Spending Lives

JazzManJim

On the Downbeat
Joined
Sep 12, 2001
Posts
27,360
In all my consideration on the current situation in Iraq one concern rises above all the others for me. I think that it is, perhaps, the real question about why we are there. Forgive me in advance, because I'm going to muddle through a couple different takes on the same thing here. But here's the question:

What is a life worth?

When we send our military into any sort of action, we are spending those lives. We understand that the military planners and strategists will find the best and most efficient ways to use soldiers to gain the objective with the minimum cost of life, but lives will still be lost. It is an immutable fact of conflict and we can not escape it.

Yet there are always valid reasons to spend those lives. We do this every day with things non-military. We spend the lives of police officers and firefighters and paramedics. We require them to enter situations every day where each one may mave to spend their life for one or more of ours and we never blink at that. We consider it a fair trade, "part of the job" and though we sometimes thank them we rarely consider how we spend them. When the Twin Towers fell, we spent hundreds in just a few moments and we called them heroes because the cost of their lives bought us thousands more. Their actions saved lives, but at the cost of their own.

But we seem to think differently when it comes to soldiers though their job is not so much different than that of a police officer or firefighter. They are our proxies. They stand in our stead willingly, believing that we will not spend their lives rashly or unwisely.

I understand all of this, yet I still believe that we are justified in spending those lives in Iraq. But why? The answer for me is simple (to explain, though not simple in the consideration I had to make to arrive at the decision). I am willing to spend their lives because in doing so, we are able to purchase the lives of millions. By standing them in the way of a truly evil man and risking them we are buying the lives of the Iraqi people. And we're not buying those lives for ourselves. We're buying those lives so that they can live them as they will. We are doing what our fathers and mothers did before us, and theirs before them. We are giving our soldiers one at a time to buy the freedom of millions.

Let's consider what we're risking. If, given the number of soldiers we have in the conflict at present, our armies were to suffer the losses we have suffered in most of our other wars we will lose one out of every thirteen soldiers. We do not believe that our losses could be that large, but they may. This means that we may lose approximately 17,000 soldiers in Iraq. That's an awfully big number. We may not be ready for that, given the successes we had there before, and in places like Grenada, Haiti, Bosnia, Panama, and even Somalia. Consider though, that in spending those 17,000 lives, we buy the lives of 24 or so million people. We give them the chance to live the lives we live right now, problems and all, but without the worries of random torture, imprisonment, or death.

That may not be worth it to some. There is a sentiment that we need only spend the lives of our soldiers on ourselves and you could make an argument (which I may make later) that we are doing that as well. But what seems most important to me is that we are doing this in the way we always have in the US and the way we likely always will - giving ourselves to give complete strangers life and liberty. Is it worth it? I believe it is.
 
JazzManJim said:


What is a life worth?


I think the spot price today was $28.64 usd for a barrel of texas light crude, which equals one (1) Marine grunt.
 
That ^^^^^ ladies and germs....is how to kill a thread.

Thank you.

Lance
 
Each life is priceless, no matter whose it is.
Fuck the war or any other excuse for a loss of life.
Life is precious and priceless.

A $ amount for a person's life?
For whatever reason?

PRICELESS.
I don't want to 'spend' anyone's life.

Can you imagine this shite as an ad campaign?
"We will spend your life wisely. To us? You are money in the bank and will be treated like gold."

Or

"Dear Mr and Mrs American soldier's Mommy and Daddy,
today we spent your son/daughter's life.
He or she was = to $ blah blah American dollars to us as
a country. We got our money's worth and we spent well.
You should be proud.


Signed

The War accountant cashier's assistant."

Perhaps a better choice of words might be ex$pendable?

<sarcasm included>
 
JazzManJim said:
In all my consideration on the current situation in Iraq one concern rises above all the others for me. I think that it is, perhaps, the real question about why we are there. Forgive me in advance, because I'm going to muddle through a couple different takes on the same thing here. But here's the question:

What is a life worth?

When we send our military into any sort of action, we are spending those lives. We understand that the military planners and strategists will find the best and most efficient ways to use soldiers to gain the objective with the minimum cost of life, but lives will still be lost. It is an immutable fact of conflict and we can not escape it.

Yet there are always valid reasons to spend those lives. We do this every day with things non-military. We spend the lives of police officers and firefighters and paramedics. We require them to enter situations every day where each one may mave to spend their life for one or more of ours and we never blink at that. We consider it a fair trade, "part of the job" and though we sometimes thank them we rarely consider how we spend them. When the Twin Towers fell, we spent hundreds in just a few moments and we called them heroes because the cost of their lives bought us thousands more. Their actions saved lives, but at the cost of their own.

But we seem to think differently when it comes to soldiers though their job is not so much different than that of a police officer or firefighter. They are our proxies. They stand in our stead willingly, believing that we will not spend their lives rashly or unwisely.

I understand all of this, yet I still believe that we are justified in spending those lives in Iraq. But why? The answer for me is simple (to explain, though not simple in the consideration I had to make to arrive at the decision). I am willing to spend their lives because in doing so, we are able to purchase the lives of millions. By standing them in the way of a truly evil man and risking them we are buying the lives of the Iraqi people. And we're not buying those lives for ourselves. We're buying those lives so that they can live them as they will. We are doing what our fathers and mothers did before us, and theirs before them. We are giving our soldiers one at a time to buy the freedom of millions.

Let's consider what we're risking. If, given the number of soldiers we have in the conflict at present, our armies were to suffer the losses we have suffered in most of our other wars we will lose one out of every thirteen soldiers. We do not believe that our losses could be that large, but they may. This means that we may lose approximately 17,000 soldiers in Iraq. That's an awfully big number. We may not be ready for that, given the successes we had there before, and in places like Grenada, Haiti, Bosnia, Panama, and even Somalia. Consider though, that in spending those 17,000 lives, we buy the lives of 24 or so million people. We give them the chance to live the lives we live right now, problems and all, but without the worries of random torture, imprisonment, or death.

That may not be worth it to some. There is a sentiment that we need only spend the lives of our soldiers on ourselves and you could make an argument (which I may make later) that we are doing that as well. But what seems most important to me is that we are doing this in the way we always have in the US and the way we likely always will - giving ourselves to give complete strangers life and liberty. Is it worth it? I believe it is.

Thought provoking and well said.
 
JazzManJim said:
In all my consideration on the current situation in Iraq one concern rises above all the others for me. I think that it is, perhaps, the real question about why we are there. Forgive me in advance, because I'm going to muddle through a couple different takes on the same thing here. But here's the question:

What is a life worth?

When we send our military into any sort of action, we are spending those lives. We understand that the military planners and strategists will find the best and most efficient ways to use soldiers to gain the objective with the minimum cost of life, but lives will still be lost. It is an immutable fact of conflict and we can not escape it.

<Snip>QUOTE]

These are people we are talking about.
Not items on an expense account.
 
Annabelle hasn't had an original thought here yet, though she has learned to use the Quote function, a significant achievement.

JizzMan asks "what price a life?"

I ask "How many millions or arabs have died since 1920 so the USA can have cheap gasoline?"
 
Re: Re: Spending Lives

Lancecastor said:
I think the spot price today was $28.64 usd for a barrel of texas light crude, which equals one (1) Marine grunt.

Another stupid remark from Lance.
 
Re: Re: Re: Spending Lives

Annabelllee2003 said:
Another stupid remark from Lance.

Another prescient remark from Lance...one that is shared by many, little duck.

5280136_F_tn.jpg
 
Re: Re: Spending Lives

debbiexxx said:
These are people we are talking about.
Not items on an expense account.

debbie, I believe you've completely misread my post.

I'm not talking about money here at all, unlike some who really should drink a nice tall glass of shut the hell up.

I'm talking about spending lives to save lives. It has nothing at all to do with money and everything to do with what we value.
 
Seriously.

Your comodification of human life speaks volumes about our 21st-century late-capitalist corporate culture(s). And it doesn't sound pretty.
 
I know I'm gonna get hung for this but here goes. A human life isn't worth a dirty nickel. Life isn't precious. Where in all our arrogance do we get off thinking we have some divine right to exist? We are just animals with opposable thumbs. If all of the laws and authority dissapeared tomorrow we would degenerate into chaos and fratricide. Our ancestors didn't see life as precious. They understood that the world can wipe you out in the blink of an eye and not stop turning. Thousands die every day and no one takes notice. Our only worth in this world is what we do while we ARE here.
 
Lord Farquaad: Some of you may die, but its a sacrifice I'm willing to make.

Does he sound like the ruler of the United States of "Altruism"?
 
JazzManJim said:

Yet there are always valid reasons to spend those lives. We do this every day with things non-military. We spend the lives of police officers and firefighters and paramedics. We require them to enter situations every day where each one may mave to spend their life for one or more of ours and we never blink at that. We consider it a fair trade, "part of the job" and though we sometimes thank them we rarely consider how we spend them.

I've been in situations where someone's life was spent for mine, and it's never going to be considered a Fair Trade.

<snip>

I am willing to spend their lives because in doing so, we are able to purchase the lives of millions. By standing them in the way of a truly evil man and risking them we are buying the lives of the Iraqi people. And we're not buying those lives for ourselves. We're buying those lives so that they can live them as they will. We are doing what our fathers and mothers did before us, and theirs before them. We are giving our soldiers one at a time to buy the freedom of millions.

We're doing no such thing. They're currently living 'as they will'. We're attempting to force democracy upon a nation because we believe that our way is the only true and right way.

Let's consider what we're risking.

We're risking mothers and fathers and brothers and sisters and friends and neighbors and teachers and the list goes on and on... so that we can get rid of ONE bad guy.

We give them the chance to live the lives we live right now, problems and all, but without the worries of random torture, imprisonment, or death.

We're not liberating anyone. We're 'changing the regime'. Given any thought to the new one waiting in line? Think it's gonna be better?

<snip>

But what seems most important to me is that we are doing this in the way we always have in the US and the way we likely always will - giving ourselves to give complete strangers life and liberty. Is it worth it? I believe it is.


Just because they're calling the War "Operation Iraqi Freedom' doesn't mean that's what's going on . When was the last time it was possible to FORCE freedom on someone?
 
Paganj said:
I know I'm gonna get hung for this but here goes. A human life isn't worth a dirty nickel. Life isn't precious. Where in all our arrogance do we get off thinking we have some divine right to exist? We are just animals with opposable thumbs. If all of the laws and authority dissapeared tomorrow we would degenerate into chaos and fratricide. Our ancestors didn't see life as precious. They understood that the world can wipe you out in the blink of an eye and not stop turning. Thousands die every day and no one takes notice. Our only worth in this world is what we do while we ARE here.
I like you! :) but I do value human life little higher ...a buck perhaps :D
 
The real question

The real question is, how much is Jazz Man Jim's brain worth? The answer is: $0.00.
:p
 
Re: The real question

REDWAVE said:
The real question is, how much is Jazz Man Jim's brain worth? The answer is: $0.00.
:p


Start a thread with a poll and see how many intelligent votes you'll recieve.
 
I too liked Pagan's response. That's the bottom line right there. And in that line of thought - we don't have any right to spend any lives. Let's stop it today - ok? Gunner will condescend to me cuz I'm a pacifist - but hey - we're all here together - we should try to make the best of it.
 
crazybbwgirl said:
Gunner will condescend to me cuz I'm a pacifist - but hey - we're all here together - we should try to make the best of it.

Gunner has never 'spoken' to me in a condescending manner and we have vastly opposing viewpoints.
 
well the other day he was doing that 'pat on the head' its ok if you're a pacifist - us big strong men will take care of you thing. Hey - if the world didn't have any idealists we'd all still be living in caves.
 
JazzManJim said:

I understand all of this, yet I still believe that we are justified in spending those lives in Iraq. But why? The answer for me is simple (to explain, though not simple in the consideration I had to make to arrive at the decision). I am willing to spend their lives because in doing so, we are able to purchase the lives of millions. By standing them in the way of a truly evil man and risking them we are buying the lives of the Iraqi people. And we're not buying those lives for ourselves. We're buying those lives so that they can live them as they will. We are doing what our fathers and mothers did before us, and theirs before them. We are giving our soldiers one at a time to buy the freedom of millions.

Let's consider what we're risking.If, given the number of soldiers we have in the conflict at present, our armies were to suffer the losses we have suffered in most of our other wars we will lose one out of every thirteen soldiers. We do not believe that our losses could be that large, but they may. This means that we may lose approximately 17,000 soldiers in Iraq. That's an awfully big number. We may not be ready for that, given the successes we had there before, and in places like Grenada, Haiti, Bosnia, Panama, and even Somalia. Consider though, that in spending those 17,000 lives, we buy the lives of 24 or so million people. We give them the chance to live the lives we live right now, problems and all, but without the worries of random torture, imprisonment, or death.

Here's the million dollar question.
Are you willing to spend your own life so easily?
Let’s consider what you’re risking while you sit there on your sanctimonious ass in the comfort of your own home! Gee it’s such a long list, so to make sure this thread doesn’t go on for ever, I’ll have to condense it to one line.

SWEET FUCK ALL!
 
Re: Re: Spending Lives

bigrednz said:
Let’s consider what you’re risking while you sit there on your sanctimonious ass in the comfort of your own home! Gee it’s such a long list, so to make sure this thread doesn’t go on for ever, I’ll have to condense it to one line.

SWEET FUCK ALL!

Since you purport to know something about me, I'm loathe to correct you.

But, for the last 14 years I've worked in a position which has placed by life and safety at risk several times.

I know exactly what it is like to be in the position of sending people into a place where they could die to save just one single life. I don't know if you do or not. I understand having to be that involved in a life or death situation. I know exactly what sacrifices it takes for each one of you to sit and read this in safety and security because I've seen them.

So, politely, I say, Fuck you. You think I'm sanctimonious? At least I've given the subject some real thought. At least I've considered whether freedom, safety, and security - not only for us but for other human beings - is worth human lives. That seems far more than your knee-jerk reaction indicates you've done.
 
Not true...war has solved many things...Only it's usually been at the total annihilation of a people.

The true successes in war have been at total cost where lives or a sense of safety was so decimated that well one side won. I don't pretend to quantify or qualify that success.


My only complaints on war, other than it being a horrible disease is that the truth is never seen or rarely used. Would it be enough to say that the "Butcher of Baghdad" is an atrocity and go after him for that?? Sounds like an FBI most wanted thing.

I'm just short on trust, I guess.
 
Re: Re: Re: Spending Lives

JazzManJim said:
Since you purport to know something about me, I'm loathe to correct you.

But, for the last 14 years I've worked in a position which has placed by life and safety at risk several times.

Yeah, I guess it can be pretty dangerous answering the phone.

I know exactly what it is like to be in the position of sending people into a place where they could die to save just one single life. I don't know if you do or not. I understand having to be that involved in a life or death situation. I know exactly what sacrifices it takes for each one of you to sit and read this in safety and security because I've seen them.

It's a lot easier to send someone else to do the dirty work than to do it your self.

So, politely, I say, Fuck you. You think I'm sanctimonious? At least I've given the subject some real thought. At least I've considered whether freedom, safety, and security - not only for us but for other human beings - is worth human lives. That seems far more than your knee-jerk reaction indicates you've done.

Don't assume, because I choose to take issue with your opinion, that I haven't "given the subject some real thought"
 
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