Vows and commitments

[Ishmael]

I, as well as many others here, have seen those that have violatied their vows of marriage. Words with no meaning it seems. Vows without commitment.

Marriages end, but the way to end them is to end them without havijng to "switch side".

Our Armed Forces are under a vow, and oath. What does that mean? That if things aren't going our way we can switch sides? Or at least opt out?

So, what does an oath/vow mean to you? Is it in force only so long as it suits your best interest?

Ishmael

 

[Mia62]

I, as well as many others here, have seen those that have violatied their vows of marriage. Words with no meaning it seems. Vows without commitment.

You and I both know that the above statement is a total generalization. No one knows what happens within a marriage to drive someone to break those vows/commitments.

I am sure, though...that nobody enters into a marriage thinking that they will fuck it up. That is something that happens over time and takes BOTH partners to screw up.

 

[cybergirly]

For me a vow of marriage should be something that we work very very hard to keep. Something that doesn't end just because it's to much work for us to keep, but at the same time if you are miserable in that marriage there is only so much one person can do to fix it, especially if the other party isin't willing to work on it as well.

As far as the armed forces go, if you are active in the military it's a completely different vow than the implied one of being a citizen. As an active member of the military, you not only took an oath to support and defend your country, but it's your job as well. As a citizen, at least of the U.S. it's your right to disagree with what your government is doing, to try and change things for the better.

For me personally if I've given my word, my oath, I'm going to do everything in my power to keep it.

 

[sweet soft kiss]

I was an Army member and a wife... I never broke either of the vows I took on entering either institution...My marriage ended, but not because I broke a vow... Much more complex issues than that are what drove us apart...

edited to add: And I doubt I would ever have contemplated breaking my oath to the US, even when I might not have agreed with the objective. I was medical and my job was to help put people back together and ease suffering as best I could... so in the context of a war I might not agree with, I would be more needed than at any other time. so to cut and run at that time would not only break my oath, it would go against everything I try to be.

 

[Ishmael]

Re: Re: Vows and commitments

You and I both know that the above statement is a total generalization. No one knows what happens within a marriage to drive someone to break those vows/commitments.

I am sure, though...that nobody enters into a marriage thinking that they will fuck it up. That is something that happens over time and takes BOTH partners to screw up.

A vow is a vow and an oath is an oath. Those are NOT generalizatoins. They are HARD lines that are crossed. Excuses and rationalizations to the contrary.

However, my analogy was to see if there was a parallel, or an analogy between those that would betray their country and those that would betray their marriage.

Glad you were the first to respond.

Ishmael

 

[Mia62]

Re: Re: Re: Vows and commitments

However, my analogy was to see if there was a parallel, or an analogy between those that would betray their country and those that would betray their marriage.

Glad you were the first to respond.

I am actually a citizen of no country...I am American born but Canadian brought up...so to be honest I hold loyalties to both countries. I would not betray either one...and I would choose neither of them rather than betray one of them. I owe each country a lot.

 

[Calamity Jane]

Re: Re: Re: Vows and commitments

However, my analogy was to see if there was a parallel, or an analogy between those that would betray their country and those that would betray their marriage.

I hope there's not a parallel. I knew a lot of people when I worked for the Navy who were fucking just about everyone except their wives. If they're the people who would also betray their country, we're in a heap o' trouble.

 

[crysede]

To me, a vow is just the verbal expression of a commitment I already intend to keep - but the vow is purely symbolic, the commitment would still exist without it. I think some people get this backwards, and think that making a vow will somehow create a commitment. But it's not always lack of commitment that ends up breaking a vow, sometimes one vow has to be sacrificed for another.

As for the armed forces, that very much depends on how you define 'breaking a vow'. Clearly, those in the military have a duty to obey their commanders even if they dislike the commands - but there are limits beyond which other commitments would rightfully force soldiers to disobey even a direct order.

I'm not sure how your analogy is supposed to work exactly - are you talking about people in the US Armed Forces working as double agents? Or about deserters?

 

[curious2c]

Vows and Oaths. Simple names, difficult concepts at times to follow. I am not sure I understand your precept Ishmael. This idea of 'switch side'.

One thing that I always have remembered is that oaths and vows are made by humans for humans. They are expressly for humans to hold some sort of importance over one another.

In the case of marriage...well vows are spoken. The intent at the time is to follow through on them as best one can. Most people that get married feel that way at the time they echange their repsective vows. However, things can change. Time and experience can cause one to question and even break their vows. Much rides on being faithful in a marriage. Much also rides on being...well...sharing, loving, caring, and equal in a marriage.

Things can and do occur in relationships and marriages that cause the couple to grow apart. Little things can join together until ultimaltely, well the marriage is destroyed. Things like this happen and when one tries to correct the problems, it is so aparent that it takes two to make a marriage work and two to fix the problem. It is easy to point one's finger and say..."He was a cheating bastard.' or 'SHe was such a slut.' Fact is, unless you are privy to the entire, and personal story beihind the happenings of a marriage you can and will never know what pains and troubles each went through on their own.

One never hears the total truths of a split in a marriage since each would have to admit to things that they did to create or add to the problems to begin with. Kind of like shooting oneself in the proverbial foot. What you usually hear is how good I was and they were such low persons.

AS far as oaths in the armed forces...well I hope that the people who are in the services of our country do keep their vows and oaths. I rely on them to do so in order to protect the Constitution and what it stands for. I expect them to follow their oaths, even though the generals have at times not done so. By this I point out that we have gone to places to 'police' or have an 'action' without the declared war of congress. THis is unconstitutional in the extreme. If you read the Consititution you will see that congress HAS to declare war BEFORE we commit troops to a cause. This did not happen in Korea or Vietnam, or several other causes.

You see...the oaths that the service men and women take are to the CONSTITUTION not to the President, nor the Generals, nor the politicians. It is to protect and defend the Constitution.

As such you may see that I have some thoughts on this subject that may not go with what you are looking for. There is no blanket black and white on this. If there were, Korea, Vietnam, and other 'policing actions' would never have occured. Marriages would never end with cheating spouses, and life would be so much simpler.

Humans being what they are created vows and oaths to help bolster a belief that something is important in certain circumstances, in an extreme way. We did this because we knew the beast we dealt with and knew that we had to set a 'standard'. Vows and Oaths are like rules and laws. If one follows them totally...great. But...some believe that rules, laws, vows and oaths are made to be broken. It is the nature of things.

 

[Ishmael]

Vows and Oaths. Simple names, difficult concepts at times to follow. I am not sure I understand your precept Ishmael. This idea of 'switch side'.

One thing that I always have remembered is that oaths and vows are made by humans for humans. They are expressly for humans to hold some sort of importance over one another.

In the case of marriage...well vows are spoken. The intent at the time is to follow through on them as best one can. Most people that get married feel that way at the time they echange their repsective vows. However, things can change. Time and experience can cause one to question and even break their vows. Much rides on being faithful in a marriage. Much also rides on being...well...sharing, loving, caring, and equal in a marriage.

Things can and do occur in relationships and marriages that cause the couple to grow apart. Little things can join together until ultimaltely, well the marriage is destroyed. Things like this happen and when one tries to correct the problems, it is so aparent that it takes two to make a marriage work and two to fix the problem. It is easy to point one's finger and say..."He was a cheating bastard.' or 'SHe was such a slut.' Fact is, unless you are privy to the entire, and personal story beihind the happenings of a marriage you can and will never know what pains and troubles each went through on their own.

One never hears the total truths of a split in a marriage since each would have to admit to things that they did to create or add to the problems to begin with. Kind of like shooting oneself in the proverbial foot. What you usually hear is how good I was and they were such low persons.

AS far as oaths in the armed forces...well I hope that the people who are in the services of our country do keep their vows and oaths. I rely on them to do so in order to protect the Constitution and what it stands for. I expect them to follow their oaths, even though the generals have at times not done so. By this I point out that we have gone to places to 'police' or have an 'action' without the declared war of congress. THis is unconstitutional in the extreme. If you read the Consititution you will see that congress HAS to declare war BEFORE we commit troops to a cause. This did not happen in Korea or Vietnam, or several other causes.

You see...the oaths that the service men and women take are to the CONSTITUTION not to the President, nor the Generals, nor the politicians. It is to protect and defend the Constitution.

As such you may see that I have some thoughts on this subject that may not go with what you are looking for. There is no blanket black and white on this. If there were, Korea, Vietnam, and other 'policing actions' would never have occured. Marriages would never end with cheating spouses, and life would be so much simpler.

Humans being what they are created vows and oaths to help bolster a belief that something is important in certain circumstances, in an extreme way. We did this because we knew the beast we dealt with and knew that we had to set a 'standard'. Vows and Oaths are like rules and laws. If one follows them totally...great. But...some believe that rules, laws, vows and oaths are made to be broken. It is the nature of things.

If one can rationalize exceptions to the oathg/vow of marriage. An oath/vow spoken face to face to the love of your life, then how can you differentiate a vow/oath spoken to the constitution? An abstract form?

Ishmael

 

[curious2c]

People change. Love comes and goes in cycles. Sometimes the love does not survive the cycle.

You are the one who combined oaths with marriages and to the country. I pointed out the failures of said oaths and vows and the reasons why. THere are more distinct reasons than just what I listed, I just mentioned the most common ones.

As to the rationalization of exceptions the the differences between the contitution and a loved one.

The constitution is a rule of the land. It is for the common betterment of all and a societal outlook. A marriage vow spoken face to face is personal. There is a big difference in that to begin with.

When a couple are first in love and even during the marriage at the start...they loved each other or they would not have done the marriage thing to begin with. Then, with time, people can change for the worse. What was once love can become loathing. If the couple involved get help, sometimes they can withstand the pressures and get back on an even keel. Sadly, that does not happen.

Then there are the reasons that also cause divorces to happen. Abuse, verbal or physical, big ones. That said abuse breaks the vows just as if one cheats. Love, honor, cherish, in sickness and health. Few words with deep, deep meaning. It takes both, working at it hard to keep a marriage alive.

People change, needs change, wants change. If the couple do not stay 'fluid' then they build a resistance to change. It only takes one to resist...then a slow or sometimes fast spiral to the end begins. Oaths and vows are already thrown away by the time that occurs.

Sometimes there are hidden evils in one or the other of the couple. Hidden away until they break out after it is too late to prevent a 'vow' from being broken.

All in all...a human condition, human rules, and humans like to break the rules. A given considering how humans interact.

 

[Weevil]

So, what does an oath/vow mean to you? Is it in force only so long as it suits your best interest?

Ishmael

It depends on what the vow is. In my wedding vows I included the words "funktastic" and "supa fine"

 

[Lancecastor]

Re: Re: Vows and commitments

It depends on what the vow is. In my wedding vows I included the words "funktastic" and "supa fine"

In Ishmael's world, failure to be "supa fine" whould be a Very Serious Matter.

Please take this thread more seriously in the future.

Thank you.

Lance, on behalf of Ishmael.

 

[ksmybuttons]

You can divorce to get out of marriage and you can quit the armed services.

Outs both ways.

Just because you leave either one doesn't mean you need to "switch sides."

 

[Lancecastor]

You can divorce to get out of marriage and you can quit the armed services.

Outs both ways.

Just because you leave either one doesn't mean you need to "switch sides."

Things aren't always Black & White, are they?