruptcy? How much is a tort lawyer worth (your opinion) who sues McDonald's over hot coffee* and collects several million dollars out of the settlement? How about a boy-band singer who collects millions lip-syncing and swivelling his hips at thirteen year old girls? A teacher? A firefighter? A policeman? How about a private in the US Marines? Does he get paid what he's worth?

I'm not dissing capitalism here, I realize it's benefits. But romanticizing the system is dishonest.


____
***NOTE TO lavender: I know the McDonald's case is not as egregious as it seems. I'm just using it as an example. Don't sue me, Please!

I am guessing darling, that you do not work in the private sector. Wealthy companies produce jobs for people. The less money companies have (as in heavy taxes) the less money they have to pay employees so, they have to cut back or lay off people.

How do companies get wealthy? They provide goods or services that consumers purchase. If their products are substandard or not competitive in the market place, that company will fold.

Same is true of wages. If a company provides competitive wages, comparable with other companies, they will attract the best employees.

It's a market driven society that we live in. No one is romantising capitalism. Especially me. I personally find it to be the best system developed up to this point.

 

[LovetoGiveRoses]

Re: Outworn dogmas

People are not paid exactly what they're worth. Some are grossly overpaid, and many are underpaid. Many corporate CEO's have raked in huge compensation while their companies collapsed and their stock prices took a nosedive.

I suppose that we ought to ask you what everyone should be paid? In your opinion the free market is badly flawed, instead I guess we should leave it to you, eh? You go ahead and try to understand the intracies of what everyone is doing, and then go ahead and set the wages. LOL. What a crazy idea.

Did you miss me? I've been working too hard lately to play on lit.

 

[LovetoGiveRoses]

I am guessing darling, that you do not work in the private sector. Wealthy companies produce jobs for people. The less money companies have (as in heavy taxes) the less money they have to pay employees so, they have to cut back or lay off people.

LOL. I think he's a student and hasn't had a chance to join the economy an a meaninful way. So, am I correct Sandia?

 

[70/30]

I'm gonna sine your pitty on the runny kine

I'm not particularly upset today, however the person praising Reagan almost got me there. The powers that be (media especially included) in capitalist, semicapitalist, welfare, communist states, whatever try to get groups to lust, to be distracted, and to fight over insignificant things. Many people do menial labor and work very hard, heck just standing up for 8hours a day is noteworthy. Menial workers, management, strict socialists, and strict capitalists should have respect for the work others put in, many people that post on this board show little. Everyone needs everyone else. Management, do what you can to help out your workers. Don't compromise your integrity so you can get a BENZ CLK a year earlier while your workers are well under the poverty line. Menial workers watch/study the movie Pootie Tang and gain some personal control, be a role model, and/or follow a role model http://www.geocities.com/~polfilms/pootietang.html from The Political Film Society

"We learn that Pootie Tang’s father (played by Chris Rock) was a strict disciplinarian, who used a magic belt to outfight any challenger and passed his belt onto Pootie Tang before he died. In due course, Pootie Tang becomes a hero throughout the land because he is a cool cat. He discourages the youth of the land from eating fast food, drinking alcohol, and indulging in drugs.

However, the profits of Corporate America have been plummeting as Pootie Tang’s star has been rising. Accordingly, Dick Lecter (played by Robert Vaughan), CEO of Chicago-based Lecter Corporation, is unhappy because the youth of America is following Pootie Tang’s advice. Accordingly, Lecter tries to bribe Pootie Tang to provide product endorsements for Lecter Corporation’s unhealthy food. Pootie Tang refuses, so Lecter engages Ireenie (played by Jennifer Coolidge) to seduce Pootie Tang and rob him of his secret power. First, Ireenie seduces Trucky, who reveals that Pootie Tang’s secret power is in his belt. Then Ireenie seduces Pootie Tang and steals his belt. Just as Delilah made Samson weak by cutting off his hair, Pootie Tang is forced to sign a contract with Lecter. The good people of the land are disappointed, as Pootie Tang now supports all that he hitherto opposed.

Pootie Tang and Trucky even retreat to Greenville, Mississippi, to become farmers in order to escape the opprobrium. Soon, Trucky quits; farming is too much work for him. Then, all alone, Pootie Tang falls into a delirium from all the hard work, and the spirit of his father speaks to him from a cornstalk, urging him to return to Chicago to right the wrongs of the world, or at least those of Lecter Corporation.

Naturally, Pootie Tang follows his father’s advice, and vanquishes the evil Lecter. But the plot is not really what is fascinating about the story. What may be appealing to young African American filmviewers is that Pootie Tang may provide a role model for the youth - in the way he talks, how he walks, and the clothes he wears. The hilarious lines of the other characters are what makes Pootie Tang an uncartoonized replay of The Lion King, but this time the people support Pootie Tang because he is a democrat opposing the greed of Corporate America rather than the caste system and monarchy celebrated in The Lion King. Unfortunately, those who watch will tune into the humor, the patois, and the costuming, while tuning out the important message, because the plot is too silly for the film to be taken seriously. MH"

To those that haven't seen it, sorry for exposing the ending of the movie.

 

[REDWAVE]

Sandia

You're one of the few people to make an intelligent comment on this thread. Congratulations. Yes, the U.S. does have a mixed economy to some extent, or did at least. The reforms of the 1960's have all been undone by the post-'60's reaction. Eligibility for unemployment has been restricted so much that it does little good. Even among those eligible, many have now exhausted their benefits and are still unable to find work. (Good luck on finding a job in this economy-- it's damn near impossible!) Social Security and Medicare are about all that's left of the "welfare state," and the ruling class is trying to destroy them too. At any rate, Social Security provides a mere pittance, and is woefully inadequate. It should be called "Social Insecurity."

 

[A Desert Rose]

Re: Sandia

You're one of the few people to make an intelligent comment on this thread. Congratulations.

LMAO. You are too funny......

 

[Hot4Heels]

OK REDWAVE

Shit or get off the pot time. What feilds have you worked in. I hear a lot of Propaganda but little experience comming through.

 

[REDWAVE]

"Feilds . . . comming"

I'm a spelling tutor, H4H, and I see you also desperately need my services.

 

[Sandia]

I am guessing darling, that you do not work in the private sector. Wealthy companies produce jobs for people. The less money companies have (as in heavy taxes) the less money they have to pay employees so, they have to cut back or lay off people.

How do companies get wealthy? They provide goods or services that consumers purchase. If their products are substandard or not competitive in the market place, that company will fold.

Same is true of wages. If a company provides competitive wages, comparable with other companies, they will attract the best employees.

It's a market driven society that we live in. No one is romantising capitalism. Especially me. I personally find it to be the best system developed up to this point.

I'm self-employed.

Corporations get rich by paying their employees as little as possible while charging as much as possible for their products.

 

[Sandia]

LTGR: I've been out of school since '96. I have my own business.

 

[70/30]

Re: Sandia

Eligibility for unemployment has been restricted so much that it does little good. Even among those eligible, many have now exhausted their benefits and are still unable to find work. (Good luck on finding a job in this economy-- it's damn near impossible!)

I haven't looked close into it but GWB did extend unemployment recently, my brother was a "victim" of the dotcom collapse. He was salaried at 100 working perhaps 20 outta 52weeks a year. He lost his job but lived so LO-PRO that he had 85K saved after just 2years outta college (even with some heavy stock losses). He's been a lounge act for 16months getting some checks until recently. The economy (esp tech) compared to before is shit, he'd have to work 49weeks and make he'd be lucky to make half as much. Part of you should be glad the economy became more sensible, contracting programmers out for $200 an hour is fucking ridiculous-that money was definitely going to the wrong place.

 

[Sandia]

Hey, I like that new AV, Seventy. I can't really tell what it is though. Looks like modern art.

Don't get me wrong - I totally agree with Crysede on this: socialism doesn't work because it just doesn't account for people's greed, ie, self-interest.

Capitalism works - at least when it's adequately moderated - but it often produces unfair outcomes.

 

[70/30]

Hey, I like that new AV, Seventy. I can't really tell what it is though. Looks like modern art.

It's beck, http://www.beck.com/diskobox/album.php

PAPER TIGER

Just like a paper tiger
Torn apart by idle hands
Through the helter skelter morning
Fix yourself while you still can
No more ashes to ashes
No more cinders from the sky
All the laws of creation
Tell a dead man how to die

O deserts down below us
And storms up above
Like a stray dog gone defective
Like a paper tiger in the sun

Looking through a broken diamond
To make the past what it should be
Through the ruins and the weather
Capsized boats in the sea

O deserts down below us
And storms up above
Like a stray dog gone defective
Like a paper tiger in the sun

We’re just holding on to nothing
To see how long nothing lasts

O deserts down below us
And storms up above
Like a stray dog gone defective
Like a paper tiger in the sun

---Beck from the album "Sea Change"

 

[christo]

One of the great economic miracles of the 20th century came in Communist Russia during Stalin's reign. In a very, very short amount of time Stalin transformed Russia from a totally backward, agrarian nation into the most powerful conventional military machine on earth and an industrial powerhouse.

Of course, about 40 million people died to bring about this transformation, but, as Stalin himself so famously said, "One death is a tragedy. A million deaths is a statistic."

I think I prefer the social inequalities that often develop in capitalistic countries to the mass murder-driven economy of communism. Umm...yes, I have to say, I prefer capitalism.

But remember, corporations, those powerful engines of capitalism, are, by design, centrally-controlled and governed by fiat. Almost like...a Communist country.

I mean, General Electric doesn't take a vote of its employees and shareholders to decide whether they should build 1000 or 1500 jet engines this quarter. Jack Welch gathers a small group of managers, they figure out how many they should make, Welch gives an order to the head of the propulsion division, who gives an order to his underlings, and the 1500 engines get built.

True, GE is trying to fill the demands of the market, as opposed to creating demand (as happens in a communist economy), but capitalism is much more complicated than supply and demand. The idea that the market should be allowed to operate without any govermental supervision is wrong, as is the idea that no regulation means a more efficent, stronger economy. If you don't have rules, you have anarchy. The trick is, how many rules should you have? How intrusive?

Cycles of regulation and deregulation come and go just like boom and bust cycles. The Enron and WorldCom disasters never would have happened (or allowed to become so huge) had there been proper legislation governing financial reporting, conflicts of interest among stock analysts, and oversight of accounting firms who also do consulting work.

During the go-go nineties no one cared about rules, they wanted to make their 45% returns in the market. So there were no regulations, tremendous amounts of shit hit the fan, and now Congress is only too happy to belatedly pass boatloads of laws to shut the gate now that the horse is gone. I mean, the SEC is requiring CEO's to sign papers authenticating their earnings. Uh, you mean before CEO's WEREN'T required to post accurate reports about earnings?

People bitch about taxes and government, often with just cause. There is too much waste, too much inefficiency. That's what's shameful, the waste, because every dollar lost in pointless bureacracy is a dollar that could be used to renovate schools, provide health care to the elderly, or build aircraft carriers. But bureaucratic waste isn't limited to government, as anyone who's every worked for a large corporation can attest.

Redwave was right when he said that government has produced great things. The national highway system, the Apollo missions, the Manhattan project were all funded and run by the government. Government DOES produce these things. General Dynamics didn't just decide to start building F-15's in the hope that someone would buy them. The goverment decided it wanted a new fighter, looked over the bids from different aerospace companies, and picked the one they thought was best. Government created the demand and provided the funding. No government leadership, no sexy fighter planes. Or men on the moon. Or Head Start programs.

 

[A Desert Rose]

I'm self-employed.

Corporations get rich by paying their employees as little as possible while charging as much as possible for their products.

And do you pay employees? Do you pay health benefits? Do you pay workmen's comp? Do you pay federal income taxes on said employees? Do you have to provide and pay for improvements to please OSHA?

Or do you just pay yourself?

 

[Sandia]

Damn, Christo. You didn't leave me much to say. What are you moderator of?

 

[christo]

I'm the moderator of FUNKATASTIC CHILLATHRILLA PSYCHOPARTYBOOGIETOWN!!!!

And, for awhile, the Story Discussion Group...not quite as glamorous, huh?

 

[Sandia]

And do you pay employees? Do you pay health benefits? Do you pay workmen's comp? Do you pay federal income taxes on said employees? Do you have to provide and pay for improvements to please OSHA?

Or do you just pay yourself?

I have one quasi-employee, but she works on contract.

I do my own taxes, though, and i can tell you, they're a bitch.

 

[Sandia]

I'm the moderator of FUNKATASTIC CHILLATHRILLA PSYCHOPARTYBOOGIETOWN!!!!

And, for awhile, the Story Discussion Group...not quite as glamorous, huh?

I moderate the GB. It's a little known fact, but it's true.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Have any of you people run a business, complete with employees?

 

[Lancecastor]

Oh come on, you dont Moderate....you M O D E R A T E!

I moderate the GB. It's a little known fact, but it's true.

 

[Sandia]

Oh come on, you dont Moderate....you M O D E R A T E!

True, true.

Hey, is that your cabin on the pond? It looks cool.

***
ADR, what do you do for a living?

 

[A Desert Rose]

I am a graphic artist.

But I have experience owning a business complete with employees (over 60 of them) and what that entails.

 

[REDWAVE]

Capitalism was progressive

Some good comments there, christo. Capitalism has also done some great things, or at least it did early on. The introduction of machinery and assembly line techniques revolutionized the means of production, and vastly increased the amount of good and services produced. Capitalism represented a tremendous advance over feudalism and small scale production techniques, which preceded it. As Marx himself said, it rescued huge numbers of people from "the idocy of rural life." The building of trancontinental railways in the nineteenth centuries enabled people (well, at least those who could afford a railroad ticket) to traverse vast distances with an ease hitherto unheard of. Corresponding with scientific and technological advances, the early phase of capitalism saw numerous inventions-- the telegraph, the light bulb, the internal combustion engine, etc.-- which improved life for vast numbers of people.

However, early capitalism also had its dark side. Huge numbers of people were forced off the land, and they flocked into the new, rapidly growing cities, where the only work available for most of them was in the capitalists' factories. People worked twelve, fourteen hours a day, six or seven days a week, for bare subsistence wages. And the technological advances, while in many ways making life easier for people, also had negative side effects, mainly pollution and environmental devastation.

But as the saying goes-- that was then, this is now. Capitalism, which was originally progressive, has long since become reactionary. The concentration of the means of production, which should belong to all humanity in common, in private hands, has resulted in enormous dislocations and inequities, and has long since become counterproductive. Humanity needs to progress to the next phase of development-- socialism-- which will represent at least as great an advance over capitalism as it did over feudalism.

 

[A Desert Rose]

OH please..... Canada is replete with socialism. Go there. In the words of Lance, paraphrased, they are all inclusive up there and I am sure would love to have you......