Supreme Court Justices signal they'll OK new abortion limits, may toss Roe v. Wade

[Champakian]

You do ralize that even things like free speech, press, etc. were once voted on, yes? These are natural rights, but they were discerned to be thus after deliberation, discussion and a vote. Two original Amendments actually failed to pass.

I'm quite sure others would have a different list of untouchable things...how do we determine which are going to be really untouchable?

I vote to put Paris Hilton on that list.


:nods:

 

[Champakian]

I have said this 1,000 times:

Abortion, short of medical emergency, is as pernicious an evil as the death penalty.

This isn't 1821 and we have put sex education into our GRADE SCHOOLS!

A woman, knowing what she knows (you know, SCIENCE) who gets pregnant
has a moral duty and obligation to preserve life, not take it.

To condone elective abortions is a Left-wing man's dream of female domination.
If he knocks her up, it's on her, especially if she choses life.
HE cannot possibly be held responsible...

Pisses me off to no end.

 

[Vetteman]

I have said this 1,000 times:

Abortion, short of medical emergency, is as pernicious an evil as the death penalty.

This isn't 1821 and we have put sex education into our GRADE SCHOOLS!

A woman, knowing what she knows (you know, SCIENCE) who gets pregnant
has a moral duty and obligation to preserve life, not take it.

To condone elective abortions is a Left-wing man's dream of female domination.
If he knocks her up, it's on her, especially if she choses life.
HE cannot possibly be held responsible...

Pisses me off to no end.

Glad someone said it, if a woman gets raped it's her own fault. She shouldn't have been outside the kitchen with shoes on. Fuck those liberal bastards!

 

[Champakian]

What part of medical emergency do you fail to fathom?

 

[LupusDei]

What part of medical emergency do you fail to fathom?

The part where it's her sole decision is or isn't it "medical emergency" not yours. You don't know all the facts and her reasoning. Contraceptives fail. A great many abortions are in young girls (as young as nine, seriously) who might indeed not know all the facts.

And then, it's as if the same "pro-life" torture advocates wouldn't be staunchly at war with contraception in general. Yes, most "elective" abortions are contraceptive failures. Yes, sexual education and easy access to contraception is the obvious -- and only -- vector to minimize demand for abortion, but it will never be zero, objectively.

You can't prevent abortion. No you can't, it is and will be done regardless of legality. The debate isn't would it happen or not, but ONLY about with methods would be used and what medical attention the person would receive during and after the procedure. Restrictions on abortion is only about unnecessary torture of people making hard but unavoidable decisions that run contrary to your twisted, self righteous, ignorant "morality". Ultimately, it's exactly as effective as declaring suicide illegal.

This isn't conjecture, it's a measurable fact, statistics gathered over long time in over 97 countries around the world prove that restrictions on abortion doesn't materially change number of abortions, what they do change, is number of women maimed and killed by unsafe attempts.

Read on Hondas for extreme example. Nine of ten people there believe women attempting abortion should be jailed. There's very strict laws, with no exceptions whatsoever. Yet, there's hundreds of thousands abortions and close ten thousand casualties, yearly.

Restrictions on abortion is slaveowners logic, and result in evil regardless of excuses.

 

[Champakian]

I cannot argue anything that you are pointing out.

My sole point is that once you embrace that, it is a slippery slope
that begins with end-of-life discussions and ends with culling the "undesirables"

and that is not always death, but its step-daughter, enforced sterilization for the greater good.

 

[Champakian]

Additionally, I do not get, in the least bit,
how arguing for life, and patiently, as I said before,
when birth control is free, readily available and taught in the schools,
that protecting any subsequent life can be equated to slavery...

There's an internal conflict in that school of thought.

At what point in life does matricide end?

Some would say, in the case of, oh say,
Hitler that it is never...

 

[JohnnySavage]

Congress has had 50 years to codify Roe.

I don't put a whole lot of thought into the issue, but generally side with the pro-choicers. For the same reasons as I side with those that don't want a vaccine. My body, my choice.

But you can't blame the Court that has a very narrow standard of review; when Congress could have put the issue to bed long ago.

As a matter of law, Roe should be overturned because the Constitution is silent on the issue and the Court can't create law - only Congress can do that. If Congress were to codify Roe, then the Court would have no choice but to uphold that law because the Constitution is.... silent on the issue.

 

[LupusDei]

I cannot argue anything that you are pointing out.

My sole point is that once you embrace that, it is a slippery slope
that begins with end-of-life discussions and ends with culling the "undesirables"

and that is not always death, but its step-daughter, enforced sterilization for the greater good.

Not at all. It is about *gasp!* freedom. There's extremely clear test for, the bodily independence of a person.

One ultimate solution for the abortion debacle would be artificial womb that make extracted fetus of any age viable (it would be then grown as an orphan in government care, with or without charging the biologic parents for all or part of it). With that machinery in place you're free to ban abortion, universally replacing it with that process.

Until then, it's justified murder, no different from self defense -- what it ultimately is.

Imagine if government was free to attach a gigantic parasite to your body for nine months at a time. That's exactly what you defend with an abortion ban.

Yes, I used some absolutely abhorrent language, such as "murder" and "parasite" but there's no reason to sugarcoat this. Decision to abort is a life and death decision made in self defense and there's very little that can be done after it made; the only humane course of action is to help.

Yes, there's much that could be done to decrease number of unwanted pregnancies, including making a successful pregnancy as little life disturbing as practically possible, but you would rule that "socialism" and the heaviest lift is purely cultural. Such "little" things than stopping victim blaming and slut calling would do much more to prevent abortions than any bans.

 

[Champakian]

We have done pretty much everything humanly possible from education to medication
to eliminate the unwarranted need for elective abortion.
It didn't work.

 

[GothTalk]

And then, it's as if the same "pro-life" torture advocates wouldn't be staunchly at war with contraception in general.

Despite a tiny minority of religious zealots, they largely aren't, because it's not 1980 anymore.

Restrictions on abortion is slaveowners logic, and result in evil regardless of excuses.

Funny, I have the exact same opinion about arming oneself and free speech.

 

[LupusDei]

We have done pretty much everything humanly possible from education to medication
to eliminate the unwarranted need for elective abortion.
It didn't work.

The day it would be seen as mundane for a CEO to nurse a newborn during a shareholders meeting, I might agree.

 

[Champakian]

CEO types don't engage in such unproductive behavior as child-bearing.


It's a mentality.

 

[HisArpy]

I cannot argue anything that you are pointing out.

My sole point is that once you embrace that, it is a slippery slope
that begins with end-of-life discussions and ends with culling the "undesirables"

and that is not always death, but its step-daughter, enforced sterilization for the greater good.

Do you really not see the point of elective abortion?


It's called population control.


My belief is that if a certain minority segment of society wants to VOLUNTARILY kill their progeny on command of the powers that be in exchange for free food, free housing, free education, free drugs, "free" money and everything else...

Let them.

If they are too stupid to recognize the bonds of slavery and run toward them while shouting "Muh Freedumbz!!!", just fucking let them.

 

[LupusDei]

CEO types don't engage in such unproductive behavior as child-bearing.


It's a mentality.

And you don't see where's there the very problem right here?

(And no, it isn't "unnatural" ambition.)

 

[BabyBoomer50s]

That wouldn't apply here.



I.e., no one would be sued because they gun they sold was used.

Good catch. The federal law is applies to liability so you’re probably right that it wouldn’t apply. There might be a couple of more fundamental differences between that Newsom is proposing and the Texas law though.

Newsom’s proposal applies to “assault weapons” and untraceable “ghost guns.” These are already illegal to sell in California. The state has its own version of the old federal “assault rifle” ban that used to exist. Retailers cannot and do not sell what CA considers an assault rifle. I’m pretty sure there are no companies that manufacture them in the state either. So there are no assault rifle sellers or manufacturers in CA to sue. Same thing applies with kits. People in CA buy 80% lowers. Theoretically an individual could be sued under Newsom’s plan as a manufacturer, but only if the AR he built had the features that put it in the “assault rifle” category as CA defines it.

Long way of saying the only parties that could be subject to civil suits are already subject to criminal enforcement.

 

[Sean Renaud]

I have said this 1,000 times:

Abortion, short of medical emergency, is as pernicious an evil as the death penalty.

This isn't 1821 and we have put sex education into our GRADE SCHOOLS!

A woman, knowing what she knows (you know, SCIENCE) who gets pregnant
has a moral duty and obligation to preserve life, not take it.

To condone elective abortions is a Left-wing man's dream of female domination.
If he knocks her up, it's on her, especially if she choses life.
HE cannot possibly be held responsible...

Pisses me off to no end.

Assuming by we, you mean America not some whatever groups of people you choose qualify to be counted we have not done everything within our power to use both science and education to prevent unwanted pregnancies. Despite Gothtalks claims about this not being the 1980s I don't believe it was the 80's when the Right started losing their minds over Plan B. I'm old enough to remember when showing how to put a condom on a banana was way too much information to provide our youth with. Anyone who is a male knows that "common sense" does not apply to condoms. They are not socks, you do not put them all the way on so to speak. In fact as is pointed out in this thread one party wants nothing more than to dominate and degrade women. To the point that I recall when a vaccine for certain kinds of cancer came out. The right was pretty admant that would turn their daughters into whores.

Remember that ladies. Conservatives given a choice would rather you die of cervical cancer than have a sex life. That is your value to them and don't ever let them convince you of something different.

To the final point its not all on her. Child support is a very real thing. The only point you are even half way making is that putting as much power in the hands of women is the only proper choice. Men can actually walk away, or hell depending on when/where the sex took place the man may or not even know she has a child. Kill Bill aside I think the number of women who don't know they gave birth is pretty frickin low.

~snip~​

As a matter of law, Roe should be overturned because the Constitution is silent on the issue and the Court can't create law - only Congress can do that. If Congress were to codify Roe, then the Court would have no choice but to uphold that law because the Constitution is.... silent on the issue.

The courts seem to have the ability in practice to make laws just based on how they choose to interpret this or that. Its really no different from anybody involved with enforcing laws.

We have done pretty much everything humanly possible from education to medication
to eliminate the unwarranted need for elective abortion.
It didn't work.

As stated above, no we have not done everything humanly possible and its really obvious when you look at Europe and other nations around the globe that America is nearly unique in the industrial world in that we actively fight education and medication when it comes to sex. We have the highest number of abortions and unwanted pregnancies in the industrialized world. We have one of, if not the highest age of consent in the I. World. We have a higher than average drinking age, we're stricter on drugs.

If you look at the various surveys and polls which of course COULD be false but I don't see any great reason to doubt them women have abortions for one primary reason. Being unable to confidently care for their child. They may phrase it differently. Some say they want to get farther along in their career, or complete college, some aren't married, some flat out say they don't have the money. To me all of those are semantic differences on the same thing. I don't know anything about Ivanka and Tiffany Trump (God its easy to forget he had a daughter with the smarts to keep her fucking head down when she could) or Paris Hilton to presume to know them. But if any of them had an abortion it sure as shit wasn't because they couldn't afford to care for said child, or pay someone else to.

Again despite GothTalks claim that this isn't 1980 it very much is. People might claim otherwise but if you are cheering for Trump when he was on about "Merry Christmas" not "Happy Holidays" congrats, you have already admitted to the fact that you have no problem treating people who aren't Christian like they are less than human. And that includes the millions of you who aren't even Christian. Going to church on Christmas and Easter doesn't make you anymore Christian anymore than all the jack asses who put up flags that are dirty and worn makes them a patriot. (Seriously, did nobody teach these people to fucking burn flags?!) That is good old pure as the driven snow religion before logic.

Do you really not see the point of elective abortion?


It's called population control.


My belief is that if a certain minority segment of society wants to VOLUNTARILY kill their progeny on command of the powers that be in exchange for free food, free housing, free education, free drugs, "free" money and everything else...

Let them.

If they are too stupid to recognize the bonds of slavery and run toward them while shouting "Muh Freedumbz!!!", just fucking let them.

When we look not only at Europe but also at the globe as a whole quality education, atheisism/agnosticism instead of any strong religious affiliation cuts down on abortions and the size of families. While population control is something we should be working on the easiest way to slow growth. RAISE THE QUALITY OF LIFE FOR AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE. Turns out going to Disney World or touring the world is expensive. Sex. . . .well even for the biggest incel on the planet (trust me I'd know) the price of traveling outside this country is less than you'd pay for a night of fun.

Forcing a woman to hold a child she cannot care for is the highest form of slavery.

 

[GothTalk]

CEO types don't engage in such unproductive behavior as child-bearing.


It's a mentality.

No shit.

And you don't see where's there the very problem right here?

(And no, it isn't "unnatural" ambition.)

No.

It's a matter of what are your priorities.

IF you want to be a CEO, or at the top of any profession, you have to make that profession your life because you will be competing against those who are willing to make that sacrifice to get it.

If you want kids AND also be a corporate executive, lead homicide detective, astronaut, lead surgeon at the Mayo Clinic, the king of Wall St. etc. you need a partner to shoulder that for you because the 70+ hour work weeks you're going to be grinding for the next 10+ years, 100% dedicated and married to the game, aren't compatible with being a parent. You simply can't be top dog AND be fuckin' with a diaper filling nose miner at the same time. You either pay for childcare or you have a partner/spouse who takes care of that for you.... or you don't have kids.

 

[Cubantripod]

Congress has had 50 years to codify Roe.


But you can't blame the Court that has a very narrow standard of review; when Congress could have put the issue to bed long ago.

That's what happens when you elect a bunch of sociopaths to power and not leaders. We elect politicians who are only worried about being elected. They're not going to actually act like leaders.

We get the government we deserve. I know some don't like Scalia because he was too much of an originalist, but he was right when he said "vote the bums out." Until we get away from the two party system we're screwed. They keep us fighting amongst ourselves and then let the courts act like mommy and daddy and resolve disputes because there is no political consequences for judges.

As a matter of law, Roe should be overturned because the Constitution is silent on the issue and the Court can't create law - only Congress can do that. If Congress were to codify Roe, then the Court would have no choice but to uphold that law because the Constitution is.... silent on the issue.

This is a common argument to the pro-life or anti Roe v. Wade crowd. However, this interpretation is a very literal interpretation of the constitution. The Article of Confederation failed because they were interpreted too literally. They needed elasticity. I will agree that post WWII, the powers of the government have been interpreted too loosely. However, I will never understood why people are angry that the government is butting out of their personal business. The more liberties we have, the freer we are. Less government intrusion is a good thing. Medical decisions, which abortion falls under, are a privacy matter and should be interpreted as part of a person's right to privacy. So is all matters related to family planning. We're talking about respecting the bodily sovereignty of individuals. That's a big deal.

 

[LukSkyFokker]

CEO types don't engage in such unproductive behavior as child-bearing.

It's a mentality.

So is 45 not a CEO or not a father to his 4 kids?

 

[Cubantripod]

So is 45 not a CEO or not a father to his 4 kids?

When couples have children, traditional gender roles tend to take over. Women are more likely to take time off, take jobs with less pay but better hours for the sake of the kids. Men are more like to work longer hours, more dangerous but higher paying jobs. This explains a large portion of the pay gap between men and women. Childless women make about $0.98 for every dollar that men do and that difference is typically explained because men are more likely to negotiate a salary.

 

[LukSkyFokker]

When couples have children, traditional gender roles tend to take over. Women are more likely to take time off, take jobs with less pay but better hours for the sake of the kids. Men are more like to work longer hours, more dangerous but higher paying jobs. This explains a large portion of the pay gap between men and women. Childless women make about $0.98 for every dollar that men do and that difference is typically explained because men are more likely to negotiate a salary.

Thanks, Captain Irrelevantly Obvious! Fuck outta here.

 

[Cubantripod]

Thanks, Captain Irrelevantly Obvious! Fuck outta here.

Your childish insults are a result of your diminished brain capacity. In an instance like yours, one can never assume you know anything that is obvious.

 

[LukSkyFokker]

Your childish insults are a result of your diminished brain capacity. In an instance like yours, one can never assume you know anything that is obvious.

I run successful companies and live in a killer beach house in SoCal. Again, fuck outta here, you don't know shit. Just because I bitchslap your stupid ass with insults doesn't mean I also don't bitchslap you with facts. Just ask Bobo.

 

[Cubantripod]

I run successful companies and live in a killer beach house in SoCal. Again, fuck outta here, you don't know shit. Just because I bitchslap your stupid ass with insults doesn't mean I also don't bitchslap you with facts. Just ask Bobo.

And I am the starting quarterback for the Tampa Bay Bucs. On the internet anyone can pretend to be anything they want. Successful people are generally happy people. They don't get angry at the success of others. You exhibit the classic signs of a have not. All you do is whine. I am still waiting for facts. Now I am wondering about your mental state.