Very touchy subject here..approach with caution.

[HarlotMinx]

I consider myself a moral person because I think it's wrong to kill other people, not because the Old White Man In The Sky said not to kill other people.

Yes, that would be what I was talking about. internal morally enforced people versus external morally enforced people.

 

[Stella_Omega]

That's like saying the American people ARE the US government.

yeah, supposedly that's true, too.

I mean, the reason their is a difference is that the average christian follows what they're told to believe. A lot of people equate a priest to the same level of trustworthiness as a police officer. They're looking at the leaders as authority figures so a certain amount of blindness is present. Also, many churches capitalize on humans natural tendency to assume things we don't understand are wrong in some way.

Yes to all of that!

Guns don't kill people, bullets kill people?

Guns don't kill people, the round hole in the middle of the gun kills people?

I have stared down the barrel of a gun-- it was completely accidental, only momentary, and I have never forgotten it.

 

[whywouldi]

Guns don't kill people, the round hole in the middle of the gun kills people?

I think it's the hole in the middle of the person that kills ...

 

[SexyLatina19]

Recently having great m2m sex with a regular guy I play with. In the afterglow we were chatting, about bi's, gay's and lesbians. He asked "How do they square that with the Bible?"

I don't have an answer. Do you?

I'm not going to respond to anyone's posts because that's pointless and a bit rude to attack someone's beliefs. What good would it do me to argue with any one person on what they believe anyway. To each his own but as far as I am concerned i dont think you can square it away with the bible, if that's what you're looking to do.

Now if you guys could just indulge me and follow my ranting for one moment I promise i'll make my point...

Leviticus 11-12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

Leviticus 20-9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

Leviticus 20-13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

When it comes to the bible people like to pick and choose what deserves to be followed. So what's the difference here between cursing your mother or father and sleeping with someone of the same sex (although technically it only talks about male homosexuality, guess us lesbians are safe )? The bible says both are offenses punishable by death. You dont see people picketing to have teenagers condemned for cussing their parents out so why hold protests to condemn people who are homosexual?

I like to think about it logically, the bible says both homosexuality and the eating of shrimp, lobster, crab, and oysters are both abominations. You dont see people asking to have their shrimp cocktails squared away with the bible. So why bother, i think?

It's all a bit trivial. lol Believe what you want, sleep with whomever you want, and be happy the best way you can. At the end of the day being happy is all that matters.

Okay i'll stop now.

 

[haurni]

Leviticus 11-12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

I like to think about it logically, the bible says both homosexuality and the eating of shrimp, lobster, crab, and oysters are both abominations. You dont see people asking to have their shrimp cocktails squared away with the bible. So why bother, i think?

If you're Jewish, that shrimp cocktail is a problem. But St. Paul said something along the lines of how Jesus had abolished the written law of the Jews (Colossians 2:13-15), except he didn't give a list of specific items that were repealed. So we can probably toss out all of Leviticus, in which case we can ignore that whole bit about a man lying with a man! Or with his sister... his mother-in-law... his sheep...

 

[dkili]

hello

Fuck religion. There is no hell, and no afterlife. So make love and pleasure happen in the life you have right now.

And can you tell me why we are living if there is no hell and after life???

 

[angelkitty7888]

And can you tell me why we are living if there is no hell and after life???

just because there isn't an afterlife doesn't mean there isnt something when we die... i think we take everything we've thought and learned in our lives and bring it back to the planet when we dissapate (goddess is earth in my mind more than anything) so we live to further the planet's knowledge and feeling then we are reborn to learn more and bring more back

to understand more of my view on afterlife i say watch Final fantasy: Spirits within... good movie deals well with the balence of self and nature killer cgi too

 

[haurni]

And can you tell me why we are living if there is no hell and after life???

As an atheist, I don't believe in god, the soul or an afterlife. In fact, we are all just insignificant specks of dust as far as the universe is concerned. However, we are social organisms living in a social network, and what we do in the world affects those around us, for good or ill. We live on, in a sense, in the memories of those we have touched during our lives, and we are remembered by how we acted during our lives. Your heaven or hell is your life now, so you may as well do the best you can to enjoy it. And because everyone else is in exactly the same boat, it's a better thing all around to make other people happy than it is to fuck them over.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Do not unto others as you would not have done unto you.

"Life is like a sewer - what you get out of it depends on what you put into it."
~ Tom Lehrer

 

[Stella_Omega]

And can you tell me why we are living if there is no hell and after life???

You mean the only reason to be alive right now is so that you can be alive some more later?

I have never understood this point of view. You are alive right now. That's all the 'why' you need. Why is an afterlife a better 'why' than this life is?

What do you get for being good in the afterlife-- a second afterlife?

 

[SexyLatina19]

You mean the only reason to be alive right now is so that you can be alive some more later?

I have never understood this point of view. You are alive right now. That's all the 'why' you need. Why is an afterlife a better 'why' than this life is?

What do you get for being good in the afterlife-- a second afterlife?

That's rather brilliantly put.

It always astounds me when i see people living thier lives with the goal of heaven in mind. Do this or dont do that because i want to get to heaven eventually. It's a bit mind boggling to me. Why suffer in the life you know you have for an afterlife that isnt promised? If you can be happy today then why not enjoy it?

Why pass up the certainty of happiness today for the possibility of happiness tomorrow.

 

[Esperanza_Hidalgo]

Fuck! Why am I posting this?

I have read this thread almost daily since its inception, and I cannot speak of things as many of you do. I do not have the background or knowledge to add much. But I will add what organized religion did to me, with the caveat that I loathe much of what some experiences with religion does to people. Many very good and intelligent religious leaders are well meaning. I think many are dead wrong, but who am I to judge what they choose to believe? (I am trying to not paint all religion with a single brush--this is my viewpoint, and my very jaded experience) I can't help but hate certain organized religions. Yes, HATE.

Organized religion fucked me up for much of my teen years.
*****
In walks 12-year-old girl. She figures out she is different, the girls make her wet, and she likes to get spankings. She sits in the pew at church, the pew with her family name on it. She believes in God, heaven, hell, and that she is a sinful abomination. The firebrand Baptist preacher said all who are homosexual are evil personified. Preachers do not lie, that is what she was taught to believe and never question. Why would she even question? She was going to hell and a sinner.

She lives for many years with deep guilt, terrible conflicts and depression. She seeks satisfaction in sex, mainly masturbation and fantasy with girls, and other extreme methods associated with pain. She is fucked, bound for a hell on earth. It also caused this girl to be such a pleaser. The one who makes everybody happy by whatever they want. This was guys or girls. It didn't matter, as long as she pleased. She was a slut.

College was freedom, and she went crazy, fucking anything and everything she could seduce. It almost killed her, but she found rescue in two friends. A lover who loved the little fucked up lesbian, and the friend who decided to counsel her, teach her to meditate, and calm her tortured soul. Months passed, she was at an impasse, but she starts to realize she was never the problem, never the issue. The views of certain members of this world are the issue. She was told about one million times by her lover and her mentor, "You are not evil." She finally almost believes it.
******
I was lucky, and this has made me hate much of what organized religion has the potential to do, which is ruin what it is meant to embrace. And much of it is based upon such lies!

I refuse to believe and accept this evil, so yes, I have a very narrow and closed mind at this point in my life regarding God and religion. I am angry! And might be until the day I die. But I will not be bitter, like I said, I am lucky, many just choose to commit suicide, or kill themselves through drugs, or live a life of misery.

I turned out okay after all of that shit, and I am almost happy, still slutty, but a happy slut now-- embracing my enjoyment of sex, and crazy in love with the orgasm, toys, clits, and the occasional infliction of luscious pain from a loving hand.

What do I believe now? I will say it. It is not based in any scientific mumbo jumbo, I aint got da brain fer it.

But WTF, free country? Maybe? IDK

our heaven is the net effect we leave on improving the world. When we die, we are dead, end of story, or is it? In a way we live on. If we have offspring, those offspring bear our genetic markers as well as out personality traits, so in that sense we live on.

If during our lives we have improved others in some way, small or large, we live on.

When we die, the dust of our body serves to feed the earth, we live on.

I find the concept of a God to serve as our reason for being so hard to fathom, yet do not wish ill of you if that is what you choose to believe. You are wrong, but you may believe as you wish. We all choose to believe in something, my choice is not the God of the bible, or organized religion, but rather in being a good person, and trying to leave legacy (live on) through good works, and the babies I hope to have some day. Who knows, maybe something I write might help one person, and that one-person bears a child who is wise, and that wise child discovers the cure for cancer. You just never know how one’s life can affect the world. Kinda Pollyanna, I know, but that is what I choose to believe.

I will enjoy my time on this planet by exploiting the pleasure of sex. God would not care for that, because I plan on having sex with many women before I die, and not all of them will be my wife, in fact, we intend to enjoy other women together when the time comes (it has not yet). It seems ridiculous that a God would give us this ripe clit between our legs if it was not intended for the designed purpose. A clit only serves one purpose, which is for pleasure.

You may find this appalling due to your religious sentiments. I do not care. It is what I believe. I used to have the same baggage, and it only served to stymie what I am, and that further limited whatever positive affect I may have on the world. I will share this poem, which expresses it in a not so nice way.


http://esperanzahidalgo.smugmug.com/Poetry/Poetry/Imaqueertolit/828253372_cLFj4-L.jpg

May your day and life be peaceful,

Espie

 

[Etoile]

She lives for many years with deep guilt, terrible conflicts and depression.

I hate that shit. Giving people such horrible guilt is unforgivable, IMO. I realize a lot of people are okay with their church telling them what to think and how to feel, but I'm not. Church should be a supportive environment, not something that makes you feel terrible. Especially with children, who are unable to understand that there are alternatives. Children are usually indoctrinated into their parents' religion, and go through years of agony when who they are conflicts with what they've been taught.

All of which is to say, I'm sorry you had to deal with that. I hate that part of organized religion. Making people feel bad should never be part of the deal.

 

[SexyLatina19]

She lives for many years with deep guilt, terrible conflicts and depression.

**********

I have so many issues with many organized religion besides the hypocracy (it's okay for priests to rape little boys and girls but it's not okay for me to love a woman) it's crazy. But how about the baptism of infants. What sins has a newborn commited against god... oh no wait we're cleansing the child of original sin. What brilliant thinking.

 

[srlmort]

SO well said Esperanza

Although I am married and bicurious I totally agree with everything you said.

It is totally wrong for people to force their morality on others. WTF? Everyone has the right to fuck who they want! ENJOY, don't feel guilty!

 

[haurni]

But how about the baptism of infants. What sins has a newborn commited against god... oh no wait we're cleansing the child of original sin. What brilliant thinking.

I wasn't baptized until I was almost a teenager, and I still like to say that I have 12 years of original sin.

I've moderated my views on organized religion somewhat over the years, but in general, I can't help but agree with what Esperanza says. It benefits certain people and it harms others - overall, I think it causes more problems than it helps, but it's built into the human mind and you can't make it go away. Those who don't need it, I think, are on the whole better off than those that do.

A friend of mine once said to me "Catholicism is a great religion to grow out of".

 

[SexyLatina19]

I wasn't baptized until I was almost a teenager, and I still like to say that I have 12 years of original sin.

I've moderated my views on organized religion somewhat over the years, but in general, I can't help but agree with what Esperanza says. It benefits certain people and it harms others - overall, I think it causes more problems than it helps, but it's built into the human mind and you can't make it go away. Those who don't need it, I think, are on the whole better off than those that do.

A friend of mine once said to me "Catholicism is a great religion to grow out of".

That's very true in my opinion. Those who need it are dependent on it and that's where the infallibility of it comes into place. People who are dependent on it cant see that there are errors on some of it and i think that's very dangerous.

I can second your friend's sentiment, Catholicism is a great religion to grow out of.

 

[RyeandGingerAyle]

Nice -I'm really enjoying this discussion

Have all the believers dropped off? What a pleasure to read so many passionately rational (in my judgment) statements on organized and disorganized religion. When I reached the age of twelve in the mid-fifties and realized I didn't buy into the guff about eternal life and heaven being available if I believed in the god Jehova - the same claim made for Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny - I found my friends and relatives almost universally so horrified they refused to accept my seriousness or the validity of my thought processes.

These days...not so much. Rave on, gentle souls.

 

[SexyLatina19]

Have all the believers dropped off?

I dont think that because I dont believe in organized religion that I'm not a believer. I just dont believe what everyone else does. What do i believe? Whatever makes me feel that day. LOL

This is a cool thread isn't it?

 

[Esperanza_Hidalgo]

I hate that shit. Giving people such horrible guilt is unforgivable, IMO. I realize a lot of people are okay with their church telling them what to think and how to feel, but I'm not. Church should be a supportive environment, not something that makes you feel terrible. Especially with children, who are unable to understand that there are alternatives. Children are usually indoctrinated into their parents' religion, and go through years of agony when who they are conflicts with what they've been taught.

All of which is to say, I'm sorry you had to deal with that. I hate that part of organized religion. Making people feel bad should never be part of the deal.

I appreciate your kind words. It is funny how our childhood affects us. To this day I want to pray ritualistically, and be forgiven of my sins. It is so easy--all you do is ask. Then I think, What sins? What is so wrong with me?

And there is no one to forgive me anyway! We are such a product of our rearing, and I send a strong warning to all parents, be cautious what you espouse to the vulnerable.

Again Etoile, I consider myself a fortunate girl. A miracle? Perhaps, but not one born from Christ, but rather, born from the love of two caring women. It makes me want to do the same for any others who find themselves in a similar situation--THAT, to me, is immortality.

I study psychology in the hopes of being the girl who can do that.

 

[Esperanza_Hidalgo]

To sexylatina19

I think you know how I feel for you.

 

[Esperanza_Hidalgo]

Although I am married and bicurious I totally agree with everything you said.

It is totally wrong for people to force their morality on others. WTF? Everyone has the right to fuck who they want! ENJOY, don't feel guilty!

I wasn't baptized until I was almost a teenager, and I still like to say that I have 12 years of original sin.

I've moderated my views on organized religion somewhat over the years, but in general, I can't help but agree with what Esperanza says. It benefits certain people and it harms others - overall, I think it causes more problems than it helps, but it's built into the human mind and you can't make it go away. Those who don't need it, I think, are on the whole better off than those that do.

A friend of mine once said to me "Catholicism is a great religion to grow out of".

 

[Esperanza_Hidalgo]

Have all the believers dropped off? What a pleasure to read so many passionately rational (in my judgment) statements on organized and disorganized religion. When I reached the age of twelve in the mid-fifties and realized I didn't buy into the guff about eternal life and heaven being available if I believed in the god Jehova - the same claim made for Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny - I found my friends and relatives almost universally so horrified they refused to accept my seriousness or the validity of my thought processes.

These days...not so much. Rave on, gentle souls.

It has been quite a ride, hasn't it?

 

[namron711]

=======>~~~~~~~~(i)

nobody has that answer.

all you can do is try to live a good life, try not to hurt people and learn from the mistakes you make so no matter what happens in the end you've got all your bases covered.

If everyone followed this advice, we would have a much happier, kinder, and more peaceful world...
but alas, god put too many jerks in the world.

 

[Stella_Omega]

If everyone followed this advice, we would have a much happier, kinder, and more peaceful world...
but alas, god put too many jerks in the world.

 

[thegrandchef]

First, we should recognize the difference between homosexuality and homosexual acts. We are called to "love the sinner and hate the sin."

St. Paul is fairly clear about the matter of homosexual acts, some very "liberal" scholars will argue that his reference is only to sex with male prostitutes. (Romans 1:18-32, 1 Corinthians 6:12-20)

Also, going back to Leviticus 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female ; it is an abomination."


The Church teaches that homosexual people are called to a life of chastity, but we should also recognize that the Church teaches that all non-married folk are called to a life of chastity.