Very touchy subject here..approach with caution.

[HarlotMinx]

My point remains that you were able to get married. Too many people have the view that the U.S. is suppoed to be entirely homogenous, with every state looking and feeling the same. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Um.... yes but her marriage license is not recognized here in Virginia, further more she is not afforded any of the benefits due to a married couple. For example, when she files her taxes she can't file as a married couple, if her partner is in a pension plan and dies then etoile wouldn't see a penny of it even if she also contributed her own money to the pension plan, she can't hold a child as a couple with her spouse. Unless their is a will, if her spouse dies she has no control over the funeral arrangements or ANY of the estate and she would have to suffer the tax penalties on that estate like a unmarried couple. Without power of attorney she can't help her spouse make any medical decisions.... yeah great she's married in CT.... she's married in name only as long as she lives anywhere else. She gets no Social Security, Medicare, and disability benefits through the government, for that matter most insurance plans will refuse to cover the other as a spouse nor can she take family leave or bereavement leave if her spouse is sick. No privileged marital communications and my favorite, she can't sue for the wrongful death of her spouse.

Their are some laws that should be state regulated and not homogeneous but marriage is a legal contract between two people with a set of benefits and very clearly should be federal. If non same sex marriages have federal recognition of benefits then so should same sex if it's recognized in even one state. Marriage should not be a states law and the only reason it's not federal is that the supreme court and the current legislation have been avoiding the topic like the plague. And when it comes to marriage, your right it's not religion per se that causes people to be intolerant of it, it's the people themselves but religion sure as hell is being used as the vehicle to unite people against same sex marriage and in this case IS an example of religion limiting someone's rights. The fact that religions are being used as a tax free means of moving million of dollars into anti homosexual advertising makes it involved.

 

[Samuelx]

Recently having great m2m sex with a regular guy I play with. In the afterglow we were chatting, about bi's, gay's and lesbians. He asked "How do they square that with the Bible?"

I don't have an answer. Do you?

There are a lot of gay and bisexual characters in the Bible. In the Old Testament, King David loved Jonathan, son of Saul, a bit more than he should have. Why doesn't anyone mention THAT ?

 

[Etoile]

Can Etoile get married? Yes, but she had to go to CT.

Like HM pointed out, my marriage means nothing. I know that, and my wife knows that. It's a piece of paper. I could have made it with crayons and it would have the same legal standing.

Until marriage is federally recognized - and it's not currently recognized for religious reasons, not political ones - then I am being denied rights. Period. In fact, HM barely scratched the surface (I'm sure those were from memory) because there are 1,138 federal rights that straight couples have but gay and lesbian couples are denied.

Can Etoile get married? Yes, but she had to go to CT, and it means nothing.

If a heterosexual couple went to CT to get married, and brought their paper back home, it would mean something. Mine doesn't. Therefore, inequality based on religious values.

 

[whywouldi]

If a heterosexual couple went to CT to get married, and brought their paper back home, it would mean something. Mine doesn't. Therefore, inequality based on religious values.

In this case, it has nothing to do with religious values, only with gay/lesbian discrimination...

 

[Etoile]

In this case, it has nothing to do with religious values, only with gay/lesbian discrimination...

What do you think is the cause of that discrimination? Everybody just decided one day? No. The Bible says it's wrong.

 

[Aviator1976]

Aviator, you don't get to decide what is oppressive and what is merely an "inconvenience." You are welcome to your opinions, but don't expect anyone to take them seriously.

And you don't need to defend religion to me. Religion has the upper hand at this time.

I thought my post made it very clear that it was simply my opinion that those issues were all matter of inconvenience. I never argued anything more than that.

If you read it as anything more than opinion, that is on you, not me.

 

[Aviator1976]

Um.... yes but her marriage license is not recognized here in Virginia, further more she is not afforded any of the benefits due to a married couple. For example, when she files her taxes she can't file as a married couple, if her partner is in a pension plan and dies then etoile wouldn't see a penny of it even if she also contributed her own money to the pension plan, she can't hold a child as a couple with her spouse. Unless their is a will, if her spouse dies she has no control over the funeral arrangements or ANY of the estate and she would have to suffer the tax penalties on that estate like a unmarried couple. Without power of attorney she can't help her spouse make any medical decisions.... yeah great she's married in CT.... she's married in name only as long as she lives anywhere else. She gets no Social Security, Medicare, and disability benefits through the government, for that matter most insurance plans will refuse to cover the other as a spouse nor can she take family leave or bereavement leave if her spouse is sick. No privileged marital communications and my favorite, she can't sue for the wrongful death of her spouse.

Their are some laws that should be state regulated and not homogeneous but marriage is a legal contract between two people with a set of benefits and very clearly should be federal. If non same sex marriages have federal recognition of benefits then so should same sex if it's recognized in even one state. Marriage should not be a states law and the only reason it's not federal is that the supreme court and the current legislation have been avoiding the topic like the plague. And when it comes to marriage, your right it's not religion per se that causes people to be intolerant of it, it's the people themselves but religion sure as hell is being used as the vehicle to unite people against same sex marriage and in this case IS an example of religion limiting someone's rights. The fact that religions are being used as a tax free means of moving million of dollars into anti homosexual advertising makes it involved.

I think you make a valid argument, and as I stated before I basically agree with your line of thought. I don't know how I can make that more clear.

But it does not change the fact that if it were that critical of an issue to Etoile, she could relocate to CT or any state that would recognize her marriage. She has options, but obviously it is more important to her to stay in VA.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I thought my post made it very clear that it was simply my opinion that those issues were all matter of inconvenience. I never argued anything more than that.

If you read it as anything more than opinion, that is on you, not me.

And I am stating that your opinion is invalid.

But it does not change the fact that if it were that critical of an issue to Etoile, she could relocate to CT or any state that would recognize her marriage. She has options, but obviously it is more important to her to stay in VA.

Just this one thing;

EVEN if Etoile were willing to uproot her entire life and move to CT;
Her marriage would still only be legal as far as state issues go. The feds would still not recognise her marriage.
That means; Federal taxes. Social security. Death and power of attorney rights. And so man y other things that are part and parcel of any heterosexual marriage, that, in order to cover them all a lawyer would have to write up a five hundred page long contract.

And no heterosexual couple ever has to worry about leaving the only state where they are legal.

 

[Programmer Cat]

Recently having great m2m sex with a regular guy I play with. In the afterglow we were chatting, about bi's, gay's and lesbians. He asked "How do they square that with the Bible?"

As a bi atheist, I don't have to care about the Bible. As far as I'm concerned, it's a collection of lame myths compiled by a committee of men -- not the word of $DEITY.

 

[Aviator1976]

And I am stating that your opinion is invalid.Just this one thing;

EVEN if Etoile were willing to uproot her entire life and move to CT;
Her marriage would still only be legal as far as state issues go. The feds would still not recognise her marriage.
That means; Federal taxes. Social security. Death and power of attorney rights. And so man y other things that are part and parcel of any heterosexual marriage, that, in order to cover them all a lawyer would have to write up a five hundred page long contract.

And no heterosexual couple ever has to worry about leaving the only state where they are legal.

So your opinion is that my opinion is invalid? Then we shall have to agree to disagree.

The bottom line is we live in a society where, in theory, the majority rules and our government is supposed to reflect the will of the people. People, and by extension our government, discriminate all the time for various reasons, religious or otherwise.

 

[Stella_Omega]

So your opinion is that my opinion is invalid? Then we shall have to agree to disagree.

The bottom line is we live in a society where, in theory, the majority rules and our government is supposed to reflect the will of the people. People, and by extension our government, discriminate all the time for various reasons, religious or otherwise.

Two things; If you believe what you have just said, why do you doubt that religion discriminates against GLBT?

second, there is a constitutional mandate to protect minorities from the tyranny of the majority. In practical terms, the only sector of our society that is, by tradition, exempt from that-- is religion. And religion is a big thing in the USA.

We are drowning in a sea of churches, ignorance, and Dan Brown novels. Your opinion is invalid because it's based on a very limited knowledge. Ignorant opinions are invalid.

 

[Aviator1976]

Two things; If you believe what you have just said, why do you doubt that religion discriminates against GLBT?

second, there is a constitutional mandate to protect minorities from the tyranny of the majority. In practical terms, the only sector of our society that is, by tradition, exempt from that-- is religion. And religion is a big thing in the USA.

We are drowning in a sea of churches, ignorance, and Dan Brown novels. Your opinion is invalid because it's based on a very limited knowledge. Ignorant opinions are invalid.

Well if you want to get personal, we can go there. You have no idea of my background, education, or knowledge of the subject. The one thing I can promise you is that ignorant is one thing I am not.

I do not believe "religion" discriminates against GLBT. Christianity teaches that homosexuality is a sin, but we are all sinners. It is people, not religion, that turn that into discrimination. It may seem like splitting hairs, but it is an important distinction.

I agree with you that individual liberties are the bedrock of our nation and should be protected. I feel you should be free to live with whomever you choose. I have lived in three foreign countries, and while there are things we can improve on, we do a pretty good jobat respecting personal rights.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Well if you want to get personal, we can go there. You have no idea of my background, education, or knowledge of the subject.

Quite true; a;; I know of you is what you show me here, via your words. Really, and I am sorry to say this, but you have not made a very good showing just yet.

The one thing I can promise you is that ignorant is one thing I am not.

I would reply with the classic writer's dicta;
Show, don't tell."

I do not believe "religion" discriminates against GLBT. Christianity teaches that homosexuality is a sin, but we are all sinners. It is people, not religion, that turn that into discrimination. It may seem like splitting hairs, but it is an important distinction.

Important distinction? Important to whom?

I agree with you that individual liberties are the bedrock of our nation and should be protected. I feel you should be free to live with whomever you choose. I have lived in three foreign countries, and while there are things we can improve on, we do a pretty good job at respecting personal rights

Yes, but only because we who need those rights are constantly on our guard, keeping the churches away from our legislation.

The entire campaign for proposition 8, which removed the right to same-sex marriage, was spearheaded by a wealthy recluse who wants the USA to reurn to a state of grace-- by the bible definition, and the Mormon church mustered all it's forces to; attempt to blackmail opponents, attempting to hide their supporters, and plain and simple lie to the public about what their bill entailed.

Now, YOU might say that "people not religion" was responsible, if you want. I have to notice that the people who were responsible were under a religious umbrella, and were claiming their religion as the authority for their bigotry.

And I won't go into the rights of women to control what happens inside their own bodies. Both birth control and abortion rights are constantly under attack.

 

[Etoile]

I do not believe "religion" discriminates against GLBT. Christianity teaches that homosexuality is a sin, but we are all sinners. It is people, not religion, that turn that into discrimination. It may seem like splitting hairs, but it is an important distinction.

Ah, now this is something very different from what you were saying before. Yes, people discriminate. But they discriminate in the name of religion.

As for "we are all sinners," I don't believe in the concept of sin. YMMV.

 

[angelkitty7888]

Well.... i've never really worried about the religious aspects of loving my SO....

<--- Ecclectic Pagan/other

i believe in many things and a major one is that you love who you love don't fret about gender and such just enjoy it! Another big thing (from Wicca) "Ever mind the rule of 3, what you do comes back to thee" so golden rule everyone that's all i ask!!

i live in MA and my gf and i haven't gotten married (almost 6 years together lol) but i don't know if/when we will.... all i can do is keep supporting the bills that keep it safe in MA and someday the whole US (probably not my lifetime)

the only thing about religion that bothers me right now is that abortion protesters love to walk around the CHILDREN'S park down the street from me with the posters of mutilated babies...... (it makes me so mad......)

 

[HarlotMinx]

<--- Ecclectic Pagan/other

Do you mean "eclectic pagan"? Urban dictionary says ecclectic means a hipster who tends to like indie rock.... I mean I guess you could be a hipster pagan...

By the way, I swear this isn't an attack against you specifically or even your beliefs just a thought that comes to mind about pagans. I feel like so many people take 'spirituality' in no specific source and confuse it with paganism. I remember asking a pagan which deity she worshiped fauna, attis, mithras, tellus matra, artemus, ceres, freyr, nerthus etc... She told me she worshiped the great female identity and was horrified at the idea of slitting a rabbits throat and spilling the blood onto the earth or slaying a crow. Admittedly I'm not pagan but I'd love to see some pagans recreate some of the ceremonies. I guess this comes up because i took a peak at a eclectic pagan site and they used norse runes but their was nothing in their talking about any type of norse traditions.... mostly magic and "the goddess". Okay, sorry for the thread hijacking, all done now.

 

[WSteven1]

Wow, I have never read a more erroneous interpretation of the Old Testament in my life.

Sure there was a cultural aspect to the Old Testament, but to argue the Old Testament law centered on health is simply crazy.

Aviator...Night_Jasmine was TOTALLY correct! I was Presbyterian via the Southern Baptist religion and am now Pagan and married to a fellow female Pagan (who knows I'm Bi, by the way). We were discussing this with a fellow Pagan who's a graduate of a Lutheran seminary and he corroborated this information.

ALSO, Matthew (will find the chapter) 31 - 40 talks about the Pharisees asking Christ what Laws or Commandments did He come to make the people follow. His response was this:
"Love the Lord YOUR God with all your heart, and all your mind, and all your spirit. And the second is likewise to that of the first, Love your neighbor as you love yourself. This, then fulfills the Law and the Prophets. Needless to say, the Pharisees were quite displeased with His answer as Christ had, once again, outwitted them at the Pharisees' own game.

Read the book Ten Things Your Minister Does Not Want You To Know (or he will lose his job)(

 

[Stella_Omega]

heh, Harlotminx.

I've been around pagans for years and years, one of my best friends is a genuine ordained Gardnerian Wiccan priestess. Even knowing that I am an atheist- She's roped me into many a ceremony, and made me take her classes on tarot and Astrology (neither of which i believe in, although the cards can be a very handy tool for straightening out your mind on something) and herbs and correspondences and all kinds of things.

I've ended up making most of her ceremonial tools altars, robes, -- I'm kinda a pagan emporium-- and I have done a lot of conventions and meetups with my wares. I usually join in whatever ceremonies are going, in a way that I could never bring myself to do with Xtianity.

I do appreciate the emphasis on balance, and the way most pagan groups place the female first-- mostly there is a goddess and her male consort, which is so obviously a reaction from the heavy heavy hand of patriarchal montheisms.

We were at a gathering, the day Bush declared war on Afghanistan. needless to say, the end of the meetup was pretty subdues, and almost everyone there wanted to be part of the closing circle. Among us were a couple of MTF trans, one drag queen, myself. Pagans are generally speaking, very accepting of people's self-identification-- especially since they all self-identify as pagans!-- but the couple handling ceremonies that weekend were elderly and early, and G, and as they were arranging the circle-- man-woman-man-woman-- they placed the trans among us in place in their cis gender, setting me between two men, and the two transwomen between cis women. When i said "I have a male spirit" (in approved paganspeak,) the guy looked confused and said "Well, that doesn't matter for the purpose." or something like that.

We were all of us so saddened that no one cared to make a fuss. What I remember mostly, was the winks and expressions of understanding that we each got from our fellow celebrants. And one of the men I was sandwiched between leaned over and whispered "I've always wanted to try being gay."

 

[HarlotMinx]

heh, Harlotminx.

I've been around pagans for years and years, one of my best friends is a genuine ordained Gardnerian Wiccan priestess. Even knowing that I am an atheist- She's roped me into many a ceremony, and made me take her classes on tarot and Astrology (neither of which i believe in, although the cards can be a very handy tool for straightening out your mind on something) and herbs and correspondences and all kinds of things.

I've ended up making most of her ceremonial tools altars, robes, -- I'm kinda a pagan emporium-- and I have done a lot of conventions and meetups with my wares. I usually join in whatever ceremonies are going, in a way that I could never bring myself to do with Xtianity.

I do appreciate the emphasis on balance, and the way most pagan groups place the female first-- mostly there is a goddess and her male consort, which is so obviously a reaction from the heavy heavy hand of patriarchal montheisms.

We were at a gathering, the day Bush declared war on Afghanistan. needless to say, the end of the meetup was pretty subdues, and almost everyone there wanted to be part of the closing circle. Among us were a couple of MTF trans, one drag queen, myself. Pagans are generally speaking, very accepting of people's self-identification-- especially since they all self-identify as pagans!-- but the couple handling ceremonies that weekend were elderly and early, and G, and as they were arranging the circle-- man-woman-man-woman-- they placed the trans among us in place in their cis gender, setting me between two men, and the two transwomen between cis women. When i said "I have a male spirit" (in approved paganspeak,) the guy looked confused and said "Well, that doesn't matter for the purpose." or something like that.

We were all of us so saddened that no one cared to make a fuss. What I remember mostly, was the winks and expressions of understanding that we each got from our fellow celebrants. And one of the men I was sandwiched between leaned over and whispered "I've always wanted to try being gay."

Ha! Well, and let me make this clear, I have no issue with pagans... I just find it amusing when a pagan tells me their practices date back thousands of years. I think paganism as it's practiced today is a fine thing, a free form expression of spirituality. I did however have a Wiccan get rather upset with me, she'd claimed that she was a member of a coven hundred of years old... I'd pointed out that Wicca didn't actually exist as a religion until the 1920s and that my grandfather was older than Wicca. I guess what I'm saying is that when someone tells me they're a pagan and has no knowledge of the religions that were considered pagan by the Christians, well I consider them a different type of pagan, more a product of our last century. I mean, the horned god and the three form goddess... they're a agglomeration of various concepts with links to slavic and greek roots but by no means ancient. Their is nothing wrong with worshiping them though..... I'm actually not entirely sure what made me bring this up in the first place.

Personally I'm quite atheist but my beliefs closely match Jainism with a few exceptions. While I have no belief in the divine I believe we have souls in a sense, more a collection of the characteristics that define us as unique, not a mystical essence but a collection of chemicals in our brain that make us distinct. I guess I even believe in an after life of a sorts since every time we interact with a person we leave behind a memory of us, and in tern change that person slightly. Maybe because I volunteer with gay youth programs a man grows up openly gay, or maybe my tutoring keeps a person off the street... or maybe nothing so life changing but it has an effect. And through those people we personally affect we affect others by the changes we make to each other, good or bad. So when we die everyone we touch, change, affect continue on and change those around us. Someone could affect an entire world, or just a family. I don't know, I consider it a atheist heaven of sorts; living on through the memories or actions of others. That's a small part of my own personal beliefs... a lot of it inspired through Jainism and a lot of it my own. I think most people feel atheists don't have any beliefs or we lack any understanding that extends beyond ourselves but I disagree, not believing in the divine doesn't make you immoral... just differently moraled.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Ha! Well, and let me make this clear, I have no issue with pagans... I just find it amusing when a pagan tells me their practices date back thousands of years. I think paganism as it's practiced today is a fine thing, a free form expression of spirituality. I did however have a Wiccan get rather upset with me, she'd claimed that she was a member of a coven hundred of years old... I'd pointed out that Wicca didn't actually exist as a religion until the 1920s and that my grandfather was older than Wicca. I guess what I'm saying is that when someone tells me they're a pagan and has no knowledge of the religions that were considered pagan by the Christians, well I consider them a different type of pagan, more a product of our last century. I mean, the horned god and the three form goddess... they're a agglomeration of various concepts with links to slavic and greek roots but by no means ancient. Their is nothing wrong with worshiping them though..... I'm actually not entirely sure what made me bring this up in the first place.

Appeal to the ages, very common! You know, over on AH some dude is claiming authority because his registration date is earlier than his opponents

Personally I'm quite atheist but my beliefs closely match Jainism with a few exceptions. While I have no belief in the divine I believe we have souls in a sense, more a collection of the characteristics that define us as unique, not a mystical essence but a collection of chemicals in our brain that make us distinct. I guess I even believe in an after life of a sorts since every time we interact with a person we leave behind a memory of us, and in tern change that person slightly. Maybe because I volunteer with gay youth programs a man grows up openly gay, or maybe my tutoring keeps a person off the street... or maybe nothing so life changing but it has an effect. And through those people we personally affect we affect others by the changes we make to each other, good or bad. So when we die everyone we touch, change, affect continue on and change those around us. Someone could affect an entire world, or just a family. I don't know, I consider it a atheist heaven of sorts; living on through the memories or actions of others. That's a small part of my own personal beliefs... a lot of it inspired through Jainism and a lot of it my own. I think most people feel atheists don't have any beliefs or we lack any understanding that extends beyond ourselves but I disagree, not believing in the divine doesn't make you immoral... just differently moraled.

Right with you, baby, you've expressed my own feelings perfectly!

 

[HarlotMinx]

Appeal to the ages, very common! You know, over on AH some dude is claiming authority because his registration date is earlier than his opponents

*snickers* you say that like it doesn't make perfect sense.

 

[angelkitty7888]

Personally I'm quite atheist but my beliefs closely match Jainism with a few exceptions. While I have no belief in the divine I believe we have souls in a sense, more a collection of the characteristics that define us as unique, not a mystical essence but a collection of chemicals in our brain that make us distinct. I guess I even believe in an after life of a sorts since every time we interact with a person we leave behind a memory of us, and in tern change that person slightly. Maybe because I volunteer with gay youth programs a man grows up openly gay, or maybe my tutoring keeps a person off the street... or maybe nothing so life changing but it has an effect. And through those people we personally affect we affect others by the changes we make to each other, good or bad. So when we die everyone we touch, change, affect continue on and change those around us. Someone could affect an entire world, or just a family. I don't know, I consider it a atheist heaven of sorts; living on through the memories or actions of others. That's a small part of my own personal beliefs... a lot of it inspired through Jainism and a lot of it my own. I think most people feel atheists don't have any beliefs or we lack any understanding that extends beyond ourselves but I disagree, not believing in the divine doesn't make you immoral... just differently moraled.

What you think makes sence to me

As for who i worship for a goddess? usually Artemis / Selene depending on the moon phase

i mean i'm a mish-mash pagan as in i take bit and pieces of wicca druidism and the such to create my own essentially... i don't do rituals other than the circle for meditation or tarot mainly because i have no need to... hard looking and door to door work will find me a job not praying / wishing for it... as stated in the princess and the frog "you go on wishing on stars, but remember that star can only take you 1/2 way! you have to work for what you want" (paraphrasing from memory... yes i'm a disney kid at heart )

i believe that all the gods are real in their own right as long as there is still one person to believe in them, but there is a sentience or presence above them keeping nature and humanity as balanced as it can... i believe it is 3 powers (two female, one male) keeping the other deities in line... (Can you imagine a fertility goddess getting along with a war god without that type of guidence? Or since Xtians God is so big in the world right now what about the greek/roman gods? you get the idea)

Above all i believe people as a whole are good... and of course the wiccan golden rule as i said before

 

[Stella_Omega]

i believe that all the gods are real in their own right as long as there is still one person to believe in them,

I love this!

not in any way that is complimentary to you, sadly-- but it's one of my favorite fantasy tropes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_Gods_(novel)

Above all i believe people as a whole are good... and of course the wiccan golden rule as i said before

This

 

[angelkitty7888]

I love this!

not in any way that is complimentary to you, sadly-- but it's one of my favorite fantasy tropes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_Gods_(novel)

This

Lol i haven't read the discworld series yet but i have it on good athority that it's good.... i've heard from a friend of mine Neil Gaimen writes a good novel about gods.... apparently similar to what i think lol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Gods

 

[captainkid28]

ahh, a question truelly reserved for catholics and newbis. to that I say..
1. god = invisiblle omnipotent being that lives in the sky, who's perfect but creates imperfect beings
2. religion= groups of old prueds and closet homos that feel the need to repress others to make themselves feel better about there own twisted lives, plus argue and cause the most amount of death and murder in gods name.


in the end love whomever, sleep with whomever, do you best to be able to look yourself in the mirror in the morning and be happy with what u see.