sickening simply sickening

[Tabby432]

Willing & Unsure, I'm sorry that you've had so much to deal with at such a young age. You should be proud of yourself for dealing with your problems... it's not easy. Good luck to you.

Promoting alcohol? That's ridiculous. Do you really think that children are that impressionable?

It would have been far more productive if the teacher had addressed the situation with a quick talk about the inappropriate behavior. That's all this situation called for.

Had that child or any other actually brought alcohol to school is an entirely different situation. Something that would require punishment.

 

[InSaNe]

WHen I posted about getting suspeneded and all that I was just trying to lighten the mood sorry if it offended

 

[Pokerman]

Again though....do you punish a kid for pretending that a pen is a cigarette?

Thank goodness I grew up before all this crap. Kids today can't play cops or robbers, or cowboys and indians (both staples of the playground when i grew up) because pointing your finger at someone might be consituted as a threat.

I had a Spanish teacher in HS...who used to give us a "finger gun and wink" as a greeting (hard to explain like this, point your finger as a gun, pull the trigger and wink...) it was a harmless greeting, or 'salute' for a job well done...today he'd probably be suspended....

if you are on antibiotics and have to bring the pills to schools b/c you're supposed to take them with meals, will you get suspended for promoting drug use?

 

[Calamity Jane]

Well, what if one student confesses to a good friend her dream about a discussion of the big bang theory with the captain of the football team (an easier scenario to believe than the captain of the debate team)?

I dunno... I always had the hots for several male members of the debate team in high school. Nothin like an intelligent, articulate guy to get the juices flowing!

Take a closer look at zero-tolerance policies. What is the purpose? The purpose, my friends, is to shield and protect government school administrators from actually having to exercise rational thought process in reviewing student conduct to see if it warrants punishment or not. The purpose is to make the administrator’s jobs easier. A equals B and B equals suspension. No thought -- No consideration -- No review of the facts -- No deliberation -- No thinking --- just acting. A perfect word for the typical government employee to inhabit.

Isn't it possible that zero tolerance policies are a reaction by the school districts to lawsuit happy parents? If the school suspends Joe for behavior Y but lets Sally get away with it, do you honestly think Joe's parents are going to let it slide?

How is it a bad thing to teach kids that behaviors have direct and unarguable consequences? Kids need to learn that some things can't be bargained/argued away, and thinking before they act just might be a good idea.

 

[Willing and Unsure]

Promoting alcohol? That's ridiculous. Do you really think that children are that impressionable?
It would have been far more productive if the teacher had addressed the situation with a quick talk about the inappropriate behavior. That's all this situation called for.
Had that child or any other actually brought alcohol to school is an entirely different situation. Something that would require punishment.

they may not be that impressionable, but they are showing others that they can do it. and from what i remember as a child, everyone always wanted that one thing that someone else had. and if that means that one kid is drinking, than more than likely the others will want to as well. its not just a joke anymore. its like taking the toy gun to school when you're 6 years old. that is a huge mistake and very punishable by the school.

 

[InSaNe]

Now any antibotics you have to have your doctor fill out a form and the prescription then ya gotta give the bottle to the school nurse and she/he sticks it in a envelope and locks it away until its time for your kid to take it might be even tighter now thats just how it was when I was in school .

 

[Willing and Unsure]

if you are on antibiotics and have to bring the pills to schools b/c you're supposed to take them with meals, will you get suspended for promoting drug use?

yes you can actually.. if you have to take medication while you're at school, you have to have a doctor's note and a parent has to bring the medication in to the nurse's office. and in the nurse's office is where they will distribute the medication to you. if you are caught with a bottle of advil or tylenol for a headache (or whatever) they constitute that as promoting drug use and you will be punished for it.

 

[InSaNe]

yup yup get a migraine at school your screwed....teachers or nurse can't give you anything for it.....which I can see this being you might be allergic to something they give you landing them in a shit load of trouble

 

[Tabby432]

they may not be that impressionable, but they are showing others that they can do it. and from what i remember as a child, everyone always wanted that one thing that someone else had. and if that means that one kid is drinking, than more than likely the others will want to as well. its not just a joke anymore. its like taking the toy gun to school when you're 6 years old. that is a huge mistake and very punishable by the school.

By all means.. give the kids grape juice.

Just because you can be punished.. doesn't mean that you should be.

 

[Calamity Jane]

Re: Re: Re: Re: GB

How bout it guys? You parents out there, specifically ones of teens. Do you tell them not to do what you do? Do they listen? Ever wonder why they might NOT be listening?

I don't have teenagers yet, but eventually both my girls will be. *shudder*... i don't know how i'll adress the drinking/smoking issue. right now, Wild and Unruly know that beer, etc is for grown ups only. When they're older, they'll be made aware of the consequences of drinking when underage, and that smoking isn't the healthiest choice. But I'm not going to be a hypocrite and tell them not to do it, or punish them for doing it. All I can do is give them the info and expect them to make the right decisions. If they haven't learned how to do that by the time they're in high school, how much good is mom punishing them going to do?

I fucked up in high school too. My junior year, I missed more days of school than the entire senior class combined. I managed not to get dropped from classes because I was getting good grades. When the principal called me into his office and informed me that I was over the allowed # of abscences in almost every class, and had to be dropped from them, I laughed. I told him that there was no way he could justify kicking me out of classes that I was getting A's and B's in. That if he kicked me out of school, he'd be losing a kid that was bringing in extra $ for the school because I was in the Gifted program. He looked shocked, but agreed. As long as my grades didn't drop below B's, I would remain on the class rosters.

Should I have been allowed to get away with my behavior? I think I'd kill a principal that let my kids get away with that.

 

[Willing and Unsure]

By all means.. give the kids grape juice.

Just because you can be punished.. doesn't mean that you should be.

i'm not saying punish the kid for having grape juice... its punish the kid for promoting alcohol at school.. there's a big difference there in my head.. if someone had of ever punished me for being drunk at school, things sure would be different now

 

[miles]

"None yet, but you know what Miles? 4 years ago, I was one. I know what kids today think, because I was one. I know what I saw in my parents, and my school.

Tell me Miles, how long has it been since you have been one?

People of older generations like to say they were the same then as kids today.

Tell me, Miles, was it easier for you to score drugs in high school, then it was to get alcohol? Because it is now.

Just about any kid can 'score' pot if they want to try it. Ask your daughter straight forward how many friends she knows who claim to have tried pot. In most cases now, it's not what they claim, but what they do."

==============================================

Gilly:
When I was in high school it was customary to smoke a joint before school, between periods, after lunch, and after school.
We had football practice and played games while we were stoned. Kids were shooting up heroin in the rest rooms and dropping acid during first period. We would also drink when we left school grounds for lunch, because for a short while, the drinking age was 18. I didn't have to "score" pot. It was so cheap we gave it to each other.

What's your point?

 

[Gilly Bean]

i'm not saying punish the kid for having grape juice... its punish the kid for promoting alcohol at school.. there's a big difference there in my head.. if someone had of ever punished me for being drunk at school, things sure would be different now

Now that I am back, and catching up with the thread, I agree still.


Tabby, you are attacking us saying that we both said the punishment fit the crime. I know damn well, I didn't say that, and if you think I did, then why not try READING the posts I made.

I said specifically a few times that I do not think the punishment was correct for the crime, but that I do believe schools DO need to have a NO TOLERANCE policy.

If I found out my child's school had anything less then a zero tolerance, I would transfer them to one that did.

No, I am not suggesting that anyone without my attitude towards this is a bad parent, or unconcerned with the nature of this.

However, I am concerned that some parents feel it alright for their middle age students to promote alcohol.

Reguardless of what you think is the difference in pretending, and doing, she was advertising alcohol as being the cool thing to do. You can bet your ass if my daughter came home, and told me she wanted to take wine to school because another girl 'said' she had some, I would be in the school as fast as my ass can carry me, demanding to know why the student wasn't talked to.

In my mind, talking with the student, and possibly a detention would have sufficed, but reguardless, I support fully the zero tolerance.

I don't know you, Tabby, and I don't want to presume anything about you, but with the attitude you are taking in this, in suggesting that it is alright for students to promote alcohol (even if it is only in pretense), then I have no other conclusion then to think you likely find nothing wrong with drinking at a young age.

I know, no one is perfect. I am sure 99% of high schoolers now, and in the past, have all experimented with alcohol, and smoking, and some (to a hopefully lesser precentage) with drugs. Just because 90% of kids have done it, does that make it right?

There is a point where we have to stop letting it be alright. If a teacher were to have ignored it all together, it would have sent a very strong message to the kids she was with, and to the parents of those kids. Neither message would have been a positive one. When it comes to kids, I know, I am WAY overly oppinionated. But, I would prefer to be a very oppinionated parent, to those who are unable to speak up for thier kids.

Kids at that young age ARE impressionable. Why else are there fads? Clothing trends? Why does my little girl get jealous when someone else has a 'cool' notebook? Kids look at thier peers, and at thier parents for what they should do. If a friend comes to school wearing a new brand of jeans, for instance, they can become instantly popular, or instantly uncool just by the name brand. At my school, the popular kids ruled. They pretty much made the trends just by picking what to wear to school, and how to wear thier hair. They were the first to try something new. Ok, maybe not the first, but they were the ones who mattered. I never followed that crowd, and because I didn't, I was never very popular. I never have had a ton of friends. I usually have 2, maybe 3 friends at a time. But I knew when I was young that the reason I wasn't cool, was because my parents got me the wrong cloths. The wrong lunch box, or whatever.

Reguardless to the belief that kids do as they please, they don't. They follow around in packs. You have a leader, maybe two, and the rest are the followers. Had that girl been a leader, she would have started a big trend in kids thinking about how cool it was that she was drinking 'wine'. Sure, we know it was pretend. But if the someone hadn't told, or hadn't caught her, would her friends have recognized the difference? It sets a large precidence in what kids think, when one child starts doing something new.

Does everyone share my veiws? Hell no. I wouldn't expect them to. I would be more frightened had I gotten 25 people all say, Yes, I agree completely. That in and of itself would show a lack of free thinking, and I am a big promoter of free will, and free thinking.



Basically, though I have said it before already, my stance is this:

Do I agree with the ultimate punishment?
No
Do I agree with the zero tolerance rule?
Yes
Do I think it's a promotion of alcohol amongst kids?
Yes
Do I think kids at ANY age are impressionable?
Hell yes, they are.


That's all, I guess. Anyone who wants to challenge me anymore, feel free, but I believe that my stance is well stated in the MANY previous threads I have put on here.

 

[Gilly Bean]

Gilly:
When I was in high school it was customary to smoke a joint before school, between periods, after lunch, and after school.
We had football practice and played games while we were stoned. Kids were shooting up heroin in the rest rooms and dropping acid during first period. We would also drink when we left school grounds for lunch, because for a short while, the drinking age was 18. I didn't have to "score" pot. It was so cheap we gave it to each other.

What's your point?

My point is, had you and your friends been caught at an early age, perhaps that wouldn't have happened. Have you ever thought to WHY your daughters school has to have that policy? Ask them sometime why they have it. Chances are, it is because a few bad apples did some of the stuff you mentioned, and the angry parents wanted it to end. I guess if it is a bullshit rule to you, transfer your daughter to a school that doesn't give a flying fuck if the kids are shooting up, smoking, or drinkig in school. Maybe that will be a better overall environment for your daughter.

 

[Nogard]

Whoooooooa!!!!!! Some parents of pre-teen children are in for a rude awakening in several years.

 

[modest mouse]

I enjoy mocking the South. They often assist me to a degree I need not open my mouth.

 

[teresafannin]

I raised a teenager, who wasn't perfect, but was a good kid. He was raised to understand that the punishment should fit the crime. When he got a curfew violation & a minor in possession of alcohol charge, we did Teen Court, community service & he didn't get to take Driver's Ed until all of it was done. All of this happened within a 6 month period of time. We were going through a difficult period. His step-dad had moved out after 10 years of being with us & it was very hard for Justin. His birth father had never been involved in his life & for his step dad to leave was devastating. I went to both court appearances, was a part of the community service & let him know that I loved him dearly, but that he had to pay the consequences. I paid the fines & he worked it off, doing lots of odd jobs & babysitting. When he had his job interview, the manager asked why he wanted the job & he was honest. He said, "I want a car & my mom says I have to have a job, but I'll work hard & do the best I can." The parents of the boys that got into trouble with him went to the court appearances & then, life went on. The kids didn't learn anything & two of them have continued to get into trouble. Most of the schools here in Texas have a zero tolerance policy & in several cities, the policies came about in answer to lawsuits brought by parents. The alcohol at the prom case is a classic. A group of jocks & cheerleaders got caught with alcohol & pot in the limo, got busted, suspended from school & one of the moms sued our high school. Her reasoning was that if her daughter had to attend alternate school, it would be bad for her reputation. This woman hadn't a clue as to what her daughter was doing most of the time. Those kids found a willing adult to buy the alcohol & one of the girls had a major pot stash in her car. Luckily, the judge found in favor of the school & made the mom pay all court costs. It has come to the point where far too many parents are too busy to deal with their kids, it shouldn't be up to the schools. I think the punishment should fit the crime & in the case in Georgia, the punishment is too severe, but until parents wake up, nothing is going to change. Of course, I am not an expert , just a mom who did the best she could in the short time I had with my son. But then, we should remember, that the people who know the best ways to raise kids don't have any of their own.

 

[Thumper]

Zero Tolerance...

Is a perfect example of why fear is our worst enemy.

I have raised one child to pseudo adulthood and am in the process of raisng two teenage boys.

GB you asked about our own children hanging around someone who would joke abouty it being wine. My oldest son has a few friends that are into the "pot" scene. He knows how to think for himself...we taught him that. We also taught him to use critical thinking and how to resist peer pressure. It is possible to associate with people and not assume their habits. Some of my friends are chronic drug users...that is their business.

Zero tolerance dumbs down the whole system until it resembles a barnyard full of hens scrambling in fear when a leaf falls to the ground.

BTW...my son looks like the biggest slacker in school....While every one is keeping their eyes on him the jocks and preps and otherwise "good kids" are getting loaded and stoned at their overachieving-double income-gotta have the two SUV's and huge house parents houses.

Where have ya gone Archie Bunker...a fearful nation turns it's crying eyes to you.

What we really need is a sense of humor and perspective...and a little backbone.

Drugs and alcohol have been around for ages and will always be...Just be with your kids and set a good example and everything will be fine. Let them be who they want to be...but set limits.

My mother had an absolute cow when we allowed our then 17 year old daughter get her tongue pierced. She said I had better put the reins on her or next thing ya know she would be wearing black nail polish and all that sorta horrid stuff. My wife and I weren't exactly thrilled at the idea but since the only valid reason we had against it was our queasiness, we decided to allow it. The real positive note in all this is that "SHE CAME TO US" and asked instead of going behind our backs. She is a sophmore in college now and getting A's and B's and as far as I know she still hasn't used any black nail polish.

Joking about grape juice being wine is so......harmless. Nine days suspension is fucking ludicrous.

 

[login]

Do I agree with the ultimate punishment?
No
Do I agree with the zero tolerance rule?
Yes

The first statement is a direct contradiction of the second. The Zero Tolerance policy hysteria means everything gets the ultimate punishment.

I've raised teenagers. I taught them to use their minds, their judgement, their own ethics. I didn't teach them to live life according to some idiot bureaucrat's rulebook. I taught them to be fair with others, and stand up to people that weren't being fair to them.

Frankly, it sickens me to see people so willing to kowtow to obviously stupid rules; so eager to teach their kids to do the same.

But you know what? I'm willing to let you raise your kids like you want. That's your right as a parent. Just don't try to kick my kids out of school for making a joke about drinking wine, or any of the other jillion ways to break the zero tolerance/zero sense rules.

 

[Calamity Jane]

LMAO at the thought of black nail pilish and all that horrid stuff...

in high school, my head was shaved, my nose was peirced, i dressed like a punk, i cut class, smoked pot, drank during oceanology when i bothered to go, and i got mostly A's with a B thrown in for flavor.

I wholeheartedly believe that kids are going to do whatever they want to do. Again, give them the info, let them make the decisions, and let them deal with the consequences.

None of my behavior was my parent's fault. I chose what I was doing every step of the way, and I never lied about it to anyone. Did I pay prices? Of course. I sailed through high school with almost no effort. And that was taking college level courses. But I never learned how to study, I never learned that sometimes it's necessary to actually attend class, and I have vitually no short term memory. Would I do it the same if I had it to do again? Probably, because they were some of the best times I've ever had.

No, I don't think that what happened deserved a suspension.

 

[Gilly Bean]

Ok, let's try looking at it this way.


Student A is 10 years old. Student B is 10 years old. Both are students in the same school, and class.

Student A has parents who are very lax, and unconcerned with what she sees in the home. IE, Alcohol is always present, same with smoking. Occasional drug use has been seen by student A.

Student B has parents who have always been conscious of what the child sees, and has explained the wrongs and rights of anything questionable.

Student A thinks it would be neat to tell a fib and make her friends think she is doing something she isn't.

Student B thinks it is cool to be doing something she shouldn't, and tells all her friends about it.

Because the teachers know the home life, should they assume worse of student A, then student B? Should they treat either cases different because of the background? In most cases, the background would win out. Student A would be in trouble, while B would not. However, in my case, A was not the wrong one, B was.

What Zero Tolerance does, is remove that factor of doubt. At the begining of every school year, students are given a handbook of rules. Parents are often required to sign them, stating that they have read through them with thier child, and they understand the rules. As the child gets older, the child signs the book themselves.

What that policy is in place for, is the parents and students who disagree with something, and wish to sue the school over it. Should they have every right to agrue a rule? Yes, but now days, most schools take that, and have you do it right off the bat, at the begining. If I signed something saying my daughter wasn't allowed to wear jeans to school (which she isn't), then I have no right to get angry later on when she goes in with jeans, and gets sent home from school for it. I am not a huge fan of dress codes like she has. She is borderline wearing a uniform. However, when I approached that particular school, and wanted her to go there, I knew she would have to abide by the rules.

Every single parent who sends a child to school in the USA knows that student will have rules they need to abide by. They agree to it when they send thier child to that school. Some opt for a private school, or a charter school, or even home schooling. However, the element is all the same. Our children have a set of rules in a learning environment, and when those rules are broken, they will be punished for them. I agree completly that 9 days of suspension is harsh. I think a detention, and getting talked to WITH the parents would suffice. However, if it were my daughter who someday got in trouble for this same reason, I would have to say that the school has every right to punish as it sees fit, so long as it does not abuse the child at all.

For those who stated the 'coolness' factor of being suspended. Do you think the child at home for 9 days with cranky parents is ALl that concerned about how popular she is? Since it apparently made the news, then I have to assume in this case, the parents are fighting it. That is thier option, however, I disagree with that, since they agree to school rules the day thier daughter started at that school.

You don't like the rules, find another place to go. I live in a relativly small town, of 18k people. Small, because about 75% of those people are college students. STILL, in a town this size, when I was signing my daughter up for Kindergarten last spring, I had the choice of two charter schools, 3 private church schools (2 catholic, one babtist), and 4 public kindergartns. Not to mention, in the state of Michigan, I am not even required to send my child to school until the 1st grade. (Very old archiac rule that most people don't know, and almost no one takes advantage of)

I know that if something at her charter school were to happen that I did not like, I could always switch schools. The choices wittle down as the student gets older, but even in high school, there are still 2 private schools, one charter, one alternative, and one public.

The rules are openly stated for everyone the day they start school. If you don't agree to them, then don't send your child to that school. If there isn't another school to send them to, home school them. Parents today can't sit there and say they are not aware of the rules. If they are not aware of them, then that really shows something about how close attention you are paying to school in general.

 

[Thumper]

As I see it

The whole problem with zero tolerance systems like this is that no one really knows the rules. They are made up as we go along.

Next thing you know they will suspend a student for drinking her milk through a straw because some raging prude of a teacher claims the kid was simulating oral sex.

Too ambiguous. If the drink was actually alcohol...bust them..if not..get a life.

 

[Gilly Bean]

Ok, just thought of a new angle to explain why I think the way i do.



How many people out there, parents or not, old, young, whatever, have ever looked at teens today, and said something along the lines of:

I can't believe kids today get away with that shit. When I was growing up... yada yada yada....


How many have looked at teens today and thought something along the lines of:

If I were that kids parents....





Well, you know what, after reading this thread, and reading how lax a lot of people are on the alcohol/smoking/drug issue with kids, my only responce is:


GET A FUCKING CLUE, HOW THE HELL DO YOU THINK THEY GOT THAT WAY!

 

[freakygirl]

*backs out of the thread*

 

[login]

I can't believe kids today get away with that shit. When I was growing up...

...I have it on good authority that many Egyptian heiroglyphs say the same thing. Seriously, my parents said the same think about my generation. Their parents said it about them, and so on, and so on.

GET A FUCKING CLUE, HOW THE HELL DO YOU THINK THEY GOT THAT WAY!

BTDT, Got the clue, got the staying-up-late-night-worried-cause they-werent-supposed-be-out-that-late blues got the t-shirt.

Got a couple of pretty decent kids that can think for themselves.

You?