Use of the "N" word

[XerXesXu]

I don't know if you're a Star Trek fan, but this kind of reminds me of those episodes in the original series where Kirk outsmarts computers by confronting them with simple logical conundrums until smoke comes out of them or their voices get really high and they shut down or explode. It was a neat trick, and he used it in several episodes.

I think I'm starting to see the smoke coming out of this thread.

I'm not a Star Trek fan, but anything Kirk can do, I can do better.

 

[SimonDoom]

I'm making a very serious point.

I don't think you are. You are making a generalization. Generalizations are hazardous, usually partly or mostly wrong, and unhelpful.

If, by "you are what you write," you merely mean that one's writing often reflects things about oneself, such as one's education, experience, beliefs, perhaps even glimpses into one's psychology, then yes, of course that's true, but it's true in an unimportant, almost tautological way. It's not a very serious point to make.

If, on the other hand, you are saying that you can infer, with confidence, from what an author writes in a story (say, the use of the N word in a story), the author's background, purposes, intent, psychology, political views, views on race, etc., then no, you cannot, and the statement is false. You can make guesses, but there's an excellent chance that your guesses are completely off the mark. That's why "You are what you write" is an unilluminating statement. It does nothing to contribute to an understanding of the story or of the author.

You describe Agatha Christie as a "cozy" person who writes "cozy" stories. But you only know about her because in 30 seconds you can read her bio at Wikipedia. The stories don't tell you who she is; they tell you what she writes. You have to look to other sources to find out, with any confidence, who she "is."

Since we're all anonymous here, you have no such sources, and you have no idea, just by reading someone's story, what that person's intent, psychology, fantasy life, real sex life, or background are, unless they tell you. You're just guessing, and it's foolish to pretend it's anything more than that.

I write many mom-son stories. One might infer that I fantasize about my mom, or that I have had some personal experience with incest. Neither is remotely true. On the basis of my stories, one could make all kinds of wrong-headed predictions and guesses and generalizations about me, my fantasy life, and my sex life. Generalizations about authors based on their writing, like most generalizations, are hazardous and as likely to be wrong as right. It's not a helpful way of thinking.

 

[XerXesXu]

[I don't think you are. You are making a generalization. Generalizations are hazardous, usually partly or mostly wrong, and unhelpful.]

I’m being very specific.

[If, by "you are what you write," you merely mean that one's writing often reflects things about oneself, such as one's education, experience, beliefs, perhaps even glimpses into one's psychology, then yes, of course that's true, but it's true in an unimportant, almost tautological way. It's not a very serious point to make.]

All those things and more. If you make yourself out a racist or incel, that’s serious.

[If, on the other hand, you are saying that you can infer, with confidence, from what an author writes in a story (say, the use of the N word in a story), the author's background, purposes, intent, psychology, political views, views on race, etc., then no, you cannot, and the statement is false. You can make guesses, but there's an excellent chance that your guesses are completely off the mark. That's why "You are what you write" is an unilluminating statement. It does nothing to contribute to an understanding of the story or of the author.]

I’m illuminated.

[You describe Agatha Christie as a "cozy" person who writes "cozy" stories. But you only know about her because in 30 seconds you can read her bio at Wikipedia. The stories don't tell you who she is; they tell you what she writes. You have to look to other sources to find out, with any confidence, who she "is."]

Simply incredible.

[Since we're all anonymous here, you have no such sources, and you have no idea, just by reading someone's story, what that person's intent, psychology, fantasy life, real sex life, or background are, unless they tell you. You're just guessing, and it's foolish to pretend it's anything more than that.]

eg: This Incel:

https://www.literotica.com/s/together-ssn-02-ch-05-cum-dumpster

I’m sure for you it’s just a nice guy's fantasy and anyway, words essentially have no meaning.

[I write many mom-son stories. One might infer that I fantasize about my mom, or that I have had some personal experience with incest. Neither is remotely true. On the basis of my stories, one could make all kinds of wrong-headed predictions and guesses and generalizations about me, my fantasy life, and my sex life. Generalizations about authors based on their writing, like most generalizations, are hazardous and as likely to be wrong as right. It's not a helpful way of thinking.]

I shan’t be unkind.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Generalization: I'm a white boy from the southwest side of Chicago.

Specific: I grew up on the southwest side of Chicago until I was 21, then I lived... well read my bio, on the Authors side... I am white and grew up in a house where the words that started this weren't used unless my grandfather on my mother's side was visiting. He was a bigot and maybe a racist. And for all you out there in TV land, there is a difference. And most people don't use the proper word for what they are talking about because the Racist word has a built in trigger.

I have lived in places that would make most of you here shudder with fear. I have also lived in places that were really nice and I hated to go when my tour was up. I have also lived in foreign countries for long periods of time. And I have lived a fairly quiet life. And I have lived in more places than the average person visits on vacation.

What I write about was never a part of my life, yet the readers think it was. The characters do things that I would like to do, yet I never have and most likely never will. The way I feel about others is most likely reflected in my writing, yet sometimes, it isn't.

I use words because they fit in what I am writing, not to get a rise out of the reader. And I am not what I write.

 

[MsNatalie99]

How do you feel about the use of the "N" word in stories. Especially in interracial? Might give a sort of realism for the time or place. The use of the term "African American" might sound strange in 1960 Mississippi.

I'd speculate that no matter how you slice it, you'll recieve some serious blowback. Even period pieces and historical dramas get scrutinized for their use of "historically correct" language. Readers are not always patient or understanding. They may not offer you the opportunity to explain your position on the story, or whether or not you're prejudiced in real life. Many will draw that conclusion the instant they see the word. A very slippery slope.

 

[Comshaw]

I gather there aren't a lot of black authors here. I certainly appreciate most everyone's initial trepidation in using the word. I feel the same way in some instances, despite my liberal use of the word in my daily life.


I quite agree that many of the IR themed stories are clearly written by white people with very ... we'll call it limited views on what an interaction with a black person would look like. The Idea of a kink is offensive for sure but that can be true for any situation. It doesn't necessarily have to be. Foe instance being attracted to a black person could be a kin to having an affinity for blondes or big-breasts. Its how its written that makes all the difference. Of course use f the N word can certainly exacerbate the former of the situations.

As far as my use in my writing. I certainly use it occasionally. I would say as much as Necessary. So not much. I've never written a story about a racist or with racist characters. (I live in Indiana so that'd be more of a true experience lol) But I definitely have IR dating in my stories.

Most all my black characters will say the N word at some point I'd imagine. My stories are based off my experiences and most places I go are predominately white (college, work, school, earth) so I'm frequently the representative of black males in my social group and feel compelled to code switch so as to be more accepted. This obviously leads to a less frequent use of the N word even in most casual settings. But it will slip out around white people if I feel comfortable enough around them. I general rule of thumb...If a black a friend uses the N word around you and your are white they probably at least hold some amount of respect/trust for you lol (again not always)

I know One story That I have written but not yet published on this site had My character, a black guy in a room with three other white people (2 girls and a guy) is rapping along to a Lil Wayne song as it comes on. However for the purposes of the story, the quoted lyrics served to Identifying the song rather than saying anything in particular about the character. The casual use of the N word reflects the casual use of the word in hip-hop culture.

Ironically, or maybe not so ironic...One of my more favorite stories on the site is TCCS by Stormbringer. LoveCraft this I believe is more of what we are talking about. Where a lot of the dialogue involving the black characters is so offensive that its comical. I usually end up glossing over their dialogue and insert my own more imaginative words. However I enjoy stories where A lot of different people fuck a lot of different people and have to deal with the fall out. This serves that niche and I also enjoy reading the inner dialogue of White women who had never been with a black guy before because I have been that person for a number of white women. I could do without the overt racism and over use of the hard "er" in his stories.

And most people wouldn't say I'm the "thug" looking stereotype of black guy but around black people, family and friends the N word flows like elixir but that's a thing that would never happen around certain types because its for us to understand. I'm not sure that was always clear just felt like I wanted to say something from a black authors perspective. That was a lot lol. I hope you read my stories. I really hope you like my stories. I can't wait to read yours!

Sorry, but to me that's total bullshit. If you don't like that word used by others, ain't no reason for you (or family or friends or, or, or) to use it either. It's analogous to a pious religious person who publicly professes to hate profanity, but in the back room with his buddies liberally sprinkles his narrative with "fuck". Even if you want it to mean something other than what it means coming from a mouth that uses it in hate, it's the old double standard of "do what I say and not what I do". Double standards are one of my hot buttons, and this definitely fits that category.

Comshaw

 

[MsNatalie99]

Lots of people also drive drunk and say that it's wrong to do. Lots of people say that cheating on your wife is wrong but they still do it. You can't justify your bad behavior by pointing out the bad behavior of others. It was a word used to belittle and oppress a a race and culture for hundreds of years. It sounds to me like you have a pretty high comfort saying it anyway , and I hope that you got that from your black friends, which I'm sure you have in abundance. But I've seen many instances of black on black violence that were initiated by the use of that word. Go to Grand Rapids and ask your question, go to Dearborn Heights and ask your question, go to Lincoln Heights and ask your question. And see what happens if you say "the word" rather than referring to it as the "n" word. I'm not trying to belittle anyone or bash anyone, but I don't think it'll degrade the quality of your erotica if that word isn't in your story.

 

[MsNatalie99]

Sorry for the back-to-back posts, I was absent during all the changes and I'm not always sure how to post with quotes.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Sorry, but to me that's total bullshit. If you don't like that word used by others, ain't no reason for you (or family or friends or, or, or) to use it either. It's analogous to a pious religious person who publicly professes to hate profanity, but in the back room with his buddies liberally sprinkles his narrative with "fuck". Even if you want it to mean something other than what it means coming from a mouth that uses it in hate, it's the old double standard of "do what I say and not what I do". Double standards are one of my hot buttons, and this definitely fits that category.

I get to call my partner "snugglebaby"* but it would be inappropriate for her work contacts to do so. That's not a double standard, just understanding that a different speaker with a different context may change what's appropriate.

*not our actual term, but something equally gooey

 

[Comshaw]

I get to call my partner "snugglebaby"* but it would be inappropriate for her work contacts to do so. That's not a double standard, just understanding that a different speaker with a different context may change what's appropriate.

*not our actual term, but something equally gooey

Nope, a false comparison. If I called your partner "snugglebaby" she (assumption) might be shocked, or a nonplussed, but it wouldn't be fighting words, for most anyway. Now, if I called her a whore, or a dumb fucking cum dumpster, that would be a close analogy. While you might call her that, in the heat of passion, just between the two of you, that word still means what it means whether you use it there or someone else does in a different situation. It goes the same for the N word. you can't change where it came from, the use it is and was put to, or the meaning of it by using it in another manner. I'm part Native American. I don't go around calling my brothers and sisters lazy ass siwash.

That's the thing, if the desire is to eliminate such things, then it needs to be universal. If not, then leave it be and don't get spun up about it when someone other than who you think should, uses it. As I said, a double standard.

 

[MsNatalie99]

Context is important, as is pronounciation, and historical connotations. Calling my father Daddy, and calling Jill's husband Daddy will have two completely different outcomes. It's not a double standard. And if you think it's vulgar inappropriate that the very people who were victimized by that word use it amongst each other, then you should see it as a bad word. Two wrongs don't make a right. To be honest I could see the word used in a period piece. Or a story highlighting and criticizing bigotry, such as American History X. Erotica.... not so sure. If it's the kind of language you want to use in your writing, for the sake of historical and cultural accuracy, so be it. However, I don't foresee it being well-received.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Nope, a false comparison. If I called your partner "snugglebaby" she (assumption) might be shocked, or a nonplussed, but it wouldn't be fighting words, for most anyway. Now, if I called her a whore, or a dumb fucking cum dumpster, that would be a close analogy.

We call one another "bitch" and say "fuck you" to one another pretty often while playing cards, and I think we've probably used "whore" at some point in the bedroom. From a stranger it'd be aggressive and insulting; our mutual relationship makes a difference to how it's received.

While you might call her that, in the heat of passion, just between the two of you, that word still means what it means whether you use it there or someone else does in a different situation.

No, not really. English is highly contextual, and language is rarely just about the literal meanings of words. When I call my partner a "bitch" after she beats me in a card game, I'm not calling her a female dog nor an unlikeable woman; it's a compliment disguised as an insult, and our shared background allows her to recognise that. With somebody I didn't know as well, I would be much more cautious about trash-talking because they might not have the context to figure out whether I meant it as a joke.

It goes the same for the N word. you can't change where it came from, the use it is and was put to, or the meaning of it by using it in another manner. I'm part Native American. I don't go around calling my brothers and sisters lazy ass siwash.

Yep, and that's your and their choice. Everybody has their own way of processing trauma, and while history is full of parallels, no two slurs are ever quite alike in history or baggage. Every group gets to have their own discussions about reclamative use for the slurs that were weaponised against them.

I'm not Native American, so it's not my place to tell you and your siblings what you should be doing with that particular slur. I'm also not Black, and unless you are, it's not for either of us to tell Black people what to do with the N-word. That's their business, they know the context and the baggage far better than I do.

That's the thing, if the desire is to eliminate such things, then it needs to be universal. If not, then leave it be and don't get spun up about it when someone other than who you think should, uses it. As I said, a double standard.

You're trying to impose a simple universal rule on a language which is famously allergic to rules of that kind.

 

[SimonDoom]

I get to call my partner "snugglebaby"* but it would be inappropriate for her work contacts to do so. That's not a double standard, just understanding that a different speaker with a different context may change what's appropriate.

*not our actual term, but something equally gooey

There is a difference between what you are talking about and what Comshaw is talking about. You are using words with an intimate partner; the propriety of the usage depends on the nature of the relationship, not on skin color, or gender, or other differences. I think many, maybe most, people would say that so long as you and your partner have an understanding it doesn't matter to them what you say to one another in private.

It's a completely different matter when the question is what a black person can say in public versus what a white person can say in public.

Real life example: A black rap artist, Kendrick Lamar, invited a young white woman to join him on stage and rap his song along with him. It included the N word. He said it, and she said it with him. And he called her out on it, after having invited her to the stage to rap with him.

I'm not sure how I feel about this issue in general, in every case, but this particular example strikes me as an absurd double standard. He's using the word to a mixed-race audience, invites someone to rap with him, and criticizes her for using exactly the words he's using. I can't help but think there's something absurdist about it. A black person using that word and singing that word in a public setting legitimizes the word, whether he wants to take responsibility for what he's doing or not. It comes across as, "I'm [plug in the group] so the rules don't apply to me." If you take the position that racist speech is harmful, then you need to act consistently with that principle, regardless of what your race is. You don't get a pass because of your skin color. Personally, I don't think you can have a fair and just society based on that double standard.

It's totally different from, say, two black friends using the N word with one another in a bantering, friendly way. I can understand two people doing that with one another, even though it's not something I ever do or want to do. I would have a very different first impression of overhearing two black people using that word with one another in a private conversation versus two white people using that word with one another in a private conversation. It's a matter of context. But it's different when we're talking about the use of words in a public setting, addressed to a mix-raced audience. That's the case here at Literotica.

 

[Salacious_Scribe]

I have a character use it. He's a white thug and degrading an upper class white woman as she gives him a BJ. Trust me it works. I only used it once to show the kind if person the character is.

 

[Salacious_Scribe]

Wrong again. You make my point. You are what you write.

I wtlrote a story about two white thirtyish lesbians. I'm a straight mixed race fiftyish male.

I wrote a 40ish billionaire. Im poor as a church mouse.

I wrote a naval aviator. Im not a pilot or an officer, I was enlisted.

I wrote a hot wife story. My wife is sexually repressed due to past bad experiences.

I wrote a story about a celtic goddess and her pet dragon.

Shall I go on?

We are story tellers, not story experiencers. We are not what we right.

Or do you believe CS Lewis went to Narnia, JK Rowling is a wizard, Tom Clancy was a CIA operative, Spider Robinson was a time traveling bar tender, and Doug Adams hitchedhiked across the universe.

So long and thanks for all the fish.

 

[XerXesXu]

I wtlrote a story about two white thirtyish lesbians. I'm a straight mixed race fiftyish male.

I wrote a 40ish billionaire. Im poor as a church mouse.

I wrote a naval aviator. Im not a pilot or an officer, I was enlisted.

I wrote a hot wife story. My wife is sexually repressed due to past bad experiences.

I wrote a story about a celtic goddess and her pet dragon.

Shall I go on?

We are story tellers, not story experiencers. We are not what we right.

Or do you believe CS Lewis went to Narnia, JK Rowling is a wizard, Tom Clancy was a CIA operative, Spider Robinson was a time traveling bar tender, and Doug Adams hitchedhiked across the universe.

So long and thanks for all the fish.

I'd put you down as a fantasist. You are what you write.

 

[SimonDoom]

I'd put you down as a fantasist. You are what you write.

Well, you could say exactly the same thing about most Literotica writers, which is why this is a completely unhelpful, non-analytical thing to say with no predictive value, whatsoever.

 

[XerXesXu]

Well, you could say exactly the same thing about most Literotica writers, which is why this is a completely unhelpful, non-analytical thing to say with no predictive value, whatsoever.

And so much more. I'll put you down as someone with blunt interpersonal skills.

 

[Voboy]

Check out Post #72, peeps.

 

[XerXesXu]

Check out Post #72, peeps.

Are you sitting uncomfortably? Then I'll begin.

 

[KeithD]

Check out Post #72, peeps.

I don't think XXX is a troll. He's a legitimate Lit. author and I haven't seen where his postings are focused on trolling. I think that he believes in what he posts, that he's often off the wall in his position, and he's tenacious in supporting his miscues to the point of irritation. I don't think he's posting to make mischief. I think he's just naturally an asshat who doesn't know a third of what he thinks he does about writing. I don't think he's a bit of help to developing writers here, though. (And if you think that's being harsh feel free to read what he's felt free to post about me--and then search for whatever you think you can find on me personally attacking him ever before.)

I do think he's just a poster to be avoided for writing guidance based on his posting behavior, but I don't consider his purpose to be here to troll the board.

( I was composing this as XXX posted the post before me. I think it exhibits him perfectly, though.)

 

[Voboy]

I don't think XXX is a troll. He's a legitimate Lit. author and I haven't seen where his postings are focused on trolling. I think that he believes in what he posts, that he's often off the wall in his position, and he's tenacious in supporting his miscues to the point of irritation. I don't think he's posting to make mischief. I think he's just naturally an asshat who doesn't know a third of what he thinks he does about writing. I don't think he's a bit of help to developing writers here, though. (And if you think that's being harsh feel free to read what he's felt free to post about me--and then search for whatever you think you can find on me personally attacking him ever before.)

I do think he's just a poster to be avoided for writing guidance based on his posting behavior, but I don't consider his purpose to be here to troll the board.

( I was composing this as XXX posted the post before me. I think it exhibits him perfectly, though.)

He contributes nothing to the thread, and is tedious.

To me, that's a troll. Once a poster repeats the same ol' reply for the fourth time, with no further attempt to engage in anything else on point? That's what a troll is.

No point in continuing to make such people a part of my Litgoing experience, personally. He's a cliche.

 

[XerXesXu]

I don't think XXX is a troll. He's a legitimate Lit. author and I haven't seen where his postings are focused on trolling. I think that he believes in what he posts, that he's often off the wall in his position, and he's tenacious in supporting his miscues to the point of irritation. I don't think he's posting to make mischief. I think he's just naturally an asshat who doesn't know a third of what he thinks he does about writing. I don't think he's a bit of help to developing writers here, though. (And if you think that's being harsh feel free to read what he's felt free to post about me--and then search for whatever you think you can find on me personally attacking him ever before.)

I do think he's just a poster to be avoided for writing guidance based on his posting behavior, but I don't consider his purpose to be here to troll the board.

( I was composing this as XXX posted the post before me. I think it exhibits him perfectly, though.)

If KeithD agrees it must be true. You are what you write. I could have written a mirror image post about him, just by changing the names.

 

[KeithD]

I think of a troll as intentionally causing trouble just for the enjoyment of causing trouble. I don't see that with XXX. He appears seriously to take on all sorts of writing issues, including grammar, and doesn't seem to be intentionally trying to screw up the perceptions and development of writers--that he does just seems incidental to what he seems to think he's doing.

His view of where everyone writes from is actually discussable compared with the trully zany and damaging positions he takes on acceptable grammar in publishing.

 

[XerXesXu]

He contributes nothing to the thread, and is tedious.

To me, that's a troll. Once a poster repeats the same ol' reply for the fourth time, with no further attempt to engage in anything else on point? That's what a troll is.

No point in continuing to make such people a part of my Litgoing experience, personally. He's a cliche.

Have you ever wondered why 'You are what you write," is a cliche? People who use the 'N' word to excite masturbatory fantasies are racist. Those whom SimonDoom refers to, who are right-on virtue-signallers but who get sexual gratification from reading such material are worse. They're racists and hypocrites.