Use of the "N" word

[Voboy]

I think of a troll as intentionally causing trouble just for the enjoyment of causing trouble. I don't see that with XXX. He appears seriously to take on all sorts of writing issues, including grammar, and doesn't seem to be intentionally trying to screw up the perceptions and development of writers--that he does just seems incidental to what he seems to think he's doing.

His view of where everyone writes from is actually discussable compared with the trully zany and damaging positions he takes on acceptable grammar in publishing.

We can agree to disagree on the precise definition of what a troll is.

The bottom line is that he isn't worth replying to in this time and place. He's added everything he intends to, and now he's merely taking the piss.

 

[XerXesXu]

I think of a troll as intentionally causing trouble just for the enjoyment of causing trouble. I don't see that with XXX. He appears seriously to take on all sorts of writing issues, including grammar, and doesn't seem to be intentionally trying to screw up the perceptions and development of writers--that he does just seems incidental to what he seems to think he's doing.

His view of where everyone writes from is actually discussable compared with the trully zany and damaging positions he takes on acceptable grammar in publishing.

I'm beginning to feel uncomfortable.

 

[KeithD]

The bottom line is that he isn't worth replying to in this time and place. He's added everything he intends to, and now he's merely taking the piss.

That's certainly true.

 

[TxRad]

We can agree to disagree on the precise definition of what a troll is.

The bottom line is that he isn't worth replying to in this time and place. He's added everything he intends to, and now he's merely taking the piss.

He hasn't said anything worth replying to since about his third post.

 

[KeithD]

He hasn't said anything worth replying to since about his third post.

Sometime in late 2011?

 

[XerXesXu]

He hasn't said anything worth replying to since about his third post.

All responses have been immensely useful to me. I'm here to people-watch, and I'm intrigued by how would-be writers of erotica construct denial mechanisms, including beliefs that they couldn't possibly be what they write. There's even another thread where people discuss whether they share their erotic writing with friends, family and workmates. Many don't. I wonder why?

 

[JohnEngelman]

I might use the n word in dialogue. I never use obscene words. I would only have an enemy of the protagonist use that word.

 

[SimonDoom]

I think of a troll as intentionally causing trouble just for the enjoyment of causing trouble. I don't see that with XXX. He appears seriously to take on all sorts of writing issues, including grammar, and doesn't seem to be intentionally trying to screw up the perceptions and development of writers--that he does just seems incidental to what he seems to think he's doing.

His view of where everyone writes from is actually discussable compared with the trully zany and damaging positions he takes on acceptable grammar in publishing.

I agree with this.

A troll is somebody who is motivated by the desire just to poke the bear. A troll's motive, from the outset, is bad. A recent example--I forget his name--was the guy that I and some others called out on a thread and he replied, basically (this isn't verbatim): "if I want to be an a-hole I can. I don't have to be nice and you can't make me."

No, you don't have to be nice, but if you're making a point of not being nice, you're a troll.

That's not XXX. I think XXX believes what he says. He has a tendency to make big, unsupported generalizations about things, like "you are what you write," that IMO don't mean anything, or, if they do mean anything, are wrong, and when called on it he refuses to engage and doubles down, repeating himself. But that doesn't make him a troll. Even though I disagree with what he wrote, it's not a bad talking point to start an interesting conversation.

In my opinion, what he wrote is akin to starting a thread along the lines of, "You are your favorite ice cream flavor. Discuss." It's ridiculous, but you might get some interesting replies.

 

[XerXesXu]

That's not XXX. I think XXX believes what he says. He has a tendency to make big, unsupported generalizations about things, like "you are what you write," that IMO don't mean anything, or, if they do mean anything, are wrong, and when called on it he refuses to engage and doubles down, repeating himself. But that doesn't make him a troll. Even though I disagree with what he wrote, it's not a bad talking point to start an interesting conversation.

Go on then:

https://www.literotica.com/s/together-ssn-02-ch-05-cum-dumpster

Engage.

Recall that you agreed with me, that you are what you write, you dissent only from the uncomfortable bits.

Read the above and tell me that anyone could write, and/or masturbate to, that fantasy, and it would reveal nothing about them except the school they attended.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

Back to the original question

Go on then:

https://www.literotica.com/s/together-ssn-02-ch-05-cum-dumpster

Engage. ...

Read the above and tell me that anyone could write, and/or masturbate to, that fantasy, and it would reveal nothing about them except the school they attended.

As soon as you have a story with multiple characters, surely the 'you are what you write' saying falls apart?

In the chapter you cite, the author might be or have been a high school jock with a gang-rape fantasy. Or a girl, fantasising about 'permission' to be taken by lots of men. Or a girl processing an event that's happened to her. Or the guy at the end with a hurt/comfort fantasy, possibly wanting a plot to prove that he isn't like Those Other Guys.

Or simply an author wanting to show a young woman getting fucked a lot and trying non-consent as a plot device.

Are you claiming the author is all of those, XXX?

Nancy Friday's work on women's sexual fantasies showed a huge change from the 70s (loads of 'rape' fantasies as the only way women would escape the 'Good Girls Don't' mantra even in their heads) to the 90s (huge drop in 'rape', huge increase in bondage and wanting 'control'). The linked chapter wouldn't have been out of place in Friday's first anthology.

Now, "you are who you identify with in a story" might be worth exploring. I've written a number of stories with a female narrator, and received comments from men saying "she should have done XYZ to the guy". Never stopping to think that in the story the guy is fulfilling her sexual desires and clearly not caring if he could too.

Regarding the original thread question - I'm used to avoiding that word because it breaks so many American websites while other words don't. And it would come across very differently to American readers (and black vs white American readers) than to UK ones without the history of it. The only circs where I'd consider it would be dialogue between local black lads like I chat to in the gym sometimes, though the word seems to have gone out of fashion recently. Any hypothetical story I wrote about that premise would likely be a Mature MILF category rather than Interracial simply because I don't have that fetish and wouldnt be able to play up to it more than simple description. I doubt the n-word would come up even in self-deprecating language. "You seriously want my black ass, lady?"

I might write a story starting with the Battle of Bamber Bridge (American GIs welcomed in local pub in WWII until officers turn up and demand locals comply with segregation. Locals said 'Right-O', kept the black troops and banned the white officers. Violence ensued) where racial slurs would be expected from the American white officers. It's never been a common slur from white Brits, though. But do tell me, XXX, who am I - a white American racist, a black GI, or the local girl left holding the dark baby? Oodles of the latter in the late 40s...

I'm sure you could deduce and guess facts about me from my stories - overeducated bisexual scientist with a wide variety of kinks and fondness of a full English breakfast, for example. But even if you just look at stories I narrate, am I the queer Irishman with the drink problem, or the southern female student, or the fat skater with mental health problems, or the dyslexic Brummie chap?

Do let me know.

 

[XerXesXu]

Back to the original question



[As soon as you have a story with multiple characters, surely the 'you are what you write' saying falls apart?]


No. Once an incel, always an incel. Once a racist always a racist.


[In the chapter you cite, the author might be or have been a high school jock with a gang-rape fantasy. Or a girl, fantasising about 'permission' to be taken by lots of men. Or a girl processing an event that's happened to her. Or the guy at the end with a hurt/comfort fantasy, possibly wanting a plot to prove that he isn't like Those Other Guys.

Or simply an author wanting to show a young woman getting fucked a lot and trying non-consent as a plot device.

Are you claiming the author is all of those, XXX?]


I’m simply stating the uncomfortably obvious. If you masturbate and obtain sexual gratification from racist or rapist revenge fantasies, writing or reading them. You are racist or incel.



Do let me know.



Have you wondered why this statement would only be controversial on an erotica site.


[Nancy Friday's work on women's sexual fantasies showed a huge change from the 70s (loads of 'rape' fantasies as the only way women would escape the 'Good Girls Don't' mantra even in their heads) to the 90s (huge drop in 'rape', huge increase in bondage and wanting 'control'). The linked chapter wouldn't have been out of place in Friday's first anthology.]


The standard come-on in Taglish is ‘Give me rape.’


[Now, "you are who you identify with in a story" might be worth exploring. I've written a number of stories with a female narrator, and received comments from men saying "she should have done XYZ to the guy". Never stopping to think that in the story the guy is fulfilling her sexual desires and clearly not caring if he could too.]


Undoubtedly.


[Regarding the original thread question - I'm used to avoiding that word because it breaks so many American websites while other words don't. And it would come across very differently to American readers (and black vs white American readers) than to UK ones without the history of it. The only circs where I'd consider it would be dialogue between local black lads like I chat to in the gym sometimes, though the word seems to have gone out of fashion recently. Any hypothetical story I wrote about that premise would likely be a Mature MILF category rather than Interracial simply because I don't have that fetish and wouldnt be able to play up to it more than simple description. I doubt the n-word would come up even in self-deprecating language. "You seriously want my black ass, lady?"]


Our derogatory word was ‘wogs’ (Maybe from Workers on Government Service.). I only know of the N word from its history in the American experience of slavery and the justifications therefor, which we’ve been exposed to in the media.


[I might write a story starting with the Battle of Bamber Bridge (American GIs welcomed in local pub in WWII until officers turn up and demand locals comply with segregation. Locals said 'Right-O', kept the black troops and banned the white officers. Violence ensued) where racial slurs would be expected from the American white officers. It's never been a common slur from white Brits, though. But do tell me, XXX, who am I - a white American racist, a black GI, or the local girl left holding the dark baby? Oodles of the latter in the late 40s...]


Well meaning but confused.


[I'm sure you could deduce and guess facts about me from my stories - overeducated bisexual scientist with a wide variety of kinks and fondness of a full English breakfast, for example. But even if you just look at stories I narrate, am I the queer Irishman with the drink problem, or the southern female student, or the fat skater with mental health problems, or the dyslexic Brummie chap?


Do let me know.]


Uncomfortable in your skin.

 

[TxRad]

Quit feeding the troll. He has one line and he's always right. Get over it.

 

[Winter_Fare]

I cannot believe this thread it STILL going
(Sips questionable red liquid from crystal glass in windowless basement )

 

[SimonDoom]

I cannot believe this thread it STILL going
(Sips questionable red liquid from crystal glass in windowless basement )

One of the best lines in the history of cinema:

"I don't drink . . . wine."

 

[Bramblethorn]

Have you ever wondered why 'You are what you write," is a cliche?

Is it though?

https://books.google.com/ngrams/gra...k and handsome;,c0;.t1;,book by its cover;,c0

 

[Bramblethorn]

There is a difference between what you are talking about and what Comshaw is talking about. You are using words with an intimate partner; the propriety of the usage depends on the nature of the relationship, not on skin color, or gender, or other differences. I think many, maybe most, people would say that so long as you and your partner have an understanding it doesn't matter to them what you say to one another in private.

It's a completely different matter when the question is what a black person can say in public versus what a white person can say in public.

No parallel is perfect. The point of mentioning my partner is that the speaker and the listener matter. Beyond that, the parallel breaks down, but up to that far it's relevant.

Real life example: A black rap artist, Kendrick Lamar, invited a young white woman to join him on stage and rap his song along with him. It included the N word. He said it, and she said it with him. And he called her out on it, after having invited her to the stage to rap with him.

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-...n-word-racism-concert-explained-a8423101.html

I didn't see the concert but from what I can find, he stopped the song, said "you got to bleep one single word though", and then they did the song again. I don't see a problem here. He's the performer, he gets to choose his boundaries for fan participation. She misread where those boundaries were set, AFAICT he treated it like a honest mistake and clarified rather than kicking her off stage or shaming her. That seems like a grown-up way to handle it.

I'm not sure how I feel about this issue in general, in every case, but this particular example strikes me as an absurd double standard. He's using the word to a mixed-race audience, invites someone to rap with him, and criticizes her for using exactly the words he's using.

I don't have a transcript - what did he say that you're considering "criticism"? I didn't see anything in the Independent article that I would consider "criticism" (as opposed to a polite clarification of boundaries) but perhaps there's something I've missed.

Beyond that, I think I already made it clear that I don't consider "exactly the [same] words" to be a terribly reliable way to assess speech, stripped out of important context.

I can't help but think there's something absurdist about it. A black person using that word and singing that word in a public setting legitimizes the word, whether he wants to take responsibility for what he's doing or not.

The concept that you're invoking here of "legitimizes the word" is only meaningful if one accepts the proposition that words have to be Always Okay or Never Okay, with no room for Sometimes Okay And Sometimes Not Depending On Context. I don't accept that proposition, and by repeatedly asserting it like this you're simply begging the question.

It comes across as, "I'm [plug in the group] so the rules don't apply to me." If you take the position that racist speech is harmful, then you need to act consistently with that principle, regardless of what your race is. You don't get a pass because of your skin color. Personally, I don't think you can have a fair and just society based on that double standard.

It's totally different from, say, two black friends using the N word with one another in a bantering, friendly way. I can understand two people doing that with one another, even though it's not something I ever do or want to do. I would have a very different first impression of overhearing two black people using that word with one another in a private conversation versus two white people using that word with one another in a private conversation. It's a matter of context.

Okay. So we do agree that context can affect the legitimacy of a word, and we're only differing on which specific contexts make it legitimate/illegitimate.

In that case, I'm going back to: this is a word that has primarily been used against Black people (choosing my words carefully here; I don't mean only African-American). They're far more knowledgeable in the nuances than you or I are, and they're the ones who lose out if things go wrong, so I'm going to leave it to Black people (and others targeted by that term) to have the conversation about which specific contexts are acceptable.

 

[Whanmore]

One of the best lines in the history of cinema:

"I don't drink . . . wine."

I was thinking the Same thing. .....Great line, IDK the Movie.

 

[MsNatalie99]

I was thinking the Same thing. .....Great line, IDK the Movie.

Bram Strokers Dracula. Starring Gary Oldman Keanu Reeves Winona Ryder and Anthony Hopkins

 

[Whanmore]

Go on then:

https://www.literotica.com/s/together-ssn-02-ch-05-cum-dumpster

Engage.

Recall that you agreed with me, that you are what you write, you dissent only from the uncomfortable bits.

Read the above and tell me that anyone could write, and/or masturbate to, that fantasy, and it would reveal nothing about them except the school they attended.

I've heard anyone but you make this Argument. So Quentin Tarantino is a racist because he writes Racist characters? Or are you making the point that the need for a racist mantra like the "Black Bull Nigga" trope is a crutch that racists rely on? Or both? Or neither?


---Unrelated, I'm a black writer if u cant tell and I have some characters that say the N word so If that's anyone's thing lol Send em my way. But realistically I've written hundred of short stories ans While I've had black character who use the word because simply it felt natural I've never felt the necessity to use the word or have my characters say the word. One day I will probably write a runaway slave story in which case there would be a necessity, Don't know if it'll be erotica though.....maybe

 

[Whanmore]

Bram Strokers Dracula. Starring Gary Oldman Keanu Reeves Winona Ryder and Anthony Hopkins

Oh That's already on my List nice! I'll take a shot when I hear the line! Dont tell me who said it lol. I wanna be surprized

 

[SimonDoom]

Bram Strokers Dracula. Starring Gary Oldman Keanu Reeves Winona Ryder and Anthony Hopkins

That line is in the original too with Bela Lugosi.

 

[ElectricBlue]

That line is in the original too with Bela Lugosi.

Not the original.

There are many earlier versions of the Dracula story, the best of which is Murnau's Nosferatu (a silent). Klaus Kinski was in a 1979 remake by Werner Herzog, and there's a very clever take in Shadow of the Vampire, where William Dafoe plays Murnau making the film, and John Malkovich plays Max Schrek, who might in fact be a vampire.

 

[XerXesXu]

Quit feeding the troll. He has one line and he's always right. Get over it.

Fetch the coffee. I don't drink .... wine.

32*C out now, but later it'll get warm. Maybe a shower to clear the air.

 

[SimonDoom]

Not the original.

There are many earlier versions of the Dracula story, the best of which is Murnau's Nosferatu (a silent). Klaus Kinski was in a 1979 remake by Werner Herzog, and there's a very clever take in Shadow of the Vampire, where William Dafoe plays Murnau making the film, and John Malkovich plays Max Schrek, who might in fact be a vampire.

I just knew somebody was going to mention Nosferatu, and it was probably going to be you or Bramblethorn.

Nosferatu wasn't Dracula. I meant the original Dracula. It's the same concept, I agree, but the title was what I was going for.

I never saw the original but I liked the Werner Herzog remake. It has a nice use of the Das Reingold overture as Harker approaches the castle.

There are some good vampire movies, but there are some very silly ones, like the ones with Kate Beckinsale. Lost Boys, though, was a classic.

Not that this has anything to do with the N word, but at this point in the thread that's probably a relief.

 

[MsNatalie99]

I just knew somebody was going to mention Nosferatu, and it was probably going to be you or Bramblethorn.

Nosferatu wasn't Dracula. I meant the original Dracula. It's the same concept, I agree, but the title was what I was going for.

I never saw the original but I liked the Werner Herzog remake. It has a nice use of the Das Reingold overture as Harker approaches the castle.

There are some good vampire movies, but there are some very silly ones, like the ones with Kate Beckinsale. Lost Boys, though, was a classic.

Not that this has anything to do with the N word, but at this point in the thread that's probably a relief.

Love Lost Boys, not the sequals. Let me in, was also quite good. My all time favorite was the origional Fright Night. Not for quality, just cuz. Never got into the Underworld Franchise. It's a shame too, because I love werewolf movies.