Very touchy subject here..approach with caution.

[Etoile]

That thing about celibacy cracks me up. Oh, it's okay to be gay, just don't have any sex! LOL.

 

[dicky911]

First, we should recognize the difference between homosexuality and homosexual acts. We are called to "love the sinner and hate the sin."

St. Paul is fairly clear about the matter of homosexual acts, some very "liberal" scholars will argue that his reference is only to sex with male prostitutes. (Romans 1:18-32, 1 Corinthians 6:12-20)

Also, going back to Leviticus 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female ; it is an abomination."


The Church teaches that homosexual people are called to a life of chastity, but we should also recognize that the Church teaches that all non-married folk are called to a life of chastity.

so how many people take this stuff seriously any more I wonder? - too many, probably!

 

[HarlotMinx]

First, we should recognize the difference between homosexuality and homosexual acts. We are called to "love the sinner and hate the sin."

St. Paul is fairly clear about the matter of homosexual acts, some very "liberal" scholars will argue that his reference is only to sex with male prostitutes. (Romans 1:18-32, 1 Corinthians 6:12-20)

Also, going back to Leviticus 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female ; it is an abomination."


The Church teaches that homosexual people are called to a life of chastity, but we should also recognize that the Church teaches that all non-married folk are called to a life of chastity.

Leviticus 18:22
First off, Leviticus is a set of Jewish ceremonial laws governing the levites (Jewish Priests)... they do not apply to Christians... or even really to Jews on the whole. This is further stated by Paul in Galatians and the tearing of the temple veil in Mark 15:38.

But even if you DID look at Leviticus and it DID apply to Christians then you'd still be misunderstanding the bible. The word translated as "abomination" is To'ebah in the original Hebrew. To'ebah is used to talk about foreign cult practices, it means the breaking of ritual law. And the quote itself comes after a verse talking about the cult of Moloch (you know the false god the Jewish people start worshiping when Moses is handed the commandments) who's priests practiced homosexual temple prostitution. In fact all the references in Leviticus discussing homosexuals is referring to temple prostitution of cults and specifically Moloch.

Corinthians 6:12-20
I'm assuming you're talking specifically about Corinthians 6:9-10? Well first off, this is a tricky quote which is mostly due to the words malakois and arsenokoitai. First off, most theologians will agree that malakois, the word interpreted as male prostitute or effeminate, refers to the Greek catamite(homosexual prostitutes). This isn't a liberal interpretation but a general one and you can see it in the New International Version, the footnote in the new American Standard, the NLT, the footnotes of the New King James Version, so on and so on.

The second problem is Paul's use of the word arsenokoitai. This is the word assumed to mean homosexual. The issue is it's not a real word, the Greek roots are man and bed but it's never been a Greek word just one Paul makes up. Even the Catholic church had translated this to mean masturbation up until the time of Luther and the reformation in which it became more politically profitable to assume it meant homosexual. I personally like to believe that it's in fact referring to the people who hire homosexual prostitutes in reference to the earlier catamite reference. If Paul had wanted to condemn homosexuals he'd have used the word pederast.

Romans 1:18-32
There is a lot to touch on here, the important thing is to look at it in context of the story being told. Keep in mind that Paul writes to the Roman Christians, in verse 21 - 23 we see they had turned back to the pagan ways. The term "vile affections" or "shameful lusts" does not refer to your everyday affections but specifically to the drug or wine induced lusts saw during pagan fertility cult orgy practices. He's talking about people engaging in practices unnatural to their nature, ie heterosexuals performing homosexuals acts under the influence.

 

[Aviator1976]

That's rather brilliantly put.

It always astounds me when i see people living thier lives with the goal of heaven in mind. Do this or dont do that because i want to get to heaven eventually. It's a bit mind boggling to me. Why suffer in the life you know you have for an afterlife that isnt promised? If you can be happy today then why not enjoy it?

Why pass up the certainty of happiness today for the possibility of happiness tomorrow.

That sort of reasoning puts us in the financial crisis we are today...greed.

Fuck tomorrow, live for today! Who cares if I can't make these mortgage payments a year from now!

 

[Aviator1976]

Leviticus 18:22
First off, Leviticus is a set of Jewish ceremonial laws governing the levites (Jewish Priests)... they do not apply to Christians... or even really to Jews on the whole. This is further stated by Paul in Galatians and the tearing of the temple veil in Mark 15:38.

But even if you DID look at Leviticus and it DID apply to Christians then you'd still be misunderstanding the bible. The word translated as "abomination" is To'ebah in the original Hebrew. To'ebah is used to talk about foreign cult practices, it means the breaking of ritual law. And the quote itself comes after a verse talking about the cult of Moloch (you know the false god the Jewish people start worshiping when Moses is handed the commandments) who's priests practiced homosexual temple prostitution. In fact all the references in Leviticus discussing homosexuals is referring to temple prostitution of cults and specifically Moloch.

Corinthians 6:12-20
I'm assuming you're talking specifically about Corinthians 6:9-10? Well first off, this is a tricky quote which is mostly due to the words malakois and arsenokoitai. First off, most theologians will agree that malakois, the word interpreted as male prostitute or effeminate, refers to the Greek catamite(homosexual prostitutes). This isn't a liberal interpretation but a general one and you can see it in the New International Version, the footnote in the new American Standard, the NLT, the footnotes of the New King James Version, so on and so on.

The second problem is Paul's use of the word arsenokoitai. This is the word assumed to mean homosexual. The issue is it's not a real word, the Greek roots are man and bed but it's never been a Greek word just one Paul makes up. Even the Catholic church had translated this to mean masturbation up until the time of Luther and the reformation in which it became more politically profitable to assume it meant homosexual. I personally like to believe that it's in fact referring to the people who hire homosexual prostitutes in reference to the earlier catamite reference. If Paul had wanted to condemn homosexuals he'd have used the word pederast.

Romans 1:18-32
There is a lot to touch on here, the important thing is to look at it in context of the story being told. Keep in mind that Paul writes to the Roman Christians, in verse 21 - 23 we see they had turned back to the pagan ways. The term "vile affections" or "shameful lusts" does not refer to your everyday affections but specifically to the drug or wine induced lusts saw during pagan fertility cult orgy practices. He's talking about people engaging in practices unnatural to their nature, ie heterosexuals performing homosexuals acts under the influence.

A great post, but you are missing the forest for the trees. You concentrate on a few minor examples using disputable Greek words, but miss the greater point.

Throughout the entire Bible, both New and Old Testaments, marriage is talked about as a holy institution ordained by God. Every reference to marriage in the Bible has it in a male/female context. Without exception.

That says something.

 

[SexyLatina19]

That sort of reasoning puts us in the financial crisis we are today...greed.

Fuck tomorrow, live for today! Who cares if I can't make these mortgage payments a year from now!

You're absolutely right, some people don’t plan for their futures and it does leave the country in a financial crisis , as you say (taking into view how our country is at the moment I don’t think I’d disagree with that... but then you have to think of how long the war has been going on and how much money has been poured into it, not great future planning there but that's not what I’m getting into *this is me staying on subject*). But you're bringing something up that we weren’t talking about. We're talking about same sex relationships and it's standing in religion, mainly as it pertains to Christianity and the Bible. My financial status or future, or anyone else's, was never up for debate here.

We've been talking about some people not living a life that is probably right for them (same sex relationships, see how it fits) because they're too afraid they're going to hell.

This country is at this current moment $12,805,828,902,071 (and it's climbing each second) in debt and it has absolutely NOTHING to do with the fact that I am, or anyone else is, gay (which is a word I’m not a fan of but oh well).

 

[Stella_Omega]

A great post, but you are missing the forest for the trees. You concentrate on a few minor examples using disputable Greek words, but miss the greater point.

Throughout the entire Bible, both New and Old Testaments, marriage is talked about as a holy institution ordained by God. Every reference to marriage in the Bible has it in a male/female context. Without exception.

That says something.

Are you sure about that?

 

[HarlotMinx]

A great post, but you are missing the forest for the trees. You concentrate on a few minor examples using disputable Greek words, but miss the greater point.

Throughout the entire Bible, both New and Old Testaments, marriage is talked about as a holy institution ordained by God. Every reference to marriage in the Bible has it in a male/female context. Without exception.

That says something.

A) I'm replying specifically to specific quotes so of course I'm focusing on specific examples.

B) I'm not talking about marriage, I'm talking very specifically on homosexual relations and not same sex marriage.

C) I always feel it's presumptuous of Christians to try and force others to behave under their religious morals. If you think god forbids gay marriage... well then the solution is simple... don't have christian churches marry same sex couples and leave it at that. Quite honestly, Christians who try and force their morals (not all Christians mind you) on others quite honestly are just the same as Muslim fundamentalists*.

*Now before someone gets all riled up I'm not comparing Christians to terrorists, I'm not referring to that specific sub group at all but the movement as a whole and I'm only making that comparison to the Christians who try make their moral code apply to others.*

 

[haurni]

Throughout the entire Bible, both New and Old Testaments, marriage is talked about as a holy institution ordained by God. Every reference to marriage in the Bible has it in a male/female context. Without exception.

There are also a lot of things that change through out the bible. The entire concept of the deity evolves (yes, evolves - love that word in this context) from that of a brutal tribal god who tells his people to kill all the men and rape all the women in the conquered regions to Jesus' idea of a lovng god who frees people from artificially-imposed legalistic constraints (like, oohhh, restrictions on same-sex marriage, maybe?). At the very least, this means that our understanding of god changed over the 600-odd years between the writing of the Old and New Testaments. Certainly our understanding of "God's" word has changed in the two thousand years since then, for if it hadn't then we wouldn't have all of these different churches and sects, now, would we? So, either we as humans have no fucking clue what god wants, in which case why bother listening to the thousand different interpretations of "his" word, or... perhaps... he doesn' even exist! And if that's the case, it's up to us to behave rightly and morally and responsibly to our fellow humans, the planet, and so on. AY-men! (and women!)

To wax somewhat gruesome, Occam's Razor cuts God's throat. But if God doesn't exist, is deicide a crime?

 

[Etoile]

Throughout the entire Bible, both New and Old Testaments, marriage is talked about as a holy institution ordained by God. Every reference to marriage in the Bible has it in a male/female context. Without exception.

That says something.

Not to the 4 billion non-Christians in the world, it doesn't. People seem to forget that Christianity is only one of the religions.

 

[jennisecolin]

I square that in two ways.

1) We are all sinners and one sin isn't greater than another. T

2) Every place homosexuality is discussed in the Bible it is talked about in terms of loose promiscuous sex. There is no mention at all about loving and consensual homosexual relationships being bad. In fact Jesus healed a Centurions male lover and remarked at the faith the Centurion had.

Now what we do here is not holy. Its most likely sin. But see #1.

 

[jennisecolin]

Throughout the entire Bible, both New and Old Testaments, marriage is talked about as a holy institution ordained by God. Every reference to marriage in the Bible has it in a male/female context. Without exception.

That is a denominational interpretation and avoids historical context.

 

[soleilswag]

I'm very devout in my belief that there are many paths to God (or whatever the hell you want to call it ), and if gay male sex brings you to enlightenment...or God...or Buddha...or a higher plane...then rock on, brother.

Don't let one book dictate any damn thing.

 

[Etoile]

I'm very devout in my belief that there are many paths to God (or whatever the hell you want to call it ), and if gay male sex brings you to enlightenment...or God...or Buddha...or a higher plane...then rock on, brother.

Don't let one book dictate any damn thing.

Or from an atheist's perspective, there are many paths to happiness, and if gay sex makes you happy...go for it!

 

[naughtyinsilk]

As a practising witch, my spiritually has no conflicts in my opinion with my sexual practices.

And unless a particular god or goddess comes to me in person and complains, the way I feel about the subject is going to remain.

at the end of the day, we exist without gods and goddesses but they do not exist without our belief, therefore they can only disapprove, if we believe they do.

 

[Stella_Omega]

As a practising witch, my spiritually has no conflicts in my opinion with my sexual practices.

And unless a particular god or goddess comes to me in person and complains, the way I feel about the subject is going to remain.

at the end of the day, we exist without gods and goddesses but they do not exist without our belief, therefore they can only disapprove, if we believe they do.

Awesome concept!

 

[Aviator1976]

There are also a lot of things that change through out the bible. The entire concept of the deity evolves (yes, evolves - love that word in this context) from that of a brutal tribal god who tells his people to kill all the men and rape all the women in the conquered regions to Jesus' idea of a lovng god who frees people from artificially-imposed legalistic constraints (like, oohhh, restrictions on same-sex marriage, maybe?). At the very least, this means that our understanding of god changed over the 600-odd years between the writing of the Old and New Testaments. Certainly our understanding of "God's" word has changed in the two thousand years since then, for if it hadn't then we wouldn't have all of these different churches and sects, now, would we? So, either we as humans have no fucking clue what god wants, in which case why bother listening to the thousand different interpretations of "his" word, or... perhaps... he doesn' even exist! And if that's the case, it's up to us to behave rightly and morally and responsibly to our fellow humans, the planet, and so on. AY-men! (and women!)

To wax somewhat gruesome, Occam's Razor cuts God's throat. But if God doesn't exist, is deicide a crime?

That post shows that you have a complete lack of understanding of the story of the Bible and how the last 2000 years has shaped contemporary Christianity.

 

[Aviator1976]

Not to the 4 billion non-Christians in the world, it doesn't. People seem to forget that Christianity is only one of the religions.

Agreed. But what does that change?

 

[Aviator1976]

That is a denominational interpretation and avoids historical context.

How do you figure?

 

[Aviator1976]

As a practising witch, my spiritually has no conflicts in my opinion with my sexual practices.

And unless a particular god or goddess comes to me in person and complains, the way I feel about the subject is going to remain.

at the end of the day, we exist without gods and goddesses but they do not exist without our belief, therefore they can only disapprove, if we believe they do.

Interesting, but I disagree.

 

[Aviator1976]

A) I'm replying specifically to specific quotes so of course I'm focusing on specific examples.

B) I'm not talking about marriage, I'm talking very specifically on homosexual relations and not same sex marriage.

C) I always feel it's presumptuous of Christians to try and force others to behave under their religious morals. If you think god forbids gay marriage... well then the solution is simple... don't have christian churches marry same sex couples and leave it at that. Quite honestly, Christians who try and force their morals (not all Christians mind you) on others quite honestly are just the same as Muslim fundamentalists*.

*Now before someone gets all riled up I'm not comparing Christians to terrorists, I'm not referring to that specific sub group at all but the movement as a whole and I'm only making that comparison to the Christians who try make their moral code apply to others.*

A) I understand you were replying to a post, but I expected if you had more passages to support your argument you would have mentioned them. YOu failed to mention any other passages so I assumed you were resting your argument on those you included. That may have been a faulty assumption on my part.

B) Fair point. But because a majority of Christian denominations teach that sex outside marriage is immoral, your point is pointless. Hemosexual or heterosexual, sex is only supposed to exist in a marriage.

C) How are Christians forcing you to do anything? That is an honest question and I would like an honest answer. Take a moment to think about it.

 

[Stella_Omega]

C) How are Christians forcing you to do anything? That is an honest question and I would like an honest answer. Take a moment to think about it.

Christians do not force me to do anything, personally.
Nor can Christian morality ever stop me from doing what I want to do.

But that's because I am willing to battle the force of cultural assumption, day in, day out. Your religion tries to dictate to the entire world-- as your point b) makes so abundantly clear, just for starters.


How do you figure the answer ought to go? That's an honest question. Take a moment to think about it.

 

[emap]

Stella you have heard of the dead horse right? You are trying to argue with the owner of the dead horse.

I am going to put this simply, until round about the 70's sometime homosexual men and women were not cared about, if they made a pass they were simply told sorry no sometimes they were beat up or tried to be beat up. If two soldiers were caught engaging in homosexual acts they were dishonorably discharged which tended to follow them around for life. It was not until the 70's sometime that people actually started saying hey wait there are guys fucking guys we don't want that, the women can fuck each other so long as we can watch but the men doing men have got to go.

Why was man on man sex not cared about until the 70's if it is clear as day deviled in the bible? I am wondering this I am. The salem witch trials were hunting witches, sometimes they would make mention of homosexual acts in the records, not often and it was never a selling point of stoning the witch. I am serious here, find me something before let's say the 50's where a priest or a christian religion actually out and out says, no homosexuals they are going straight to hell.

Find me that, and I may actually stop caring that every mass they bring along baskets to put money in for no particular reason.

 

[Stella_Omega]

It's simple, emap, the more gays win basic rights, and become visible, the more people know and hate that.

man on man sex was definitely cared about before the 70's. It was cared about so much that men stayed deeply hidden in the closet for fear of their lives. To be outed was shameful and could drive a man out of his town forever.
here's some history

and here's some highlights;

In the forties, the nazis made homosexuals wear a pink triangle and sent them to the concentration camps.

In 1950, two hundred government employees were fired on suspicion of being gay.

Later that decade, Alan Turing, a mathematical genius and war hero, killed himself after being sentenced to chemical castration to solve his "incurable homosexuality."
There were laws in many states forbidding bars to serve alcohol to gay men.

In 1969 The Stonewall riots brought the nation's attention to the fact that gay men exist, and as soon as people figured that out, they reacted with homophobia.

Ever since, the hatred of the general public has gone along in lockstep with the extension of gay rights.

 

[emap]

I knew it has been a legal problem Stella, I am saying since he has been so beloved of his bible and how it has always said that homosexuals are wrong that he should find a church or priest who has said it is wrong before the 50's or so.

Laws are written not so much by the people as a few people at the top who may or may not get a letter asking for it. Many of the sex laws on the book I am pretty sure are there because the person who wrote it either did not get a pass made on them but their friend did or they were not getting say anal sex and friends were.