Polyamory

[nh23]

I think what distinguishes seri's relationship from the kinds of relationships nh is talking about is that seri was aware of what she was getting into. It wasn't like her Ma'am was telling her that it was going to be a monogamous relationship, and then once seri was firmly locked into slave mode, her Ma'am told her, "Well, never mind, I changed my mind and decided I want to have more subs, but you don't get to play with anyone else, sorry."

Informed consent makes all the difference, IMO. And "informed consent" doesn't count when you're already in an established relationship and throwing the "I'm the Master" thing around.

*nods* Yes this is what I was talking about. If a slave goes into a relationship knowing the Master is poly..and that she won't have that option, well then the cards are face up and it's her choice to go into it. If it's a bait and switch..well then things get a bit more hairy.

I just can't wrap around in my mind how one person can be poly and not understand those same feelings in their partner. Like if the Master is poly and knows that being kept in the small little box would be unhealthy for them..how do they not understand the same applies for their partner..assuming their partner is wired to be poly also.

Like I've said before though. I'm in a D/s relationship, not a M/s relationship. So maybe I'm missing something here..to me it just doesn't make sense.

ETA- Also as far as I know seri has not said she is wired to be poly herself..or has the desire for other partners..

 

[JMohegan]

Post 99:

My Ma'am has other partners and relationships. She has two other subs, a maid and various casual play partners. She's dated. I am single, but I am HERS....and I am not allowed to have relationships with other people without her prior approval. Sometimes this is hard because I long to have that romantic relationship with another woman, but I belong to Dawnie and I'm *HAPPY*. If the opportunity to be with another woman on the level I desire comes up, she will certainly hear me out, but she decides how I spend my time and where my attention is focused. That is the "M/s" part of our relationship working. M/s on the level we live it comes with some sacrifices, and giving up things you desire does not always lead to unhappiness, instability and resentment.

 

[nh23]

Post 99:

Oh, I didn't see that. I'm sorry. So she's not saying her Mistress will not allow her to have other partners..just that it hasn't come up.

 

[JMohegan]

*nods* Yes this is what I was talking about. If a slave goes into a relationship knowing the Master is poly..and that she won't have that option, well then the cards are face up and it's her choice to go into it. If it's a bait and switch..well then things get a bit more hairy.

I just can't wrap around in my mind how one person can be poly and not understand those same feelings in their partner. Like if the Master is poly and knows that being kept in the small little box would be unhealthy for them..how do they not understand the same applies for their partner..assuming their partner is wired to be poly also.

Like I've said before though. I'm in a D/s relationship, not a M/s relationship. So maybe I'm missing something here..to me it just doesn't make sense.

I am not interested in M/s either.

But the people I know who embrace that dynamic consider changing the mind to be part of the Master's prerogative.

However, I see your point (and BiBunny's) if there is a deliberate, premeditated attempt to deceive, i.e., I agree that a planned bait and switch is dishonorable.

 

[Caitlynne]

I am not interested in M/s either.

But the people I know who embrace that dynamic consider changing the mind to be part of the Master's prerogative.

However, I see your point (and BiBunny's) if there is a deliberate, premeditated attempt to deceive, i.e., I agree that a planned bait and switch is dishonorable.

Well even if it is just an honest change of heart, if a Dom wants it to actually work out [as poly] he'd better handle it carefully. I'll be honest, I've never seen a poly relationship work that began as a mono relationship and poly was never mentioned as a future possibility. It's really difficult for the sub to handle if it was never brought up at the beginning because that's where consent is the least emotionally charged. It's much more difficult to speak openly about after you're collared. I mean, how do you say no then? So Yes, a Dominant can honestly change his mind, but... he'd better make the transition carefully if it's to be successful.

All of the successful poly relationships I've seen and/or been involved in were at least 'up front' about the future possibility even if they began as monogamous. It was spoken of; it was hashed around; and it was put on the table as an option. AND even then, it was difficult to integrate another person into the mix, just because well, it changes ALL the dynamics of all the relationships. It's an expanding family of sorts and change is always difficult. To impose the additional hardship of never broaching it as an option at the beginning--*sigh* well all the participants had better be really really honest and talk it all out.

The most successful model I've ever encountered was a married couple [M/s] who negotiated the possibility of poly before they ever became romantically involved. He was not monogamous and told her from the beginning. But there came a time when he wanted to marry her, to have children, and to make a life with her. But, the poly thing was still on the table. There were rules regrading other partners and such, and additional partners were added over a long periods of time and nothing was ever sprung on the slave. And I'm talking about over a year or so in time. Slow and steady, and talking about it at each step along the way.

This model was a two way street BTW, she could take other partners as well and they did not have to be intimate with the Dominant [she was bi]. There were strict rules, etc, and he had to interview them etc, but it was not a situation where he had the availability of multiple partners and she did not. What he controlled was the process and he had a veto. Actually so did she but she had to explain herself really really well. As far as I know she only exercised that veto once tho and he did not allow the additional sub into his life in the end.

Also the most successful poly relationships make distinctions between play partners or casual partners and actual lovers [poly], and I agree there is a difference. If one is playing there is ostensibly no [or little] emotional attachment to the play partner. Mono people often can adjust to an "open" relationship if there is emotional fidelity. Poly is really about taking on additional lovers and there is an emotional attachment. That's exactly why the existing sub has to be given the time and understanding--she'll fear the loss of affection--it's human nature, or at least it's the nature of a monogamous person.

Course all of this is sort of moot if the slave is poly already and has that mind set. My advice to every Dominant is to find out what kind of 'thinking' your sub has on the topic even if you never have any plans to open up the relationship to other partners. It's just a really important facet of a person's sexual and emotional being. Interesting as hell as a matter of fact once you get into a discussion about what it means to be mono or poly. A very interesting topic. One not enough people [IMO] take the time to actually discuss, because it's felt to be "understood" as part of the culture and there are millions of social cues telling us all 'how to be monogamous'.

 

[nh23]

*nods* to Caitlynne I agree wholeheartedly.

 

[Caitlynne]

One way of saying that is that the first "relationship" has to be with the dyad, that is, the relationship between the two primary partners. Secondary to that is one's loyalty to the individuals. I demand playmates that are able to say, your men are obviously good for you, and you for them, and I would never do anything that conflicts with that.

This is beautifully stated, and quintessentially poly. Very nicely put.

 

[nh23]

"You know, you could tell me never to call or write again, and I simply never would. I'd be sad, but being angry at you or asking why probably would not happen. I wouldn't do it. If you showed up later and snapped your fingers I'd come back again, and I'd try my best to do it like nothing ever happened. My damndest."

You know..I've done this. When D and I split there awhile ago for a few months, he told me things had to be over, and I told him I respected his decision. I didn't write, or email, or call..no matter how much I wanted to. I cried a lot. My heart ached, I felt like I couldn't breathe it was one of the most horrible experiences ever. But, I still didn't try to contact him. When he came back..well we pretty much just picked up where we left off. I still have a few things to work out with my emotions, but that's for me to deal with. As far as he is concerned everything is pretty much going on like nothing ever happened. I've been told by some people that I'm stupid..I don't see it as stupid I see it as devotion. I love him, he's my Dom, what else would I do..

 

[Etoile]

I'm pondering the difference between "swinging" and "poly"...anybody want to jump on this one with me?

 

[bobshortforkate]

Poly - loving more than one, going on dates without your spouse, fostering a loving romantic, extramarital relationship(s) which don't involve your spouse.

Swinging - fucking more than one, love optional, couple centred, fucking other couples together and no extramarital sex without the other present, usually.

That's my definitions. But I could be way off base. Enlightenment is welcome.

 

[nh23]

I'm pondering the difference between "swinging" and "poly"...anybody want to jump on this one with me?

Poly- Loving more than one person romantically. Having more than one deep relationship.

Swinging- Normally done as a couple, but not always. Sex without emotional attachment. Deep relationships are discouraged and are often a deal breaker.

My definitions.

 

[Caitlynne]

I'm pondering the difference between "swinging" and "poly"...anybody want to jump on this one with me?

Well, my definitions are:

Swinging: Is all about having sex with multiple partners, but the emotional, or romantic part of the relationship is still monogamous. They Love only each other. They separate sex from their emotions, at least in the swinging part of their sexual lives.

That's not to say they aren't attracted and don't *like* their swinging partners, just that there is no attachment or love relationship formed. They all just have sex. Sort of like having play partners in our world. People you just play with, but don't become emotionally attached to.

Poly: It's actually forming more than one relationship. The love, they relate, they are actually in and part of each others lives. There are just more of them. The key here is that in a poly relationship there is a higher degree of responsibility and involvement.

That's as simply as I can put it given my understanding of both.

 

[HottieMama]

Can i ask a question? And i truly hope this "comes out" clearly...

How do you deal with the feelings that come from being "second" in a poly relationship? You are "second" to your partner...but they are "first/only" for you? (not because you are not allowed to seek another, simply because of circumstance at the moment.) How do you manage that? How do you manage the times when your status is painfully obvious for whatever reason?

 

[BiBunny]

Can i ask a question? And i truly hope this "comes out" clearly...

How do you deal with the feelings that come from being "second" in a poly relationship? You are "second" to your partner...but they are "first/only" for you? (not because you are not allowed to seek another, simply because of circumstance at the moment.) How do you manage that? How do you manage the times when your status is painfully obvious for whatever reason?

Unfortunately, I can answer this one quite well, from past experience. You ask yourself which is worse: being in second place, or being without your partner, period. If you'd rather be in second place than lose the relationship, you just find something to distract yourself, whatever that may be. You take each moment as it comes and try not to think about how much it hurts.

If you're in the kind of relationship where you can discuss those feelings with your partner, you do, but I wasn't that lucky. So I spent a lot of time with friends or family or whatever, just anything to keep from being alone with my thoughts. When I did happen to be alone with my thoughts, I'd read because I love reading, and it holds my full attention. I'd only allow myself certain times to dwell on it, usually late at night when I was in bed, so that I wouldn't have to deal with that whole "I'm-afraid-I'm-going-to-start-crying-and-not-be-able-to-stop" thing. I'd usually end up crying myself to sleep, so that was how I was able to stop. I lied to myself a lot, too, but that was more a matter of my specific relationship than something that's going to plague most people in that situation.

I just looked back over that and saw how depressing it sounds. I hope someone else can offer something better. I don't know why I'm so...whatever today.

 

[HottieMama]

Bunny...

Thank you...very much.

 

[Caitlynne]

Can i ask a question? And i truly hope this "comes out" clearly...

How do you deal with the feelings that come from being "second" in a poly relationship? You are "second" to your partner...but they are "first/only" for you? (not because you are not allowed to seek another, simply because of circumstance at the moment.) How do you manage that? How do you manage the times when your status is painfully obvious for whatever reason?

Well, I've been in two different poly relationships [one is still current] and both times I was the second sub to come into the mix. There's nothing you can do about the second part if the reality is you actually *are* second. But, I wasn't designated as second in some kind of hierarchy in either situation. I think that made all the difference to me.

I've heard of strict alpha and beta positions, but I've never been in that kind of situation so I can't speak to it. I'd probably not do it, because the power structure would not fulfill my needs. If there is an alpha sub, then she has power over the beta. I don't think I'd be attracted to that kind of service at least not with the kind of passion and devotion I like to reach in myself.

The beta is actually being topped by both. It might be limited topping by the alpha sub, but it stills screws with the power dynamic too much for my taste. However, never say never as they say, if I fell in love with a couple who topped, well who knows. However, I can see it working perfectly for another kind of sub, especially if she were more bi sexual than I am.

In any event, dealing with feeling second sometimes was exactly as described. I've always had absolute clarity on why I was in poly relationships. I loved. I loved the other woman as well. I would have been less without their love and heart broken to leave [and I was]. It's a matter of understanding yourself and your priorities. Nothing in life is perfect, but if you understand what is really important to you, it is much easier. I was more in love and happier in the poly situation than I had ever been, more fulfilled as a person, more at peace, etc, and I knew it. Again nothing is perfect, and I found that moments of insecurity and depression over things that I might have felt even in a monogamous relationship were worth it compared to walking away from the happiness I found over all. I recognized my own happiness and fulfillment and decided not to be greedy. LOL

That, and the men I loved in both situations were actually poly. They weren't just getting their freak on [well they did that too], they truly loved both of us and made it clear all the time. It was a lot of work, but the Doms were invested in the time and effort. They chose to take on the responsibility, and they were aware of what it would take in much the same way a Dom knows what kind of safety measures to take in a scene. You want the pay off; you do the work. In both instances [of mine], the Doms did the work. They knew what they wanted and they created it.

There was tons of reassurance, and time and explanations and all of the things it takes to make it all work. My acceptance didn't happen as part of some inner refection of mine in a dark room as I cried about feeling 'second best'. If I was seen or found crying, it was brought out into the open and dealt with. I wasn't made to feel like a failure. In fact I was told I couldn't fail as long as I was honest about how I felt. If I honestly felt 'second best', then I had met my submissive imperative [obey and react]. Sometimes I was pointing out some imbalance and things were corrected and I no longer felt 'second best'. Sometimes it was my own insecurity, and I was given some kind of assignment to get myself back in balance with my own inner self and the relationship in general. It all depended, but I was never rejected or made to feel like I'd failed at some sort of perfect second or something. I was heard and appropriate actions were taken, either in the relationship as a whole or with me personally.

My advice is this, if you feel it strongly and when you reflect on it, it doesn't resolve, then you have to take it to the head of the household. You have to. It will begin to affect the rest of the members anyway. EVERYONE has moments of doubt and insecurity. EVERYONE. Anyone who says they don't is a liar. LOL So it is not some failure on your part to be perfect if you are jealous one day, or feel second best another. These are the normal emotions that come up in a poly relationship. All you do is deal with it.

 

[ammre]

I can't add anything becasue I'm not in nor have i ever been in a poly relationship.
I know that if i were in a relationship it would either have to be poly or have the possibility for opening up to poly. I personally feel discontent with the thought of only loving one person.

Just stopping in to say Hi and thanks for the thread/thoughts.

 

[serijules]

Oh, I didn't see that. I'm sorry. So she's not saying her Mistress will not allow her to have other partners..just that it hasn't come up.

Right now it's established as a rule that my focus and body belongs to her. Thus, I don't have the freedom to go out and start flirting with another woman and developing a relationship with the intentions of "hey, I wanna date you". Not to say I can't form friendships or whatnot, just that forming a romantic relationship involves forming a sexual one, which I am not allowed with other people. So you can see the issues here. I don't know many women that would date me knowing I couldn't be sexual with them and knowing my mind would be on another person much of the time!

However, if it got to a point where I was just miserable without having a romantic partner, would she hear me out? Of course....she will hear me out on anything I wish to talk to her about. That's the communication part of our relationship in work. I have no idea what her answer would be....I doubt she would know if I asked her right now either, as it isn't an issue at this moment. If it got to the point where I was truly miserable and she had no qualms about the person I wanted to see...well, she's sadistic, but she isn't a bitch.

However, as I've said...our relationship is M/s. We are not a romantic couple. Who she dates, fucks, or hell, marries....is none of my business, and that is the grounds we work on. If I WERE her romantic partner, it may be different...but I'm not and never will be as we don't believe M/s and romance mesh.

Doesn't mean I don't have those feelings towards her or long for otherwise, but I've accepted and believe that our M/s stands strongest on its own. We love each other tremendously and she uses me sexually in ways that leave me wet for days...but we are not "in love". It just doesn't work for us. She has freedoms I don't because she's Da Queen Poomba Boss Lady and that's that.

Being her slave, that works for me!

 

[nh23]

Can i ask a question? And i truly hope this "comes out" clearly...

How do you deal with the feelings that come from being "second" in a poly relationship? You are "second" to your partner...but they are "first/only" for you? (not because you are not allowed to seek another, simply because of circumstance at the moment.) How do you manage that? How do you manage the times when your status is painfully obvious for whatever reason?

I wish I could give some advice on this, but I don't know. *hugs*

 

[nh23]

Right now it's established as a rule that my focus and body belongs to her. Thus, I don't have the freedom to go out and start flirting with another woman and developing a relationship with the intentions of "hey, I wanna date you". Not to say I can't form friendships or whatnot, just that forming a romantic relationship involves forming a sexual one, which I am not allowed with other people. So you can see the issues here. I don't know many women that would date me knowing I couldn't be sexual with them and knowing my mind would be on another person much of the time!

However, if it got to a point where I was just miserable without having a romantic partner, would she hear me out? Of course....she will hear me out on anything I wish to talk to her about. That's the communication part of our relationship in work. I have no idea what her answer would be....I doubt she would know if I asked her right now either, as it isn't an issue at this moment. If it got to the point where I was truly miserable and she had no qualms about the person I wanted to see...well, she's sadistic, but she isn't a bitch.

However, as I've said...our relationship is M/s. We are not a romantic couple. Who she dates, fucks, or hell, marries....is none of my business, and that is the grounds we work on. If I WERE her romantic partner, it may be different...but I'm not and never will be as we don't believe M/s and romance mesh.

Doesn't mean I don't have those feelings towards her or long for otherwise, but I've accepted and believe that our M/s stands strongest on its own. We love each other tremendously and she uses me sexually in ways that leave me wet for days...but we are not "in love". It just doesn't work for us. She has freedoms I don't because she's Da Queen Poomba Boss Lady and that's that.

Being her slave, that works for me!

Thank You seri

 

[nh23]

I can't add anything becasue I'm not in nor have i ever been in a poly relationship.
I know that if i were in a relationship it would either have to be poly or have the possibility for opening up to poly. I personally feel discontent with the thought of only loving one person.

Just stopping in to say Hi and thanks for the thread/thoughts.

Thanks for stopping to say Hi, ammre! mini hijack..I swoon every time I see your AV.

 

[EmpressFi]

Can i ask a question? And i truly hope this "comes out" clearly...

How do you deal with the feelings that come from being "second" in a poly relationship? You are "second" to your partner...but they are "first/only" for you? (not because you are not allowed to seek another, simply because of circumstance at the moment.) How do you manage that? How do you manage the times when your status is painfully obvious for whatever reason?

I dont know, to be honest. I'm married to Malin and Master's only, so I'm not anyone's "second" although, admittedly, there have been times that I felt like my feelings were an afterthought and that was hard, but I dealt with it by talking and explaining what actions had taken place that caused me to feel like I was brushed aside... and explained how I interpretted those actions and we talked it out.

I did pose this to my Master because early in our relationship he'd remind me that he "knew his place in the heirarchy"... or "knew he came second"...

His answer is that we talk enough that it's no longer an issue and that I dont make him feel like he's second anymore. I'm not saying that it's not something that sometimes doesnt creep into his mind... I'm saying this is his answer today.. that with communication... he doesnt feel that way anymore...

 

[unpredictablebijou]

Well even if it is just an honest change of heart, if a Dom wants it to actually work out [as poly] he'd better handle it carefully. I'll be honest, I've never seen a poly relationship work that began as a mono relationship and poly was never mentioned as a future possibility. It's really difficult for the sub to handle if it was never brought up at the beginning because that's where consent is the least emotionally charged. It's much more difficult to speak openly about after you're collared. I mean, how do you say no then? So Yes, a Dominant can honestly change his mind, but... he'd better make the transition carefully if it's to be successful.

All of the successful poly relationships I've seen and/or been involved in were at least 'up front' about the future possibility even if they began as monogamous. ***snip***
Course all of this is sort of moot if the slave is poly already and has that mind set. My advice to every Dominant is to find out what kind of 'thinking' your sub has on the topic even if you never have any plans to open up the relationship to other partners. It's just a really important facet of a person's sexual and emotional being. Interesting as hell as a matter of fact once you get into a discussion about what it means to be mono or poly. A very interesting topic. One not enough people [IMO] take the time to actually discuss, because it's felt to be "understood" as part of the culture and there are millions of social cues telling us all 'how to be monogamous'.

Caitlynne, you've said some very wise and articulate things here. I chose this post to quote but you've made several others that are equally well-said.

I can't speak to the d/s m/s dynamic as such, but I do agree that in general it's pretty hard on any relationship when the dynamic was originally monogamous and suddenly there is discussion of polyamory. However, I have seen several cases in which this transition did work, and I've seen some rather typical stories. It's not impossible so long as the partners have some basic tools.

What will often happen is that one partner brings up the subject because of a new hint of a relationship (like meeting someone on line, in at least one case) or because of some frustration with a long-term relationship and the sexual dynamics in it. Sometimes it's a healthy reason and sometimes not.

But what I've seen myself in nearly every case is that the partner who introduces the idea and "forces" the discussion, to whatever degree, is for some ironic reason rarely the one who gets to hook up first. It's like god's little joke - a husband meets some hot chick and begins to insist that his wife consider polyamory because he's 'really always sorta wanted that' or a wife starts thinking about some greener patch of grass nearby, or there may even be some kink or preference discovered that brings it up. the one who brings it up usually has some agenda. And so, in many cases, discussions are had, boundaries are set (I coach people through those very discussions) and off we go into our New Poly Lifestyle.

The first real hump is going to be a situation where both partners have permission but only one has an actual opportunity. And I can nearly guarantee it'll be the partner who wasn't initially interested in poly.

These things are pretty big obstacles, as you've said, but they're not insurmountable. I've seen some amazingly long relationships make the transition successfully. It just takes lots and lots of work.

bijou

 

[EmpressFi]

The first real hump is going to be a situation where both partners have permission but only one has an actual opportunity. And I can nearly guarantee it'll be the partner who wasn't initially interested in poly.

bijou

I will claim to be the exception to this. When Malin and I went poly, it was our friend who brought it up..because she and her husband are also poly. That was 4-5 years ago if not more. But the first time either of us were with someone outside of our marriage, it was me, not Malin. But I agree about the communication thing

 

[nh23]

I can't speak to the d/s m/s dynamic as such, but I do agree that in general it's pretty hard on any relationship when the dynamic was originally monogamous and suddenly there is discussion of polyamory. However, I have seen several cases in which this transition did work, and I've seen some rather typical stories. It's not impossible so long as the partners have some basic tools. bijou

My husband and I started out as monogamous. We were for almost 9 years. We have been together 11 and have been poly for the last 2 years or so. The transition wasn't at all that difficult for us, not saying without difficulty at times, but it's worked out beautifully for us. But, I attribute a lot of that to the fact that both of us are wired to be poly. And it was something both of us wanted.

In the earlier posts we were discussing when one partner is poly, and the other isn't, or when one partner wants to be poly, but not allow the other partner to have the same freedom. So a monogamous relationship where one partner says Hey I'm poly all of a sudden, and the other partner is not and doesn't have the desire to be. That's when things really get tricky.