Shame and Humiliation

[Stella_Omega]

If you want to be seen as something other than a female first, stop insisting that you're a female first.

I love you Stella, but you've gone off the deep end.

Well, yeah, that seems confusing, and there is no one answer. I'm not a one-descriptor girl.

let me see if I can clear it up;

I am stuck in a female body (since there are only two choices, after all) and so I have no choice but to be seen as female.

Therefore, I have no choice but to respond to societies expectations and pressures and politics that deal with women. Doesn't matter if I agree or not, people look at my tits and my wider hips, and they begin from one or another sets of pre-formed assumptions.

The female stereotypes as exemplified by the ones we've been talking about here are, to me, stultifying, inaccurate, inadequate, and unwearable. I know that's true for a significant number of other people who also are born in female bodies.

Doc, back when this thread started, you wanted to talk about your need to dominate, and you linked it directly to your masculine identity and your partner's feminine identity. I offered you a slightly different paradigm, by way of my own need to dominate which is damn near identical to yours-- except that I don't have the 'shame' buzzword back there in my brain, and I am not male in body.

It seemed to me that the essence of my statements were invisible to you, and that, if you responded at all, you picked out some element that did not address my thoughts on gender, and my perception that it might not be so necessary.

And here's me on a bad day; I wake up grabbing for the dick that isn't there.
If you want to talk about castration worries, I can tell you all about what it's like to actually be castrated.

 

[xssve]

I am not responsible for the limitations of online dictionaries or the people who consider them definitive, I believe if I had an OED to consult I might be vindicated.

How's that?

 

[AllardChardon]

Actually, it was Webster's 7th Collegiate Dictionary and I understand word interpretation and its ramifications perfectly. Theologians make a living doing jus that. The way you see the word bawd is close to the truth. You are just forgetting the "she gets paid for her time in bed" part as compared to the rest of us women who just give it away, in exchange for cars, clothes, houses, children, etc. LOL. That last part was my humor.

 

[xssve]

In either sense, a bawd transcends reproductive politics and it implies something strictly sexual; the prostitute or madam professionally, whereas the wife's compensations typically have explicit implications w/respect to her childbearing role.

 

[xssve]

And I do appreciate your sense of humor, just be careful, I cut my teeth on sarcasm.

 

[AllardChardon]

I rarely use sarcasm around here. It would be like gutting a fish in shark infested waters...

 

[Stella_Omega]

I rarely use sarcasm around here. It would be like gutting a fish in shark infested waters...

As has been seen time, and time, and time again!

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Ah yes, the difference between the real definition of a word and "what that word means to me" crap. I usually reply with, "Re-Writing the dictionary, again, are we, Mr. Webster? (Sarcasm is an artform in my house, BTW)

The dictionary has been rewritten. Again and again and again. I like to look at roots of words, the words they came from, their etomology, history, and therein find their meaning. We add lots of connotations to words that don't necessarily have anything to do with their meaning. Rewriting the dictionary isn't always a bad thing. There are a lot of words that should be redeemed or reclaimed... words like porn (originally porne...) and cunt... and lots and lots of others!

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Well, yeah, that seems confusing, and there is no one answer. I'm not a one-descriptor girl.

let me see if I can clear it up;

I am stuck in a female body (since there are only two choices, after all) and so I have no choice but to be seen as female.

Therefore, I have no choice but to respond to societies expectations and pressures and politics that deal with women. Doesn't matter if I agree or not, people look at my tits and my wider hips, and they begin from one or another sets of pre-formed assumptions.

The female stereotypes as exemplified by the ones we've been talking about here are, to me, stultifying, inaccurate, inadequate, and unwearable. I know that's true for a significant number of other people who also are born in female bodies.

Doc, back when this thread started, you wanted to talk about your need to dominate, and you linked it directly to your masculine identity and your partner's feminine identity. I offered you a slightly different paradigm, by way of my own need to dominate which is damn near identical to yours-- except that I don't have the 'shame' buzzword back there in my brain, and I am not male in body.

It seemed to me that the essence of my statements were invisible to you, and that, if you responded at all, you picked out some element that did not address my thoughts on gender, and my perception that it might not be so necessary.

And here's me on a bad day; I wake up grabbing for the dick that isn't there.
If you want to talk about castration worries, I can tell you all about what it's like to actually be castrated.

Well this is where it gets terribly confusing, because on the one hand, you claim authority on speaking of the female experience, and then in the same breath you claim to be a male stuck in a female body and monopolize the authority on speaking of that version of things, till finally you've sucked all the air out of the room and no one can say anything that you're not the total authority on, so there is no conversation. There's just Stella. Omnigendered Stella.

I mean, be fair. Either you're a woman in a woman's body or you're a man in a woman's body, but you can't complain about both.

 

[AllardChardon]

Okay, Selena I looked up the etymology of bawd and there are two main ones.

OE: bold became bald, which became bawd. Or ME: baude, lewd person.

But, bawd is most closely related to pander: ME from Pandarus - meaning a go-between in love intrigues. Pandarus was the leader of the Lycians in the Trojan War and the procurer of Cressida for Troilus.

And yet bawd refers to a woman most of the time throughout the last several hundred years.

I can't wait to use pander in my next novel about the further sexual adventures of a true bawd, Mrs. Hobart, aka me in the 1850s.

 

[Shwenn]

There are a lot of words that should be redeemed or reclaimed... words like porn (originally porne...) and cunt... and lots and lots of others!

Thank You!

I want to reclaim precocious. It's starting to take on this weird meaning of 'sexually adventurous'. I no longer comment to people if their child is precocious because I'm afraid they will take it the wrong way.

I would also like the word literally to be used correctly again. Why must everybody rob it of its meaning?

 

[Safe_Bet]

Well this is where it gets terribly confusing, because on the one hand, you claim authority on speaking of the female experience, and then in the same breath you claim to be a male stuck in a female body and monopolize the authority on speaking of that version of things, till finally you've sucked all the air out of the room and no one can say anything that you're not the total authority on, so there is no conversation. There's just Stella. Omnigendered Stella.

I mean, be fair. Either you're a woman in a woman's body or you're a man in a woman's body, but you can't complain about both.

Why? Because she refuses to be fit into one of your simplified catagories?

What you aren't acknowledging is that humans are too complex to fit into ANY one word descriptors other than "human". That's as close as you can get.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Okay, Selena I looked up the etymology of bawd and there are two main ones.

OE: bold became bald, which became bawd. Or ME: baude, lewd person.

But, bawd is most closely related to pander: ME from Pandarus - meaning a go-between in love intrigues. Pandarus was the leader of the Lycians in the Trojan War and the procurer of Cressida for Troilus.

And yet bawd refers to a woman most of the time throughout the last several hundred years.

I can't wait to use pander in my next novel about the further sexual adventures of a true bawd, Mrs. Hobart, aka me in the 1850s.

There's a goddess in Greek mythology who embodies that sort of bawdy humor... I have a statue of her somewhere, pulling up her skirts... her name totally went out of my pregnancy-riddled brain... Baubo! That's it... I knew it was related... She pulls up her skirts to Demeter, exposes herself, and breaks the mood with that bawdy sort of humor... I love that energy/character!

 

[Stella_Omega]

Well this is where it gets terribly confusing, because on the one hand, you claim authority on speaking of the female experience, and then in the same breath you claim to be a male stuck in a female body and monopolize the authority on speaking of that version of things, till finally you've sucked all the air out of the room and no one can say anything that you're not the total authority on, so there is no conversation. There's just Stella. Omnigendered Stella.

I mean, be fair. Either you're a woman in a woman's body or you're a man in a woman's body, but you can't complain about both.

The hell I can't!

Because I have experienced the female experience, willy-nilly, for fifty years. Regardless of my interior identity. You, for instance, ignored pretty much everything I said, or translated it in your mind (I assume this by your responses referring to butterflies) to 'woman talking." And I can't tell, but I do wonder if you would have read my posts with better attention if I presented solely and exclusively as male.

*shrug* we do what we can with what we're given.

And I keep on saying and saying that I am not trying to speak for every woman out there. I use "some" and "many" and "A significant group" in damn near every sentence.

 

[Corylea]

But, I was addressing the frigid women who are healthiy but do not like sex. Choose not to have it even if they are married. How many husbands write to me of their loneliness in their marriage due to their wife's lack of desire. In my world, ED is not a problem for the men, it is a problem for the women. Is it all chemically induced through screwy hormones or is it simply "no more interest", as I suspect.

I'm troubled by your writing off lots of women as bad, uptight, husband-neglecting shrews on the basis of no evidence. Lots of people have low sexual desire, and for the people I have known, this is not a choice. Oh, and it happens to men, too; I've known men who were interested in having sex maybe twice a year. I think blaming "frigid" women is no more helpful than blaming men with ED.

 

[Shwenn]

And I keep on saying and saying that I am not trying to speak for every woman out there. I use "some" and "many" and "A significant group" in damn near every sentence.

You are speaking for me. And I think you are doing very well.

A lot of times men will tell me that I'm like a guy.

I always respond the same. I am not like a guy. I am like a woman. You are simply very wrong about what a woman is like.

 

[Stella_Omega]

You are speaking for me. And I think you are doing very well.

A lot of times men will tell me that I'm like a guy.

I always respond the same. I am not like a guy. I am like a woman. You are simply very wrong about what a woman is like.

Beautifully put, thank you! A concept like this would have saved me a lot of angst, I am sure-- gotta love the internet. Seriously.

And-- thanks.

 

[CharleyH]

MY GOD! Doc. you have garnered more posts than most. Be proud, shame and humiliation must be a big part of sex to many, otherwise they wouldn't talk about it so much.

 

[Shwenn]

Beautifully put, thank you! A concept like this would have saved me a lot of angst, I am sure-- gotta love the internet. Seriously.

And-- thanks.

No, thank you.

It is because of women like you that concepts about women changed.

I don't have the feelings of frustration that you have. I grew up always having access to men who saw me as an equal and treated me as such.

There are still plenty of people (male and female) who make ridiculous, uterus based assumptions about me but I've never had to fight for people who don't. It makes the former easy to dismiss.

It's because of women like you that I got a degree in math without ever feeling I had to prove it was possible for a woman to do it. Every class was dominated by men but not once did I feel doubted or suspected because I am a woman.

I can't even begin to express my gratitude to the women of your generation.

 

[Safe_Bet]

MY GOD! Doc. you have garnered more posts than most. Be proud, shame and humiliation must be a big part of sex to many, otherwise they wouldn't talk about it so much.

I don't think it has really touched on that subject for the last 10 pages.

 

[Safe_Bet]

No, thank you.

It is because of women like you that concepts about women changed.

I don't have the feelings of frustration that you have. I grew up always having access to men who saw me as an equal and treated me as such.

There are still plenty of people (male and female) who make ridiculous, uterus based assumptions about me but I've never had to fight for people who don't. It makes the former easy to dismiss.

It's because of women like you that I got a degree in math without ever feeling I had to prove it was possible for a woman to do it. Every class was dominated by men but not once did I feel doubted or suspected because I am a woman.

I can't even begin to express my gratitude to the women of your generation.

Strongly second her thanks.

 

[CharleyH]

I don't think it has really touched on that subject for the last 10 pages.

It should have - that was his question. Is this the general board?

 

[Stella_Omega]

It should have - that was his question. Is this the general board?

There are some strong, enlightening, and difficult discussions in this thread. They might even be worth *cough* reading, before you make a judgement.

 

[CharleyH]

There are some strong, enlightening, and difficult discussions in this thread. They might even be worth *cough* reading, before you make a judgement.

All I gathered from a response recently was that the thread went off topic 10 pages ago.

I cant participate every day and that's a problem, Stell. I wish I could. Kisses

 

[xssve]

Just warming up, circling the subject to sneak up behind - to be bawd or bold is equated with shamelessness, it's the opposite of modesty which is the polite form of shame.

I've had strong female role models all my life - my mother is the original superwoman, before such a thing existed in the media: wife and mother, cooking, cleaning, baking, as well as full time professional with a masters degree at a time when when her domestic role was taken for granted, it was still pretty much all that was expected at the time of most women her age.

The problem with wearing your gender on your sleeve, is that can blind you to nuances of interpretation that politics deliberately obscures. In order to have and raise children there are compromises that have to be made, gender roles that are simply easier to play out than fight, and eventually, even these lines blur.

Personality is not monolithic, it has layers and facets - A woman can be wife, mother, lover, professional, friend, all at once: each layer emerging as required, and the same thing can be said about men, one simply does what is called for when it is called for.

As far as I'm concerned feminist politics can be just as bad and chauvinistic as machismo politics, they both often miss the whole picture in pursuit of their political goals, but the point I'm really trying to make here is that reproductive politics is inescapable for the average person,and in many ways transcends gender politics - when women take the anti feminist-stance, they are often playing the reproductive card, certain divisions of labor do make the whole thing easier and less stressful, while gender politics of either variety can alternatively cause stress.

Men don't like to do housework, for example, it's traditionally "women's work", and in some studies, males who had to do housework had much higher stress levels, it represented a loss of status, and traditionally status for men translates almost directly into economic status, which is why it's stressful to begin with.

More recent studies indicate that more men do help with the housework now, and that men who help with the housework get laid more frequently - i.e., social values have shifted to some extent, and while this isn't equality, per se, it does reflect more balanced and symmetrical divisions of labor - in the old days, the wife could not say no, it was grounds for divorce, re: frigidity, etc., now, perhaps they are getting laid as a reward, or maybe their wives/girlfriends are simply not so worn out and/or depressed from neglect.

i.e., it often isn't the work itself that's wearing, it's that you're always doing it alone and unappreciated.

There are many shifts taking place here, many forces at work, both progressive and reactionary, and I find it more useful to think in terms of layers and facets, agents and roles than in monolithic oversimplifications, there are just too many variables to fit into one simple paradigm.