Use of the "N" word

[purvis2]

How do you feel about the use of the "N" word in stories. Especially in interracial? Might give a sort of realism for the time or place. The use of the term "African American" might sound strange in 1960 Mississippi.

 

[KeithD]

If I had a character that crass, I might use it in dialogue. Most often a black using it, though (which they do). That said, I don't know if I ever have--certainly rarely, if at all.

 

[ParkerSteve66]

It would be the same for the "M" or "D" or "S" words to represent Irish or Italian or Latin American immigrants.

 

[AlexBailey]

You might want to check out Tim Minchen's public service message about the power and the language of prejudice.

 

[BiscuitHammer]

I have a scheduled use of it by a bigoted piece of crap white guy, but it's very jarring, and the consequences are dire, since it happens in the presence of an avowed anti-racist. As it should be.

Would I use it as a casual thing between two black characters? Very unlikely, but if I did, I would have to consider that moment so very perfect that it needed to be done for literary glory. Sooooo, unlikely.

 

[neuroparenthetical]

We're writing a type of fiction that trades in heightened everything. People can do whatever they want, but making a special exception for a single word immediately raises the question of hypocrisy. It's a taboo. We write about violating taboos. It's an element of race play. We write not only about race play, but the fictional smut that race play enthusiasts use to jerk off.

I wrote a story about a sadist, and she used the word "fag" like she'd won a lifetime supply of them from Publisher's Clearing House. Unless somebody asked me to use that term during a private, consensual, sexual encounter, I'd never say it myself.

Even out in the real world, people use the word. Brown-skinned folks in certain places use it constantly. I speak from personal experience. I was a criminal defense attorney. During private meetings with clients, I occupied that special position in the system where they wouldn't self-censor very much; they'd just keep apologizing afterwards. Curse then sorry. Slur then sorry. Hell, it was a relief to have rape cases. Then we all knew we'd have to be saying disgusting shit all the time no matter what. Probably saved hours by ditching all the apologies.

I heard the n-word so many times in five years that I feel like I should have some kind of honorary membership somewhere - although maybe not any place I'd want to go.

 

[Bramblethorn]

How do you feel about the use of the "N" word in stories. Especially in interracial? Might give a sort of realism for the time or place. The use of the term "African American" might sound strange in 1960 Mississippi.

How much of a priority is realism for IR readers?

 

[TxRad]

Some people try to stir the shit with a stick, some use a boat paddle, and then there is the idiot that shows up with an outboard motor.

 

[SimonDoom]

I haven't used it yet. If I did, it would probably be with some caution, even though I support flouting taboos in erotic stories. If it was a story where the setting made it appropriate, such as among racist white people in the south in the 1950s, then I could see doing it. The more challenging question is whether I would use it in an interracial story that was focused on race play. I'm not sure. I doubt I would use it in my own story, but I don't think it would necessarily be wrong. People do have fantasies that indulge in flouting taboos, and I think it's OK to express those fantasies in stories.

There's a scene in the movie Storytelling where a young white woman played by the actress Selma Blair has sex with a black college professor. He has her strip for him, pushes her against a wall, and enters her from behind, and tells her to use the N word over and over as he has sex with her. It's far more uncomfortable than erotic. That would be my concern if I tried to use it in a story: it might just make everything too uncomfortable to be erotic.

 

[XerXesXu]

There's a scene in the movie Storytelling where a young white woman played by the actress Selma Blair has sex with a black college professor. He has her strip for him, pushes her against a wall, and enters her from behind, and tells her to use the N word over and over as he has sex with her. It's far more uncomfortable than erotic. That would be my concern if I tried to use it in a story: it might just make everything too uncomfortable to be erotic.

But for others, it may be that aspect of being taboo that makes it 'sizzle'. It's only a fantasy.

 

[lovecraft68]

I've never used it in a straight up smut story. I'm of the opinion most interracial stories here, especially in Loving wives are racist trash and the sad thing is most aren't intending it that way, but the tropes and language and theme of them are offensive to me. I've explained this at length in the past won't bother doing t again other than to say the way I handle IR encounters is they're just two people having sex who happen to be of different ethnicities. I don't play it up as a kink.

But that's me and if people want to use it they have every right to, and sadly that's part of what drives a kink that's bass is somehow a white woman with a black man is still taboo, wrong, and trashy, again, personal opinion, have at it, I don't need to read it, but will never tell anyone what not to write.

In my serious novels I have used it, both as two black men referring to each other that way because for a reason that eludes me, they do and they think its cool. I also use it as an insult slur coming from characters I have created to be unlikeable asshats, and that type uses sexist, racist and phobic language, and I think for many it makes their ultimate demise more enjoyable. I don't over use it, I did a search on a 450 (print pages) I published a couple years ago) and it was used three times, but there were also a couple of other ones that start with S and C, that added another 6 so 9 times in 450 pages 156k words. Everything in moderation and anything loses punch when used constantly, and I write using my personal boundaries as a measuring stick and over use would make me feel uncomfortable because at that point its shock value only

I don't use it to get people going, I do it because I believe in realism and in real life there are ignorant people I will not sanitize my realism for the sake of politically correct snowflakes who want to censor and remove freedom of speech. Go see Keith D's thread "Its getting serious" because that is exactly where caving to the professionally offended leads.

 

[SimonDoom]

But for others, it may be that aspect of being taboo that makes it 'sizzle'. It's only a fantasy.

I am sure you are right.

Also, we cannot assume that everyone who feels that particular sizzle is necessarily racist. There is a countervailing impulse at work as well, with erotica and other types of fantasy. There are probably people who feel strong anti-racist impulses and who do not act racist in their day to day lives, but feel a desire to indulge this kink precisely because it runs counter to their morals and principles. That's part of how fantasy works. I have no doubt that there are progressive white women who have these fantasies about black men. Any fantasy you can imagine is probably one that somebody, somewhere has.

 

[XerXesXu]

I am sure you are right.

Also, we cannot assume that everyone who feels that particular sizzle is necessarily racist. There is a countervailing impulse at work as well, with erotica and other types of fantasy. There are probably people who feel strong anti-racist impulses and who do not act racist in their day to day lives, but feel a desire to indulge this kink precisely because it runs counter to their morals and principles. That's part of how fantasy works. I have no doubt that there are progressive white women who have these fantasies about black men. Any fantasy you can imagine is probably one that somebody, somewhere has.

I see. They're not racists, they're closet racists. You are what you eat. You are what you write. You are what you fantasise about.

 

[Voboy]

I wouldn't use it.

Not that I have anything against its use in writing if it's narratively useful (and I can think of some situations where it would be), but for me personally, I write what I want to read. The N word is generally not in that category.

I enjoy writing, and for me, that starts with the characters. I like them and I love writing their dialogue. I don't love the N word. Nor would I be likely to love a character who would use it in most contexts.

With respect, @XerXesXu I do not agree that "you are what you write." I write many, many things that I would never do, and that I would never approve of. I write them because they make good stories.

 

[Winter_Fare]

It would jar to me, but context is everything, right? It will make the speaker into a "baddie" but it won't magically turn the reader into a raving racist.

I see. They're not racists, they're closet racists. You are what you eat. You are what you write. You are what you fantasise about.

I'm not an omelette, I don't want to be raped, I don't want to drink anyone's blood or kill them. Pretty sure I am not what I fantasize about, or what I write. (Or what I eat, because digestion).

 

[XerXesXu]

I write many, many things that I would never do, and that I would never approve of. I write them because they make good stories.

Do you read them and masturbate?

 

[Voboy]

Do you read them and masturbate?

Did you read my reply?

I write them. I don't read them. Your statement is that "you are what you write," which I deny.

 

[XerXesXu]

It would jar to me, but context is everything, right? It will make the speaker into a "baddie" but it won't magically turn the reader into a raving racist.


I'm not an omelette, I don't want to be raped, I don't want to drink anyone's blood or kill them. Pretty sure I am not what I fantasize about, or what I write. (Or what I eat, because digestion).

What if the writer intends that it should make the speaker the 'goodie'?

When I was young we still had food rationing. We had a family meeting to discuss what we should do with the egg. The upside was all the girls looked like Audrey Hepburn. A girl with what is called a 'healthy figure' today we would call 'fatty'. It's an uncomfortable truth for many, that you are what you eat.

 

[XerXesXu]

Did you read my reply?

I write them. I don't read them. Your statement is that "you are what you write," which I deny.

Do you masturbate when you write them? Do you read them when you proofread? Do they arouse you?

 

[Winter_Fare]

What if the writer intends that it should make the speaker the 'goodie'?

When I was young we still had food rationing. We had a family meeting to discuss what we should do with the egg. The upside was all the girls looked like Audrey Hepburn. A girl with what is called a 'healthy figure' today we would call 'fatty'. It's an uncomfortable truth for many, that you are what you eat.

I'm fat, but I'm not an egg...and I ain't a vampire!

 

[Winter_Fare]

But the thought of vampire's makes me horny, what the...

 

[Voboy]

Do you masturbate when you write them? Do you read them when you proofread? Do they arouse you?

Not every part. My stories tend to be complex. Some things in there arouse me, some things are in there to advance the plot. A lot of those things don't reflect things I'd do or say, nor do they reflect my fantasies. They reflect my characters' fantasies, behaviors, and ideas. Perhaps you don't differentiate between a writer and his characters, but if you don't, then I fear we lack the common ground to discuss this.

To bring this back on topic, let's suppose for a moment that I wanted to write a piece of social commentary. I don't, so I wouldn't, but bear with me. In my piece, I want to make some sort of trenchant comment about race and language, or whatever. I'm gearing my work for an audience that I don't imagine has much direct experience with racism.

So, in an attempt to shock, let's say I use the N-word in that piece.

You seem to be implying that the fact I've used that word reflects some degree of racism within me, or at least some sort of desire to use that word frivolously. When, in fact, my use of that word in that context has been considered very carefully, and when it does not reflect my beliefs. In fact, I'm using it in a conscious effort to repudiate the use of that word.

Can you see that, perhaps, "you are what you write" might be a very facile way to look at a word as complicated as the N-word? Or, indeed, at other aspects of complicated stories?

 

[XerXesXu]

Not every part. My stories tend to be complex. Some things in there arouse me, some things are in there to advance the plot. A lot of those things don't reflect things I'd do or say, nor do they reflect my fantasies. They reflect my characters' fantasies, behaviors, and ideas. Perhaps you don't differentiate between a writer and his characters, but if you don't, then I fear we lack the common ground to discuss this.

To bring this back on topic, let's suppose for a moment that I wanted to write a piece of social commentary. I don't, so I wouldn't, but bear with me. In my piece, I want to make some sort of trenchant comment about race and language, or whatever. I'm gearing my work for an audience that I don't imagine has much direct experience with racism.

So, in an attempt to shock, let's say I use the N-word in that piece.

You seem to be implying that the fact I've used that word reflects some degree of racism within me, or at least some sort of desire to use that word frivolously. When, in fact, my use of that word in that context has been considered very carefully, and when it does not reflect my beliefs. In fact, I'm using it in a conscious effort to repudiate the use of that word.

Can you see that, perhaps, "you are what you write" might be a very facile way to look at a word as complicated as the N-word? Or, indeed, at other aspects of complicated stories?

Suppose someone read your post above, do you think that they would think you are what you write, and do you doubt that they would be correct?

 

[Voboy]

Suppose someone read your post above, do you think that they would think you are what you write, and do you doubt that they would be correct?

Are you incapable of differentiating between a post on a forum, vs a creative-writing exercise?

I'm beginning to think I was right. I think we lack the common ground to even discuss this.

 

[XerXesXu]

Are you incapable of differentiating between a post on a forum, vs a creative-writing exercise?

I'm beginning to think I was right. I think we lack the common ground to even discuss this.

Or a chat in the pub or on the train, within a few minutes of hearing the product of your imagination people will have a fair idea of who you are. It's not for no reason that people post their most intimate fantasies anonymously.