Shame and Humiliation

[voluptuary_manque]

I'm struck by how easy it is to find pages and pages of dismissives-- for women as women.

True, and I wonder about that. Do you notice that none of the derogative terms for women involve race or national origin but nearly all of the men's do? It's like 'other' men aren't even human so you don't say anything to them or about them that indicates that they share any commonality besides 'otherness'. Women, on the other hand, are all women and that defines their 'otherness' without any consideration of origin.

Just a casual thought, don'tcherknow . . .

 

[dr_mabeuse]

What I am asking is;

Are there any epithets that describe men, as men-- in not only a negative light physically, but a gender-oriented dismissive, derogatory way.

"bastard" is about his mother, "Prick," etc are paralell to "cunt" etc-- What would be an epithet that does NOT refer to actions like "cocksucker", but does describe the state of masculinity as something infantile, malleable, and preferred because of these negatives?

"Not a real man" sends the message loud and clear, that to be a man is a fine thing indeed. As does "not a real woman" send the message that to be a real woman is good.

No. Men make up the words and men use them (or that's the way it used to be) so they focus on and reflect men's concerns: fear of the vagina and status relations with other men.

 

[Stella_Omega]

No, but then, I don't think there are any epithets or anything shameful about the idea of a woman who can't perform sexually like there is for a man either. There are no "efeminized" woman like there are emasculated men. You don't lose your essential value as a human being in your own eyes by your inability to live up to a sexual standard. So we each have our cross to bear. For a man it's the fear of castration or emasculation, for a woman it's the fear of being thought a bimbo or used as a sexual object.

Doesn't "withered old hag" imply that exact thing? How about all the conversations here where men so carefully explain to the gals that they can't help wanting young and sexy women, because an older woman just isn't sexual anymore-- and won't be able to have babies? I don't see one single elderly woman in a starring role on a prime-time tv show, nor do I see any unsexy women. Rosie O'Donnel is the only plain woman I can remember who did good simply by presenting herself-- and I've heard men dismiss her for her unattractiveness.

Doc, when you showed us the picture of your Superfemme, you said "God you women are so beautiful!" yeah, because every one of us are six foot, 120 pounds, just came from makeup and have about 3,000 worth of North beach leather on us.
Simply by omission, you are telling women what a woman should be.

But this is what most of us look like.

The only thing that could get me as upset as a man as you women seem to be about this bimbo thing would be to see you emasculating a man here on the boards, which is why I think these things must roughly equivalent in moral weight and that they speak to the heart of our sexual identities.

I resent it because it demeans me AS A PERSON. It reduces my personhood to girl-ness. it does NOT attack my sexual identity, it uses my gender to attack my self.

There are plenty of words that attack a woman's sexuality, and we've discussed several of them here.

I mean, I fully understand. I empathize. I can't really feel the horror women feel about it anymore than they can feel this castration fear, but I can appreciate what it means to be reduced to the worth of a set of genitals. I'm a little baffled at why exxsv's getting so much shit when I didn't see him saying anything patently offensive myself. I certainly don't see him being anti-female, so I'm kind of confused about that.

he certainly keeps on framing the argument that way. *shrug*

Liken it not to a fear of castration, but a fear of lobotomy. And I can empathise with your fears as well, I really can. In many ways, I feel castrated every day of my life-- socially, financially, physically. You fear it-- I'm living with it.

Please remember I am speaking only for myself and no other women when i say that.

I think it's interesting too that we of course play with these two taboos of emasculation and bimbofication in our sexual games, especially in BDSM, so they're things we're interested in. We just want to make sure we're in charge of them when they happen.

Hmm, not me, those two things never have come up for me!

No. Men make up the words and men use them (or that's the way it used to be) so they focus on and reflect men's concerns: fear of the vagina and status relations with other men.

and this is an ugly state of affairs for the half of the world that lives with those words whether they agree with them or not.

 

[xssve]

What I am asking is;

Are there any epithets that describe men, as men-- in not only a negative light physically, but a gender-oriented dismissive, derogatory way.

"bastard" is about his mother, "Prick," etc are paralell to "cunt" etc-- What would be an epithet that does NOT refer to actions like "cocksucker", but does describe the state of masculinity as something infantile, malleable, and preferred because of these negatives?

"Not a real man" sends the message loud and clear, that to be a man is a fine thing indeed. As does "not a real woman" send the message that to be a real woman is good.

Cocksucker is feminization, and any form of feminization is a derogation of gender, for men - amicus does this too me constantly, i.e., Cloudy and SB talk about the size on my cock and cast aspersions on my performance, while amicus simply calls me the worst thing he can imagine being, which is a woman.

I laugh him off too, chromosomaly, both sexes share at least one x chromosome, and we're all half women.

What he really means of course, is that I'm displaying qualities he associates with femininity and weakness, a very common conservative meme employed against liberals, "pantywaisted", etc.

To a woman, "cocksucker" at worst, would be about the equivalent of "asskisser", whereas for a man it's a distinctly gender oriented slur.

Back to work, ta ta.

 

[AllardChardon]

Stella,

Most women in American MAY look like the picture you posted, overweight and all, it is a huge problem here. But this view of yours is a overgeneralization of women, in case you don't know. The world over, most women do not look like that. And that includes me.

And in regards to Hugh Hefner's vision of the perfect female genitalia, well my pussy looks just like the one you described and I am proud of it. I could have been a contender, I could have been a centerfold for Hugh... Ha.

Allard

 

[Stella_Omega]

Stella,

Most women in American MAY look like the picture you posted, overweight and all, it is a huge problem here. But this view of yours is a overgeneralization of women, in case you don't know. The world over, most women do not look like that. And that includes me.

And in regards to Hugh Hefner's vision of the perfect female genitalia, well my pussy looks just like the one you described and I am proud of it. I could have been a contender, I could have been a centerfold for Hugh... Ha.

Allard

And I would worship your genitalia in the manner they deserve, if I had the chance, Allard. I'd make you happier than ol' Hef ever could have-- at least, that's what I'd aim for.

Everyone needs a goal.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Okay, Stella, I give up. You make me feel guilty, you make me feel ashamed, you make me feel uncomfortable with myself and uncomfortable with you. I really don't know how to talk to you or what to say anymore. I feel like all I can do is apologize, and yet I don't see why I should have to do that. I feel like your femaleness has become an impenetrable shield against which I can say nothing.

I don't know whether this is the effect you're trying for, but this is the effect you have.

What do you want from me?

 

[tickledkitty]

I'm struck by how easy it is to find pages and pages of dismissives-- for women as women.

I've got one, Stella. Wuss.

He's a wuss.

Even better. Pussy.

But then, that's kind of emasculating him in such a way that it makes him almost like a woman, which goes right back to denigrating women. If you want to insult a man, call him something that not only strips him of his masculinity but turns him into a woman.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I've got one, Stella. Wuss.

He's a wuss.

Even better. Pussy.

But then, that's kind of emasculating him in such a way that it makes him almost like a woman, which goes right back to denigrating women. If you want to insult a man, call him something that not only strips him of his masculinity but turns him into a woman.

So far "trogdolyte" is the only one anyone's come up with that denigrates a man as a man.

And I have to say there's that "oh, but we don't behave like that anymore" connotation. Whereas there are no words that include "Women have learned better than that" in their meanings.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Okay, Stella, I give up. You make me feel guilty, you make me feel ashamed, you make me feel uncomfortable with myself and uncomfortable with you. I really don't know how to talk to you or what to say anymore. I feel like all I can do is apologize, and yet I don't see why I should have to do that. I feel like your femaleness has become an impenetrable shield against which I can say nothing.

I don't know whether this is the effect you're trying for, but this is the effect you have.

What do you want from me?

What's with my femaleness? I'm fighting for my humanity.

Not my right to be a woman. I'm fighting for the chance to be viewed as something other than female first.

That's what every.

Single.

Post.

I've made here, has been about.

Oh yeah, and some of them were about my perception that "Shame" is far too specific a term to cover all the negative bases.

 

[xssve]

So far "trogdolyte" is the only one anyone's come up with that denigrates a man as a man.

And I have to say there's that "oh, but we don't behave like that anymore" connotation. Whereas there are no words that include "Women have learned better than that" in their meanings.

Don't be absurd, there are more words that denigrate men than there are women by orders of magnitude: you need only consult your Thesaurus - here's a few:

# 941. Knave. - N. knave, rogue; Scapin[obs3], rascal; Lazarillo de Tormes; bad man &c. Bad Man; blackguard &c. Bad Man; barrater[obs3], barrator[obs3]; shyster [U. S..].

traitor, betrayer, archtraitor[obs3], conspirator, Judas, Catiline; reptile, serpent, snake in the grass, wolf in sheep's clothing, sneak, Jerry Sneak, squealer*, tell-tale, mischief-maker; trimmer, fence-sitter, renegade &c. (tergiversation) Tergiversation; truant, recreant; sycophant &c. (servility) Servility.

Mephistophelian, satanic, diabolic, hellish, infernal, stygian, fiendlike[obs3], hell-born, demoniacal, devilish, fiendish.

# 949. Bad Man. - N. bad man, wrongdoer, worker of iniquity; evildoer &c. Evil doer [Maleficent being]; sinner; the wicked &c. Vice; bad example.

villain, rascal, scoundrel, miscreant, budmash[obs3], caitiff[Obs]!; wretch, reptile, viper, serpent, cockatrice, basilisk, urchin; tiger[Obs]!, monster; devil &c. (demon) Demon; devil incarnate; demon in human shape, Nana Sahib; hellhound, hellcat; rakehell[obs3].

bad woman, jade, Jezebel.

scamp, scapegrace, rip, runagate, ne'er-do-well, reprobate, scalawag, scallawag.

roué[French], rake; Sadist; skeesicks*[obs3], skeezix* [obs3][U. S.]; limb; one who has sold himself to the devil, fallen angel, ame damnee[Fr], vaurien[obs3], mauvais sujet[Fr], loose fish, sad dog; rounder*; lost sheep, black sheep; castaway, recreant, defaulter; prodigal &c. Prodigality.

rough, rowdy, hooligan, tough, ugly customer, mean mother [coll.], ruffian, bully, meanie [jocular]; Jonathan Wild; hangman.

incendiary, arsonist, fire bug [U. S.].

thief &c. Thief; murderer, terrorist &c. Killing [Destruction of live; violent death].

[person who violates the criminal law] culprit, delinquent, crook, hoodlum, hood, criminal, thug, malefactor, offender, perpetrator, perp [coll.]; disorderly person, misdemeanant[Law]; outlaw; scofflaw; vandal; felon[convicted criminal]; convict, prisoner, inmate, jail bird, ticket of leave man; multiple offender.

blackguard, polisson[obs3], loafer, sneak; rapscallion, rascallion[obs3]; cullion[obs3], mean wretch, varlet, kern[obs3], ame-de- boue[Fr], drole[obs3]; cur, dog, hound[Obs]!, whelp[Obs]!, mongrel[Obs]!; lown[Obs]!, loon, runnion[obs3], outcast, vagabond; rogue &c. (knave) Knave; ronian[obs3]; scum of the earth, riffraff; Arcades ambo[obs3].

Int. sirrah[obs3]! Phr. Acherontis pabulum[obs3]; gibier de potence[Fr].

Roget's Thesaurus: 3. MORAL CONDITIONS

There are some that are not sex specific, and I bolded one line that specifically refers to women, but the list of things men have called each other could probably go on for several pages.

 

[AllardChardon]

When I was growing up, males verbally bashing females was commonplace. Now females verbally bashing males is prevalent. Either way, it is not in the "greater good" and there has been way too much of it, in this otherwise interesting thread, for my taste.

And I agree with Doc, ladies, you are picking on XssVe. If a bunch of males tried to gang up on one female around here, the coroner might have to be called in. Which illustrates the point I was making above, just perfectly.

 

[xssve]

Not to mention there is a distinct possibility that due to all of this I now have a psychotic ex-marine stalking me in a futile attempt to enhance his breeding potential with you lot, poor fool. The power of the pussy - you didn't even have to ask.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Thanks, xvvse!

# 941. Knave. - N. knave, rogue; Scapin[obs3], rascal;Lazarillo de Tormes; bad man &c. Bad Man; blackguard &c. Bad Man; barrater[obs3], barrator[obs3]; shyster [U. S..].

traitor, betrayer, archtraitor[obs3], conspirator, Judas, Catiline; reptile, serpent, snake in the grass, wolf in sheep's clothing, sneak, Jerry Sneak, squealer*, tell-tale, mischief-maker; trimmer, fence-sitter, renegade &c. (tergiversation) Tergiversation; truant, recreant; sycophant &c. (servility) Servility.

Mephistophelian, satanic, diabolic, hellish, infernal, stygian, fiendlike[obs3], hell-born, demoniacal, devilish, fiendish.

# 949. Bad Man. - N. bad man, wrongdoer, worker of iniquity; evildoer &c. Evil doer [Maleficent being]; sinner; the wicked &c. Vice; bad example.

villain, rascal, scoundrel, miscreant, budmash[obs3], caitiff[Obs]!; wretch, reptile, viper, serpent, cockatrice, basilisk, urchin; tiger[Obs]!, monster; devil &c. (demon) Demon; devil incarnate; demon in human shape, Nana Sahib; hellhound, hellcat; rakehell[obs3].

bad woman, jade, Jezebel.

scamp, scapegrace, rip, runagate, ne'er-do-well, reprobate, scalawag, scallawag.

roué[French], rake; Sadist; skeesicks*[obs3], skeezix* [obs3][U. S.]; limb; one who has sold himself to the devil, fallen angel, ame damnee[Fr], vaurien[obs3], mauvais sujet[Fr], loose fish, sad dog; rounder*; lost sheep, black sheep; castaway, recreant, defaulter; prodigal &c. Prodigality.

rough, rowdy, hooligan, tough, ugly customer, mean mother [coll.], ruffian, bully, meanie [jocular]; Jonathan Wild; hangman.

incendiary, arsonist, fire bug [U. S.].

thief &c. Thief; murderer, terrorist &c. Killing [Destruction of live; violent death].

[person who violates the criminal law] culprit, delinquent, crook, hoodlum, hood,l crimina, thug, malefactor, offender, perpetrator, perp [coll.]; disorderly person, misdemeanant[Law]; outlaw; scofflaw; vandal; felon[convicted criminal]; convict, prisoner, inmate, jail bird, ticket of leave man; multiple offender.

blackguard, polisson[obs3], loafer, sneak; rapscallion, rascallion[obs3]; cullion[obs3], mean wretch, varlet, kern[obs3], ame-de- boue[Fr], drole[obs3]; cur, dog, hound[Obs]!, whelp[Obs]!, mongrel[Obs]!; lown[Obs]!, loon, runnion[obs3], outcast, vagabond; rogue &c. (knave) Knave; ronian[obs3]; scum of the earth, riffraff; Arcades ambo[obs3].

Int. sirrah[obs3]! Phr. Acherontis pabulum[obs3]; gibier de potence[Fr].

The bolded are specifically or conventionally male, that I know of. The rest can apply to women as well.

well it's great to think that I can be upbraided in a genderless way. I don't have to be a bimbo, I can be a miscreant instead.

 

[xssve]

Sir, thou art a varlet! :caning:

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Thanks, xvvse!The bolded are specifically or conventionally male, that I know of. The rest can apply to women as well.

well it's great to think that I can be upbraided in a genderless way. I don't have to be a bimbo, I can be a miscreant instead.

But I don't think that you can be a bounder. Or a cad, for that matter.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Dude, you're a bimbo!

Hmm... does that work?

Bounder and cad address morals, and maybe they both do in a you-men-are-like-that way.

Got anything that addresses infantile men in the same kind of it's-okay-because-we-wouldn't-expect-more kind of way?

"whelp"?

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Dude, you're a bimbo!

Hmm... does that work?

Bounder and cad address morals, and maybe they both do in a you-men-are-like-that way.

Got anything that addresses infantile men in the same kind of it's-okay-because-we-wouldn't-expect-more kind of way?

"whelp"?

Whelp is good. Shoat might work, but only if the insultee has a decent vocabulary. I think that 'twit' or 'twerp' come closest to what you want, though neither of them is very strong. Kind of pathetic, actually.

 

[xssve]

Pansy. And you can be a rapscallion if you want.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Whelp is good. Shoat might work, but only if the insultee has a decent vocabulary. I think that 'twit' or 'twerp' come closest to what you want, though neither of them is very strong. Kind of pathetic, actually.

"twerp" maybe-- it has a juvenile connotation though. Bimbos can be adults.

Pansy. And you can be a rapscallion if you want.

Pansy attacks his masculinity, though...
I could be satanic, if I were religious.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

"twerp" maybe-- it has a juvenile connotation though. Bimbos can be adults.

Pansy attacks his masculinity, though...
I could be satanic, if I were religious.

A bimbo and a twerp can be chronological adults but the perjoratives fix their infantilism. How about 'clown'?

 

[Stella_Omega]

A bimbo and a twerp can be chronological adults but the perjoratives fix their infantilism. How about 'clown'?

That's definitely about the intellect!

 

[voluptuary_manque]

That's definitely about the intellect!

Or lack thereof.

 

[cloudy]

That's definitely about the intellect!

I disagree. A clown can be someone that plays for laughs. It's not necessarily a comment on someone's intellect.

 

[xssve]

The appeal of the 'Okay babe' man

There’s been a lot of gloating about the Madonna-Ritchie divorce, the general tone of which has been that Madonna is a control freak and no man, least of all a red-blooded geezer like our Guy, could be expected to put up with it. Meanwhile, Madonna has reportedly said she never wants to date another Brit and has accused Ritchie of being emotionally retarded.

She’s got it so wrong. Whether Ritchie is emotionally stunted or not, Madonna chose him for a reason — she recognised that if a woman wants a real man, but also wants to be indulged and allowed to have her way, then a Brit male of the “Okay, Babe” generation is her best bet. You think it’s an accident she picked a thirtysomething English bloke? Think again. These boys have a distinct advantage over their American and European equivalents: they don’t feel threatened by bossy, powerful, independent women. Is it being brought up under Thatcher? Is it living in a culture where you learn that making a girl laugh is the fastest route to seducing her? Whatever. Without even knowing it, our boys are naturals at handling the alpha female.

Comments?