Tony Gets Tough!

[TheEarl]

Such beautiful tolerance, Earl.

Charley - why should we be tolerant of foreign nationals living here? It is a privilege to live in this country for non-British citizens. They have no actual right to be here.

And frankly if they don't act like guests, then we shouldn't be putting them up. It is not to much to expect a guest not to recruit for terrorist cells and preach hatred, is it?

Take Abu Hamza (the world's most famous immigrant). He's an Egyptian citizen and has no visa to be in England. He lives in London and claims social security, with no intention of ever working. In his spare time, he give vitriolic speeches, declaring fatwa on Britain and inviting people to blow up innocent civilians for the greater good of his warped version of Islam (presumably the one with the Koran that missed out the 'Thou shalt not kill' section).

Why should we not remove him to his country of origin?

The Earl

 

[Goldie Munro]

I like living in a country that is tolerant.

I don't like living somewhere that now has armed police at underground and train stations.

I hate anyone who thinks that killing solves anything.

 

[CharleyH]

Charley - why should we be tolerant of foreign nationals living here? It is a privilege to live in this country for non-British citizens. They have no actual right to be here.

And you have a right to be where you are Earl, the location, the land and plot? You are British? Or Roman descent? Pagan? Or Christian? Jew?

What, or maybe why do you have that right, Earl? To live where you do AND then the gaul to think no one else has a right to live there, too?

 

[TheEarl]

I like living in a country that is tolerant.

I don't like living somewhere that now has armed police at underground and train stations.

I hate anyone who thinks that killing solves anything.

Goldie: Killing someone does solve someone. I hate to say it, but it's true. If a terrorist has a bomb on him, then wounding him will do nothing, as he can still detonate it and kill everyone around him. It's terrible that the measures are necessary, but shooting to kill is the only way to stop a dedicated suicide bomber.

If you can think of a non-lethal way of stopping someone whose sole wish is to kill themselves and as many people around them as possible, I'd love to know it.

Britain is still tolerant. I am still tolerant. I love foreign people and I love the metling pot that is London. What I don't love is people who are here on our sufferance and who use that position to try and destroy this country and to kill people. Why is it intolerant to punish them and to remove them from the area where they are doing damage?

The Earl

 

[TheEarl]

And you have a right to be where you are Earl, the location, the land and plot? You are British? Or Roman descent? Pagan? Or Christian? Jew?

What, or maybe why do you have that right, Earl? To live where you do AND then the gaul to think no one else has a right to live there, too?

I have a right to be here by dint of being a British citizen. One of my friends is American. She is here by dint of having a British visa.

Anyone can live here, I'm happy with the melting pot. What I am not happy with is people comign here because they hate it and want to destroy it. Why is it intolerant to be unwelcoming to a person who hates us and wishes to either kill orf orcibly convert us.

If people want to come and live here and to work and to be part of Great Britain, then all are welcome. If they come here to try and destroy us, then I say they should not be allowed in. Is that so wrong?

The Earl

 

[Goldie Munro]

Sorry in my opinion killing solves nothing

 

[CharleyH]

Goldie: Killing someone does solve someone. I hate to say it, but it's true. If a terrorist has a bomb on him, then wounding him will do nothing, as he can still detonate it and kill everyone around him. It's terrible that the measures are necessary, but shooting to kill is the only way to stop a dedicated suicide bomber.

If you can think of a non-lethal way of stopping someone whose sole wish is to kill themselves and as many people around them as possible, I'd love to know it.

Britain is still tolerant. I am still tolerant. I love foreign people and I love the metling pot that is London. What I don't love is people who are here on our sufferance and who use that position to try and destroy this country and to kill people. Why is it intolerant to punish them and to remove them from the area where they are doing damage?

The Earl

LOL I see where you are going silly boy. And love you!

 

[TheEarl]

Sorry in my opinion killing solves nothing

Goldie: So you would prefer the police tried to arrest a suicide bomber, giving him ample time to detonate his bomb and kill 20 people around him, including the police officers?

Killing him has saved 20 lives.

The Earl

 

[TheEarl]

LOL I see where you are going silly boy. And love you!

Charley - I honestly don't see the problem with this.

Can you honestly tell me that you would be happy living in the same city as Abu Hamza, knowing that he is illegally in your country and is recruiting people to kill innocent civilians. Wouldn't you want him to be removed from his sphere of influence?

The Earl

 

[Goldie Munro]

Goldie: So you would prefer the police tried to arrest a suicide bomber, giving him ample time to detonate his bomb and kill 20 people around him, including the police officers?

Killing him has saved 20 lives.

The Earl

I think we have a misunderstanding here! Killing who saved 20 lives?

 

[CharleyH]

Goldie: So you would prefer the police tried to arrest a suicide bomber, giving him ample time to detonate his bomb and kill 20 people around him, including the police officers?

Killing him has saved 20 lives.

The Earl

As recent events have proven? AND PULEEASE Londoners are not used to it? Kill 1 innocent to what end? Kill 20 terrorists to martyrdom?

Do you think terrorism is new? Especially in London? :|

 

[TheEarl]

I think we have a misunderstanding here! Killing who saved 20 lives?

Killing the terrorist before he detonates his bomb. That death has solved something, at least in the short term.

As recent events have proven? AND PULEEASE Londoners are not used to it? Kill 1 innocent to what end? Kill 20 terrorists to martyrdom?

Do you think terrorism is new? Especially in London? :|

The death of Mr de Menezes was terrible and I have full sympathy. However, I cannot blame the policemen, nor the strategy. If they truly believed he was carrying a bomb, then they had to kill him. They couldn't risk wounding him and then him detonating a bomb, killing dozens of innocents. It was a failure of intelligence, not of strategy and, to be honest, he gave them more than probable cause to believe he intended harm.

It is terrible that that is necessary, but no-one has a single better solution. I ask you - would you prefer a terrorist be shot in the head or for him to be allowed to detonate his bomb, killing himself and god knows how many others?

Terrorism is not new to London, but we have always dealt with the IRA, who have a genuine political process and the possibility of negotiation with Sinn Fein. They aimed to be in the public eye, not necessarily to kill the greatest number. They were undoubtably mass-murdering fuckwits, but they gave warnings and evactuation codes and had aims above the slaughter of as many innocents as possible. This type of terrorism is new to London.

The Earl

 

[Dar~]

ami, you must be talking in too high of a register. I can't hear a word you are saying.


http://bestsmileys.com/notlistening/2.gif

Sarah, that smilie is priceless, where did you find it? [/threadjack]

 

[Guest]

Sarah, that smilie is priceless, where did you find it? [/threadjack]

Thanks!

http://www.bestsmileys.com/pageindex.htm

(Under Not Listening, of course)

 

[Goldie Munro]

I still say killing solves nothing

 

[Guest]

Killing the terrorist before he detonates his bomb. That death has solved something, at least in the short term.

The death of Mr de Menezes was terrible and I have full sympathy. However, I cannot blame the policemen, nor the strategy. If they truly believed he was carrying a bomb, then they had to kill him. They couldn't risk wounding him and then him detonating a bomb, killing dozens of innocents. It was a failure of intelligence, not of strategy and, to be honest, he gave them more than probable cause to believe he intended harm.

It is terrible that that is necessary, but no-one has a single better solution. I ask you - would you prefer a terrorist be shot in the head or for him to be allowed to detonate his bomb, killing himself and god knows how many others?

Terrorism is not new to London, but we have always dealt with the IRA, who have a genuine political process and the possibility of negotiation with Sinn Fein. They aimed to be in the public eye, not necessarily to kill the greatest number. They were undoubtably mass-murdering fuckwits, but they gave warnings and evactuation codes and had aims above the slaughter of as many innocents as possible. This type of terrorism is new to London.

The Earl

Earl, I agree with you.

Situations like this become easier for me when I imagine it is my children who are possible victims.

Situation:
Armed person threatening lives of dozens of people -
My children are among those threatened -
Authorities should stop the armed man with any means possible to save the dozens of people.
Save my children.

If you are intentionally trying to harm others, then your own life is forfeit.

 

[CharleyH]

I have a right to be here by dint of being a British citizen. One of my friends is American. She is here by dint of having a British visa.

Anyone can live here, I'm happy with the melting pot. What I am not happy with is people comign here because they hate it and want to destroy it. Why is it intolerant to be unwelcoming to a person who hates us and wishes to either kill orf orcibly convert us.

If people want to come and live here and to work and to be part of Great Britain, then all are welcome. If they come here to try and destroy us, then I say they should not be allowed in. Is that so wrong?

The Earl

Ya'all have been destroying yourselves for hundreds of years. Tell me the difference now?

 

[TheEarl]

Ya'all have been destroying yourselves for hundreds of years. Tell me the difference now?

So it makes it alright because we've done it before? That's specious logic at the best of times.

I presume we are agreed that murder is bad? Deporting these particular foreign nationals will almost certainly prevent murders. Where is the bad?

The Earl

 

[CharleyH]

So it makes it alright because we've done it before? That's specious logic at the best of times.

The Earl

That IS what you are saying. Earl. I am saying you are bogus

 

[CharleyH]

Charley - I honestly don't see the problem with this.

Can you honestly tell me that you would be happy living in the same city as Abu Hamza, knowing that he is illegally in your country and is recruiting people to kill innocent civilians. Wouldn't you want him to be removed from his sphere of influence?

The Earl

Earl. I honestly live in a city with many fuck ups. Do I care? No - why? There as many fuck ups otherwise. Do I care? Why should I? Life everyday is filled with potential - life and death. Care of a terrorist? Why? What can they do but create fear? You post that point. Hate? No - fear - yes. Think about it .

 

[TheEarl]

That IS what you are saying. Earl. I am saying you are bogus

That is not what I'm saying. I'm not mentioning our past. I'm mentioning the future and the distinct probability that people will die if these foreign nationals remain in our country.

Earl. I honestly live in a city with many fuck ups. Do I care? No - why? There as many fuck ups otherwise. Do I care? Why should I? Life everyday is filled with potential - life and death. Care of a terrorist? Why? What can they do but create fear? You post that point. Hate? No - fear - yes. Think about it .

A terrorist's power may lie in fear, but it also lies in death. We cannot just ignore tham and hope they will go away, for they will kill to try and get our attention. You are very laconic about the possibility of innocents death, apparently taking the attitude that innocents die every day, so what's a few more. My point is that any innocent death that cna be avoided should be avoided if possible.

You say you live in a city with many fuckups. So does that mean your city would be no worse for one more? Or ten more? Or a hundred more?

I can't understand how you can be so sanguine about innocents dying.

The Earl

 

[CharleyH]

That is not what I'm saying. I'm not mentioning our past. I'm mentioning the future and the distinct probability that people will die if these foreign nationals remain in our country.

ROFL OH? How NICE OF YOU to say so.

A terrorist's power may lie in fear, but it also lies in death. We cannot just ignore tham and hope they will go away, for they will kill to try and get our attention. You are very laconic about the possibility of innocents death, apparently taking the attitude that innocents die every day, so what's a few more. My point is that any innocent death that cna be avoided should be avoided if possible.

You say you live in a city with many fuckups. So does that mean your city would be no worse for one more? Or ten more? Or a hundred more?

I can't understand how you can be so sanguine about innocents dying.

I am pretty damn certain that Britain has played a MAJOR part in terrorism in the past. OH YA - I AM. Were those people in your country who killed so many guilty? OR Innocent? Judge not what you do not know.

LOL. Look at you, Earl. LOOK ... and SEE.

 

[TheEarl]

ROFL OH? How NICE OF YOU to say so.

I am pretty damn certain that Britain has played a MAJOR part in terrorism in the past. OH YA - I AM. Were those people in your country who killed so many guilty? OR Innocent? Judge not what you do not know.

LOL. Look at you, Earl. LOOK ... and SEE.

Charley - my country has done many terrible things. I do not deny it. We have lied, cheated and killed. We have been utter fucking bastards at times in history.

However, there is nothing we can do about that. It's happened already. All we can do is try and affect what we do in the future.

The causes of these troubles may be directly attributed to things we've done in the past, but there is never a justification for killing 54 innocent commuters. Deliberately killing innocents is never justifiable, not matter how badly you've been wronged.

Death has occurred in the past due to Britain. Are you honestly saying that future death doesn't matter because we had it coming?

I'm just interested in saving lives. I don't care which nationality they belong to. I just don't want more dead people.

The Earl

 

[CharleyH]

Charley - my country has done many terrible things. I do not deny it. We have lied, cheated and killed. We have been utter fucking bastards at times in history.

However, there is nothing we can do about that. It's happened already. All we can do is try and affect what we do in the future.

The causes of these troubles may be directly attributed to things we've done in the past, but there is never a justification for killing 54 innocent commuters. Deliberately killing innocents is never justifiable, not matter how badly you've been wronged.

Death has occurred in the past due to Britain. Are you honestly saying that future death doesn't matter because we had it coming?

I'm just interested in saving lives. I don't care which nationality they belong to. I just don't want more dead people.

The Earl

All countries have done more atrocities than they are willing to meet, Earl. NOW, sure innocents, but how innocent are we, really as countries? Now lets just discuss Hiroshima for a moment, or maybe Nagasaki and lets talk of innocence, its not British, but, well it could happen - no? Now? With a mentality like yours? You think Nazi Germany is bad? LOOK AT YOU, Earl, and tell me if I was arab, maybe under suspiscion? Would you help me?

 

[TheEarl]

All countries have done more atrocities than they are willing to meet, Earl. NOW, sure innocents, but how innocent are we, really as countries? Now lets just discuss Hiroshima for a moment, or maybe Nagasaki and lets talk of innocence, its not British, but, well it could happen - no? Now? With a mentality like yours? You think Nazi Germany is bad? LOOK AT YOU, Earl, and tell me if I was arab, maybe under suspiscion? Would you help me?

You dare accuse me of being racist? I find it amusing because I know you and know you don't mean to be insulting, but I'd be mortally offended if that came from a stranger.

I don't judge people on their naitonality. I don't judge people on their skin. I don't judge people on their religion. If you were an Arabian and you were getting grief, then yes, I would stick up for you. I would not assume your guilt for the colour of your skin and I'm slightly disappointed that you think so little of me.

The Earl