Shame and Humiliation

[cloudy]

JILL!

Which one was Jill?????

I can't remember.

 

[Stella_Omega]

JILL!

A set of archetypes for our time-- add the Brady Bunch, and Gilligan's island and what more do you need?

And these are all ancient, in the current sense of the word....

 

[xssve]

If he'd only grow up enough to know when to STFU. Apparently, he didn't learn that when he had the opportunity.

You mean you'll resume boring me to death with your limited stock of insults (child, moron, fuckwit, and a smll number of variations)? You still seem to have trouble making an on topic post or saying anything meaningful outside of this, and you'll continue it interminably, which makes you a real bore. I'll check back when and if this threadjack peters out, I do have that much of a life.

Try to keep yourselves amused, will you?

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Doc,

Thank you for explaining what I have always suspected about the male/female relationship on a much deeper level.

The mysterious quality of women has confounded man for eons and was the reason behind suppressing women and their natural powers.

You forgot to add that women are not, by design, made to perform the necessary act for sexuall intercourse, namely get and keep a hard- on and maybe get another one in less than a hour. If women had to do this, I wonder if there would be female sex drugs to assist in the older years.

This burden plus the immense desire to "do it right" makes for intense pressure on the male. All I have to do is look interested. At first...

Allard

Yes. Before I say anything else, i suppose I should specify that I'm speaking only for myself here, poor benighted, unenlighted sexist throwback that I am, but this man is very stupidly egotistical when it comes to sex and that there is a good deal of pressure and feeling of competition involved in it, at least in the most memorable encounters. Not always, of course, and I'm as capable of simple fooling around as anyone else, but generally the amount of satisfaction I take from a sexual engagement seems to be proportional to the amount of tension I take into it. It's like winding a spring to let it release. A flaccid spring doesn't give you much kick.

But because you're dealing in a high-tension environment, there's fear and anxiety involved, and I don't know if women are aware that men are often afraid of them. To me, this is a large part of the rationale of BDSM: a man trying to symbolically control a woman's sexual power over him, trying to deal with his fear of her. You can call that a castration fear or just a general fear of women, or maybe just a very healthy respect for her power, but the idea is you have to take that dangerous and overwhelming desire she generates and impose a sense of controlling masculine order upon it. You control her. That's what the whole game is about: controlling the thing that controls you, male self-preservation. I think the sub plays along because basically, she's flattered to know she has such power.

The male fear of women is very subtle and unconscious, though, and most men aren't even aware of it, but you see it not only in male anger and distrust of women but by overcompensation too, where they go the other way into the gentleman syndrome and put women on pedestals and become sycophantic gynophiles. I mean, a person's entitled to respect, sure, but not just by virtue of their gender.

There are other contributers to the fear, in my opinion. I think the fact that every man has gone through some pretty heavy experiences with his mother has something to do with it, the fact that we still see women as mothers. I think men also feel some very subtle but definite guilt about the sex act too, about the act of penetration. But mostly I think it's that castration fear.

 

[cloudy]

You'll resume boring me tho death with your limited stock of insults (child, moron, fuckwit, and a smll number of variations) - you still seem to have trouble making an on topic post or saying anything meaningful outside of this, and you'll continue it interminably, which makes you a real bore. I'll check back when and if this threadjack peters out, I do have that much of a life.

Try to keep yourselves amused, will you?

nevermind...so not worth it.

I begin to understand. I'd drink, too.

 

[xssve]

I somehow managed, for better or worse, to avoid a great deal of that male enculturation, being, in some respects, by accident or design, a strange and solitary child - and I've always taken my sexual inspiration from lesbians rather than other men - they seem to manage nicely without any dick at all.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I somehow managed, for better or worse, to avoid a great deal of that male enculturation, being, in some respects, by accident or design, a strange and solitary child - and I've always taken my sexual inspiration from lesbians rather than other men - they seem to manage nicely without any dick at all.

That's one way to avoid Doc's castration fear!

Freud has SO much to answer for. I know he was important in bringing the concept of mental medicine to to the world, but-- omigod, look at the load of bullshit he and his followers have shoved onto perfectly normal men!

Used to be the only men who worried about castration were talking about swords. Men who talked about vaginas with teeth in them soon learned that wasn't true. Freud gave you guys instructions on how to remain infantile your entire lives. He had a set of weird ideas in his own brain, and he remade men in his own image.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

That's one way to avoid Doc's castration fear!

Freud has SO much to answer for. I know he was important in bringing the concept of mental medicine to to the world, but-- omigod, look at the load of bullshit he and his followers have shoved onto perfectly normal men!

Used to be the only men who worried about castration were talking about swords. Men who talked about vaginas with teeth in them soon learned that wasn't true. Freud gave you guys instructions on how to remain infantile your entire lives. He had a set of weird ideas in his own brain, and he remade men in his own image.

The nineteenth century produced three greatly influential minds, Darwin, Marx and Freud. It is to the species eternal disgrace that in spite of the neo-religious devotion they inspired, two of them are simply dead wrong. Just take Marx and Freud out of the collective conciousness and concentrate on Darwin and we will all do a lot better.

So enough of this silly nonsense of 'castration fear'. Unless you're name is Bobbett and you are a complete jerk to begin with, you have nothing to worry about. Loneliness fear is a lot more rational.

 

[AllardChardon]

Sorry, Volupt, I want to continue my discussion with the Doc about the castration complex. We are doing what this thread was intended to do, having a cilvilized discussion of often overlooked subjects.

First, women in their power.

I have power over men. I have always known this, especially after puberty kicked in and very effectively, at that. I was a 36 26 36 at 14. It started with my father. He was attracted to me and I knew it. I have discussed this in other threads so I will not cover it here, other than to say I feel no shame about what happened.

Over the years men have "confessed" their longing for me, sometimes for years, without my knowing. I ask why they don't let me know they are interested, and it is the same answer. They respond that they are afraid I will not like them and they would rather fantacize that I might, given the chance, than the truth. I figure their loss. I am America and need to be discovered, quoting Romy in the movie Romy and Michelle's 10th High School Reunion. Faint hearts doth not win fair lady in my book, anyway.

Women tied up:

Yes, men are trying to control themselves through controlling the woman and her power over him. But for the woman, she NEEDS to be dethroned. It is lonely at the top and once in a while, it is great to wallow in the mud...

And bondage has a wonderful way of reminding women that we are sexual beasts, here for sexual service, that fiercely desire to be used and used and used... if we can just find the men to use us...

 

[Safe_Bet]

Sorry, Volupt, I want to continue my discussion with the Doc about the castration complex. We are doing what this thread was intended to do, having a cilvilized discussion of often overlooked subjects.

First, women in their power.

I have power over men. I have always known this, especially after puberty kicked in and very effectively, at that. I was a 36 26 36 at 14. It started with my father. He was attracted to me and I knew it. I have discussed this in other threads so I will not cover it here, other than to say I feel no shame about what happened.

Over the years men have "confessed" their longing for me, sometimes for years, without my knowing. I ask why they don't let me know they are interested, and it is the same answer. They respond that they are afraid I will not like them and they would rather fantacize that I might, given the chance, than the truth. I figure their loss. I am America and need to be discovered, quoting Romy in the movie Romy and Michelle's 10th High School Reunion. Faint hearts doth not win fair lady in my book, anyway.

Women tied up:

Yes, men are trying to control themselves through controlling the woman and her power over him. But for the woman, she NEEDS to be dethroned. It is lonely at the top and once in a while, it is great to wallow in the mud...

And bondage has a wonderful way of reminding women that we are sexual beasts, here for sexual service, that fiercely desire to be used and used and used... if we can just find the men to use us...

Uummm. No.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Sorry, Volupt, I want to continue my discussion with the Doc about the castration complex. We are doing what this thread was intended to do, having a cilvilized discussion of often overlooked subjects.

First, women in their power.

I have power over men. I have always known this, especially after puberty kicked in and very effectively, at that. I was a 36 26 36 at 14. It started with my father. He was attracted to me and I knew it. I have discussed this in other threads so I will not cover it here, other than to say I feel no shame about what happened.

Over the years men have "confessed" their longing for me, sometimes for years, without my knowing. I ask why they don't let me know they are interested, and it is the same answer. They respond that they are afraid I will not like them and they would rather fantacize that I might, given the chance, than the truth. I figure their loss. I am America and need to be discovered, quoting Romy in the movie Romy and Michelle's 10th High School Reunion. Faint hearts doth not win fair lady in my book, anyway.

Women tied up:

Yes, men are trying to control themselves through controlling the woman and her power over him. But for the woman, she NEEDS to be dethroned. It is lonely at the top and once in a while, it is great to wallow in the mud...

And bondage has a wonderful way of reminding women that we are sexual beasts, here for sexual service, that fiercely desire to be used and used and used... if we can just find the men to use us...

I don't see that a fear of the word "no" is equal to the fear of castration. Anyone who is so afraid of being turned down that they sit and take no action . . . like you said, their loss.

What's lacking, badly, is a sense of humor, IMO. Sex is the best game Creation ever came up with. Why not play? We can delve historically into the reasons for inhibition but they really don't matter. Feelings are choices. If you don't like what you (rhetorical, not personal, you) feel, chose something else.

Maybe I'm just not smart enough for angst or something. I don't get those who have it.

 

[xssve]

The nineteenth century produced three greatly influential minds, Darwin, Marx and Freud. It is to the species eternal disgrace that in spite of the neo-religious devotion they inspired, two of them are simply dead wrong. Just take Marx and Freud out of the collective conciousness and concentrate on Darwin and we will all do a lot better.

So enough of this silly nonsense of 'castration fear'. Unless you're name is Bobbett and you are a complete jerk to begin with, you have nothing to worry about. Loneliness fear is a lot more rational.

Ah, how we huddle close around the campfire, in mutual defense against the vast, impenetrable darkness that lies outside the flickering circle, that seems ample one moment, impossibly small and fragile the next - we dare not even speak of it, it does have teeth, and they are as sharp as razors, it's breath fetid and carrion, and small, unseen, chittering things scurry amongst it's miasma, and clotted fur - but we laughingly mock that dark, boundless void, it can't hurt us here...

I gotta take a piss, anybody need a beer?

 

[AllardChardon]

Volupt,

I appreciate your consistent desire for fun in sex. Did you study Bacchus and find a mentor there? I, personally, think your attitude is very healthy, happy and sexy. But, I must admit, I know angst all too well.

Safe Bet, I apologize for the "men" remark. I need to say "dominant person whom I can trust" in that space, instead. Thanks for keeping me on track.

Allard

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I don't see that a fear of the word "no" is equal to the fear of castration. Anyone who is so afraid of being turned down that they sit and take no action . . . like you said, their loss.

What's lacking, badly, is a sense of humor, IMO. Sex is the best game Creation ever came up with. Why not play? We can delve historically into the reasons for inhibition but they really don't matter. Feelings are choices. If you don't like what you (rhetorical, not personal, you) feel, chose something else.

Maybe I'm just not smart enough for angst or something. I don't get those who have it.

The part I've bolded there is probably the biggest difference between you and me. For me, feelings are definitely not choices; they're givens. I'm a slave to my emotions, for better or worse, as are most of the people I know, to a greater or lesser extent. I admit, I seem to be an extreme case, which has its good points but which definitely has its bad, too. But no, you don't get to choose your feelings. They're handed to you and you deal with them as best you can, and some people go mad trying to do just that. This is a serious business

Of course sex has its humorous side, but it also has its dark and painful and dangerous side. If you've never experienced that, VM, then more power to you, but I have to think you're kind of exceptional. For most of us, almost any sexual encounter has the potential to be a life-changing event. We might fall hopelessly in love; we might have our self-image shattered; we might learn something about ourselves we never dreamt was true. During sex we're naked and vulnerable like we are at no other time ion our lives, and right at a time when emotions are running at a fever pitch. Things happen.

In any case, it's the dark and painful side of sex we're discussing here in talking about shame and humiliation and the fear of castration, and these aren't the kind of emotions you can just tune out or choose not to feel.

 

[AllardChardon]

I have been a slave to my emotions. Anger used to have big power over me. Now I try to use anger like a sword sheathed at my side, as little as possible.

 

[xssve]

I think it's a very valid point, and the national obsession over ED and size underscores the point - both these things are the subject of extensive marketing campaigns, and advertising/market professionals are pretty much the mainstream of psychoanalytics these days - they look for any weakness that will sell a product, and if they see it, that means it's probably there - particularly the pharmaceutical industry who are on many ways on the top of the corporate food chain, they're huge holding companies, and if you trace ownership for any company, a good part of the time you're going to end up with a big pharmaceutical - they have enormous resources at their disposal, and if there isn't a demand, they know how to create it.

And, of course, ED marketing, and not a little of the "male enhancement" marketing is clearly directed at the middle age+ demo, these sorts of insecurities tend to increase as we age - another great argument against gender generalities, I'm a completely different person in many ways than I was at 18, or 21, or 31, etc., and ten years from now I'll probably have a whole new set of issues that haven't even occurred to me yet.

But it's probably occurred to the pharmaceutical industry.

Anyway, I have had personal experiences, I don't always get hard right away, I sort of gain momentum as I go, and a couple of times women have become solicitous: "oh, it's ok, don't worry about it", and I'm like "shut up bitch, I'm just getting started", lol, "you ain't going no-wheh".

It sort of breaks my concentration, I like to take my time - you don't like it, you do the work - anyway, It's always been cool,. I've never had a woman get vicious about it, my first girlfriend got pretty pissed once when I got off too soon, but hey, I was 16, whattya expect - course at that age, I didn't even go soft till at least the second orgasm, and that wasn't long.

I dunno, women are a little less demanding these days, and it's nice, takes a lot of the pressure off, I mean, it's social intercourse right? the goal is to have an enjoyable time, enjoy the pleasure of each others company - after you get to know each other a little better you can get into the sexual athletics and stuff to keep it interesting - my approach anyway, but every woman is different, which is what really cracks me up about this "royal we", and sisterhood stuff, women are more diverse than men are, shit we have to stay on our toes and be creative, some of these babes are total freaks, I had one bring her fucking cousin over the next night, I kinda freaked out on that one - but the next one might be stiff as a board.

I've met some real ball busters though, you meet all kinds of people working in an adult movie store, bars, etc., cuckolding, all kinds of stuff - it's crazy shit sometimes - I've seen Navajo women beat the shit out of their men in public, those bitches are fucking crazy, those guys just sit and take it - I run, or duck or something, my ex used to beat the shit out of herself, I'd just be just dodging and blocking her, she'd be falling over furniture and all kinds of dumb shit, I had to save her from bleeding to death a couple of times after she finally passed out.

Yeah, women. You might get called a bimbo, I weep for you. Fuck, I have known some beat down women, I've half got PTSD from what I've been through, and that's like a fucking vacation for some of these women - I the movies the slpa you around a little, beat their tiny fist on your chest before collapsing in a puddle - in real life, they don't fucking stop - being called bimbos is the least of their fucking worries.

You gotta keep things in perspective.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Yeah, women. You might get called a bimbo, I weep for you. Fuck, I have known some beat down women, I've half got PTSD from what I've been through, and that's like a fucking vacation for some of these women - being called bimbos is the least of their fucking worries.

You gotta keep things in perspective.

This is on the bingo cards as the "but what about the starving Children in China?" argument. It implies that no matter what the current topic is too trivial to address, because-- well, Starving Children In China, after all!

In the drinking game, it only rates a couple of sips.

 

[xssve]

This is on the bingo cards as the "but what about the starving Children in China?" argument. It implies that no matter what the current topic is too trivial to address, because-- well, Starving Children In China, after all!

In the drinking game, it only rates a couple of sips.

Oh right, we were talking about you, sorry, got distracted I thought I was talking to the Doctor w/regard to the OP - you were saying?

 

[Safe_Bet]

xssve I can't bring myself to even get angry at you anymore. All I feel now is pity. Apparently, your issues with your wife leaving you have left you ever so bitter and hateful.

You express this hate through your demeaning of women, though your sarcasm and, when you are backed into the corner by facts, your lashing out with cursing and personal attacks. I get that. You are a lonely old man that has no love in his life. I'm sorry that you feel you need to live that way.

It must be terrible to feel the need to be so defensive. It must be tiring too, when you perceive any little disagreement with your beliefs as a vicious attack that you must defend yourself from. So let me offer you a big hug xssve in hopes that you someday might stop hating.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I'm a little confused. Are we still talking about the hideousness of being called a bimbo? The awfulness of being included in a generality? Just what's the problem here?

 

[tickledkitty]

I'm a little confused. Are we still talking about the hideousness of being called a bimbo? The awfulness of being included in a generality? Just what's the problem here?

Didn't mean to open that big ol' can of worms, did you?

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Didn't mean to open that big ol' can of worms, did you?

The bimbo-can? God, no!

But you know, something's occurred to me: The thing men are most worried about losing in sex is their masculinity, their feeling of sexual power and virility, their ability to get an erection and perform. This is, without exaggerating, probably the most important symbolic element in a man's life, the very core of his being, and the importance of this is something that a lot of women don't really understand or appreciate. Not needing to achieve and maintain an erection and having a different experience of sex, they tend to discount the importance of this to a man and can't understand why men make such a big fucking deal about it. It's just a little boner, they say. You can still have a wonderful and loving experience without it.

Yeah. Fat chance. With your whole sense of power and presence in the world gone.

I think maybe women (okay somewomen) have a similar overwhelming concern in sex though. I think somewomen seek to maintain their sense of self-respect and female integrity, or anti-bimboness at all costs. I think that, for a woman, becoming a bimbo or a whore is the worst thing that can happen to her, and is the emotional equivalent of a man's losing his masculinity.

And just like women can't understand why men find the loss of masculinity so horrifying, men can't understand why women find the concept of bimbohood so distasteful. Because men certainly have nothing against bimbos or whores. We kind of like them, in fact. They're always welcome at our parties. We can't understand what gets you so upset about the concept. For us, a bimbo is just a woman of easy virtue. We don't see the loss of self-respect and female integrity.

In any case, that's the only way I can explain this antipathy to the word bimbo. It seems to be something deep and primal, much more extreme than if you'd been called motherfuckers or cocksuckers or anything else. It's nicely symmetric that a man's fear is that he'll lose the power of his body whereas the woman's fear is that she'll be reduced to nothing more than the power of her body, and maybe I'm making too much of it because of that symmetry, but what the hell.

 

[xssve]

xssve I can't bring myself to even get angry at you anymore. All I feel now is pity. Apparently, your issues with your wife leaving you have left you ever so bitter and hateful.

You express this hate through your demeaning of women, though your sarcasm and, when you are backed into the corner by facts, your lashing out with cursing and personal attacks. I get that. You are a lonely old man that has no love in his life. I'm sorry that you feel you need to live that way.

It must be terrible to feel the need to be so defensive. It must be tiring too, when you perceive any little disagreement with your beliefs as a vicious attack that you must defend yourself from. So let me offer you a big hug xssve in hopes that you someday might stop hating.

Perhaps I was talking about you women, not all women - you identify very strongly as woman, clearly, other people are people first, and gender second, one never really does know, but it's not ever been considered rude to do it, I've overheard many such conversations between men and women, gender identification isn't ever going to go away.

BTW, by and large, the only people I've ever actually apply the word bimbo to another women were women.

Are you really this retarded? Save your false sincerity, that story gets better and better as it goes, that's not even the half of it. Fortunately, I know plenty of reasonable women who don't hysterically inflate any perceived slight to their dignity as women during a discussion about generalities into perceived misogyny.

In fact, as far as I can tell, of all the women that frequent this forum, there is only you three.

But, you are quite welcome to catalog all the horrible accusations I've made in this thread "demeaning women", if you can't back that accusation up, you shouldn't have made it.

 

[tickledkitty]

In any case, that's the only way I can explain this antipathy to the word bimbo. It seems to be something deep and primal, much more extreme than if you'd been called motherfuckers or cocksuckers or anything else. It's nicely symmetric that a man's fear is that he'll lose the power of his body whereas the woman's fear is that she'll be reduced to nothing more than the power of her body, and maybe I'm making too much of it because of that symmetry, but what the hell.

No, no. I think you're exactly right, and I like the symmetry too.

Personally, the word "bimbo" doesn't push any buttons, but imply that I'm stupid or ineffectual or not worth your effort, and I'll scratch your eyes out. I think a lot of women must associate all that (and maybe more) with that one little word, hence their ire.

 

[Safe_Bet]

Perhaps I was talking about you women, not all women - you identify very strongly as woman, clearly, other people are people first, and gender second, one never really does know, but it's not ever been considered rude to do it, I've overheard many such conversations between men and women, gender identification isn't ever going to go away.

BTW, by and large, the only people I've ever actually apply the word bimbo to another women were women.

Are you really this retarded? Save your false sincerity, that story gets better and better as it goes, that's not even the half of it. Fortunately, I know plenty of reasonable women who don't hysterically inflate any perceived slight to their dignity as women during a discussion about generalities into perceived misogyny.

In fact, as far as I can tell, of all the women that frequent this forum, there is only you three.

But, you are quite welcome to catalog all the horrible accusations I've made in this thread "demeaning women", if you can't back that accusation up, you shouldn't have made it.

Try not to hate, xssve. You will be healthier for it.