Polyamory

[sexycaz22]

For me, the difference between M/s and D/s is simple. Limits.

Ma'am has two D/s relationships and one M/s, that being with me. The difference between me and the others is I have no limits, no room for negotiation. There is certainly just as much respect for me and she doesn't make decisions regarding me lightly by any means, but the simple fact of the matter is that she DOES make them, and I accept that without question.

The working dynamics between M/s and D/s may be so similar for some they are nearly the same thing. There is no real definition of either, it's such a personal journey. However, the main distinguishing line for *me* lies within the limits, or lack thereof.

This is what I thought, when I read about a M/s relationship, and if I was honest, I always felt a bit uncomfortable, to find that the pyl in the relationship will not have any hard limits and I always find myself thinking, is she truly happy? But, serijules, I don't mean to say that you are not truly happy, far from that, actually. I always read your posts with admiration, and Catalina's too, and I could see that you both are very happy with your relationships and for me personally I just know that I could not be in a M/s relationship.

I don't mind the hijack at all! I agree with seri. I see M/s as the slave having no limits. I'm in a D/s relationship. I have a few hard limits..age play, animals, scat..he knows that asking me or trying to make me do any of these is a deal breaker. Slaves give up their rights to have limits.

Thank you, NH for allowing me to hijack your thread, I do find this thread a very enjoyable read!

I'm not sure that's the defining thing for me, it's just that slaves really need to be on the same page as their owners because they generally let their owners set limits. Slaves still have limits -silly example - I *know* how much H can take with clothespins and I instinctively use that information - I could use many more than he can take without him necessarily feeling like I'd abused him, but I still have consequences, cost-benefits to think about, and basic physical limitations that I have to pay attention to. Do I feel like breaking him down to the sobbing point today or not?

To me it's more about being property, having expectations, giving up the right to control your owner in any regard in relation to you. H can rest assured about nothing - he's really leaving himself in my hands. He knows I know his wishes and he trusts I know his needs and he's researched me and spoken to me for many many hours to know that we share a lot of values.

It's a very interesting definition, and very different from what serijules said. Again, like I said, everyone will have different views on a M/s relationship. My views are similar to yours, Netzach.

Thank you, girls, for taking the time to answer my quick question!

 

[Homburg]

I'm not sure that's the defining thing for me, it's just that slaves really need to be on the same page as their owners because they generally let their owners set limits.

We did scads of discussion prior to going into M/s. Part of it was on limits. "v" has limits, sure, but the way I like to think about them, and she agrees, is that all of them are essentially very soft limits. The only things that she considers hard limits are hard because I allow them to be. In other words, they're hard limits for me too. Realistically, I expect that if I pushed those hard limits, or tried to renegotiate them, we would have problems, but we're talking core things like not involving children.

Much like Netzach, I understand her physical and emotional capabilities. I dislike calling those limits simply because "limit" is a loaded word in this milieu, but it is an accurate word. Still, it reflects her capability to tolerate a certain level of stimuli. I know how far to push before she cries, and how far beyond that before she melts down. I then decide how far I want to go. Tears are common, but sobbing is not. I frequently like to see her cry, as it indicates commitment, but I hate to see her sob. Hopefully that makes sense.

So M/s is partially about a psuedo-lack of limits, and partially about a total lack of choice. It is more a mindset than anything else. At which point, defining it is brutally difficult. Examples are easier:

I want to play. I want to play with needles.

D/s: I mention the idea, or hint at it, and gauge her reaction. If she's nervous but not complaining too much, I push ahead. If she's scared to death, there's no reason to push because she'll safeword.

M/s: I grab the needles and tell her to strip.

We are almost to the point where we are running late for a dinner engagement. I decide that spanking that ass is more important than being on time.

D/s: She will respectfully complain and we will probably discuss the idea. She may or may not get spanked.

M/s: Baby gets her ass warmed. Any complaints become part of the pretty noises she makes.

The second example also occurs in stronger D/s dynamics. I'm including it to illustrate that the line is finely drawn. Hell, both examples can still be D/s, but, again, you get the point that the line is thin.

 

[Netzach]

We did scads of discussion prior to going into M/s. Part of it was on limits. "v" has limits, sure, but the way I like to think about them, and she agrees, is that all of them are essentially very soft limits. The only things that she considers hard limits are hard because I allow them to be. In other words, they're hard limits for me too. Realistically, I expect that if I pushed those hard limits, or tried to renegotiate them, we would have problems, but we're talking core things like not involving children.

Much like Netzach, I understand her physical and emotional capabilities. I dislike calling those limits simply because "limit" is a loaded word in this milieu, but it is an accurate word. Still, it reflects her capability to tolerate a certain level of stimuli. I know how far to push before she cries, and how far beyond that before she melts down. I then decide how far I want to go. Tears are common, but sobbing is not. I frequently like to see her cry, as it indicates commitment, but I hate to see her sob. Hopefully that makes sense.

So M/s is partially about a psuedo-lack of limits, and partially about a total lack of choice. It is more a mindset than anything else. At which point, defining it is brutally difficult. Examples are easier:

I want to play. I want to play with needles.

D/s: I mention the idea, or hint at it, and gauge her reaction. If she's nervous but not complaining too much, I push ahead. If she's scared to death, there's no reason to push because she'll safeword.

M/s: I grab the needles and tell her to strip.

We are almost to the point where we are running late for a dinner engagement. I decide that spanking that ass is more important than being on time.

D/s: She will respectfully complain and we will probably discuss the idea. She may or may not get spanked.

M/s: Baby gets her ass warmed. Any complaints become part of the pretty noises she makes.

The second example also occurs in stronger D/s dynamics. I'm including it to illustrate that the line is finely drawn. Hell, both examples can still be D/s, but, again, you get the point that the line is thin.

Those are a nice example of the nuances of difference. I think they really tap into it.

My M/s relationship also bucks a lot of what is normal about romantic partnerships - H is not a spouse or a partner. I've sat down with him for coffee, and had the one of the most delightful conversations ever on my birthday.

"You know, you could tell me never to call or write again, and I simply never would. I'd be sad, but being angry at you or asking why probably would not happen. I wouldn't do it. If you showed up later and snapped your fingers I'd come back again, and I'd try my best to do it like nothing ever happened. My damndest."

This isn't a tearful or intense moment. It's delightful. It's delicious. It's a thing I could roll around in like a pig in shit, it curls my toes. Ownership. Take an above-average human male, respectable, middle class, and make him an *object* for my consumption. Better if he's into it like I am.

I told him I might do that, that I make no promises I would not ever do that. I might assign him to someone else.

He gets hard.

I don't think I'd do any of these things, but I don't think I'd never do them. There are so many things I decide to do because I can and the message of "because I can" is the one he wants and needs. Most couples I know would find this the ultimate panic attack freak out territory - but this kind of ideation works well for us. The reality, well - I'm not selling at the moment, this I know.

 

[Homburg]

Those are a nice example of the nuances of difference. I think they really tap into it.

My M/s relationship also bucks a lot of what is normal about romantic partnerships - H is not a spouse or a partner. I've sat down with him for coffee, and had the one of the most delightful conversations ever on my birthday.

"You know, you could tell me never to call or write again, and I simply never would. I'd be sad, but being angry at you or asking why probably would not happen. I wouldn't do it. If you showed up later and snapped your fingers I'd come back again, and I'd try my best to do it like nothing ever happened. My damndest."

This isn't a tearful or intense moment. It's delightful. It's delicious. It's a thing I could roll around in like a pig in shit, it curls my toes. Ownership. Take an above-average human male, respectable, middle class, and make him an *object* for my consumption. Better if he's into it like I am.

I told him I might do that, that I make no promises I would not ever do that. I might assign him to someone else.

He gets hard.

I don't think I'd do any of these things, but I don't think I'd never do them. There are so many things I decide to do because I can and the message of "because I can" is the one he wants and needs. Most couples I know would find this the ultimate panic attack freak out territory - but this kind of ideation works well for us. The reality, well - I'm not selling at the moment, this I know.

That's some potent mojo. I can understand why it would curl your toes. It would curl mine. Romantic or not, that is Devotion. Devotion so deep that it would accept even the removal of the focus of devotion. That is hot. Seriously.

And that becomes one of those fantasy things. Yes, you can drop him, just because you can. But why? Damn, that attitude is hot. I've seen that in a msub here locally. He really would die for his Mistress. And it's not in some romantic or puffed up movie-star "I'm sooooo devoted" way. It's on this instinctual level that transcends any sort of rational thought. She has told stories of moments where he reacted entirely without conscious thought to preserve her in the face of perceived threat.

I'm not expressing this well because it's an intuitive impression. It's pure devotion. It permeates his every cell and sits in his scent. And he manages to not be sickening about it. It's the most natural thing in the world.

I love that. That is how it's done.

 

[serijules]

I'm not sure that's the defining thing for me, it's just that slaves really need to be on the same page as their owners because they generally let their owners set limits. Slaves still have limits -silly example - I *know* how much H can take with clothespins and I instinctively use that information - I could use many more than he can take without him necessarily feeling like I'd abused him, but I still have consequences, cost-benefits to think about, and basic physical limitations that I have to pay attention to. Do I feel like breaking him down to the sobbing point today or not?

To me it's more about being property, having expectations, giving up the right to control your owner in any regard in relation to you. H can rest assured about nothing - he's really leaving himself in my hands. He knows I know his wishes and he trusts I know his needs and he's researched me and spoken to me for many many hours to know that we share a lot of values.

Much better put than my wording Netz! You are right, everyone has "limits", as a slave I just don't enforce or control those limits. Ma'am knows how much I can take of certain things. Sometimes she desires to push me beyound that, and as you said, it can come with consequences, yet she has that right to set the boundaries where she wishes and deal with it accordingly.

There are some things she knows I have no desire to experience (scat, ageplay) but if she decided to take me there, that is where I would be. I still have desires and dislikes and whatnot...I just don't have the right to set them or control them, as you said.

 

[serijules]

This is what I thought, when I read about a M/s relationship, and if I was honest, I always felt a bit uncomfortable, to find that the pyl in the relationship will not have any hard limits and I always find myself thinking, is she truly happy? But, serijules, I don't mean to say that you are not truly happy, far from that, actually. I always read your posts with admiration, and Catalina's too, and I could see that you both are very happy with your relationships and for me personally I just know that I could not be in a M/s relationship.

I thought that once too It wasn't something that was demanded from the start...we just grew and grew to a point where even my hardest limits just fell away at the reward of pleasing her. Now, the happiness I feel comes from being able to please her that greatly, it's immensely rewarding and thrilling.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I guess I have a hard time understanding this because my mom and I are so open with each other. I just always imagine if and when I ever have kids, we'd be the same way.

Perhaps I can add a little to this. I bought both my children up in a household where transparency was very much the way everything went, and everything was open to discussion. They knew about sex, and were aware of my friends who were gay, kinky, or whatever, and that I was also involved personally and professionally in alternative and minority groups. They were also aware I was bi, and when and why I was looking for a partner into BDSM/D/s. They were raised seeing and loving movies such as Rocky Horror, Priscilla, Birdcage, Preaching To The Perverted and a horde of others. So in other words everything was open, they were exposed to more than most of their peers, but in a safe way.

Outcome is I have a daughter who is kinky in her own way, far more advanced and experienced than I was at her age in the world of BDSM, crossdressing, poly (I am often amazed at how she does handle her poly lifestyle with such ease and class), bisexuality etc., and is also not afraid to share and ask my advice on sexual matters, but still at times does not feel she needs to know every detail of my private life or me hers, though she has shared a few nasty shots of her playmates with me. Nothing is off limits in terms of discussions we have, but she will tell me sometimes 'Mum, too much information!' which is OK.

My son OTOH is also very accepting of people's choices, but doesn't want to be privy to them in much detail (if at all..he has been known to remark about things he has heard or things left lying around such as crops, floggers, usually with a sly grin but a message all the same that he would prefer not to have to be exposed to them), and has definate ideas on what he doesn't find acceptable which is not near as broad than his sister's. He has a different personality which at times holds views and values which are far more strict than my daughter or I. Point is, you can raise your children openly, but they also have their own personality and values which may not reflect your own and so being poly as a parent could become an issue which could further create much bigger problems. They have as much right to feel the way they do as we do for the choices we make but as adults and parents we sometimes need to be aware our choices can negatively impact on them and take the responsibility seriously instead of just thinking at the level of what we want. I don't regret for a minute raising my children in such an open environment, but I also was careful to keep my sexual life separate and think of the impact it had on them, even in indirect ways of time and availability.

Catalina

 

[nh23]

We did scads of discussion prior to going into M/s. Part of it was on limits. "v" has limits, sure, but the way I like to think about them, and she agrees, is that all of them are essentially very soft limits. The only things that she considers hard limits are hard because I allow them to be. In other words, they're hard limits for me too. Realistically, I expect that if I pushed those hard limits, or tried to renegotiate them, we would have problems, but we're talking core things like not involving children.

Much like Netzach, I understand her physical and emotional capabilities. I dislike calling those limits simply because "limit" is a loaded word in this milieu, but it is an accurate word. Still, it reflects her capability to tolerate a certain level of stimuli. I know how far to push before she cries, and how far beyond that before she melts down. I then decide how far I want to go. Tears are common, but sobbing is not. I frequently like to see her cry, as it indicates commitment, but I hate to see her sob. Hopefully that makes sense.

So M/s is partially about a psuedo-lack of limits, and partially about a total lack of choice. It is more a mindset than anything else. At which point, defining it is brutally difficult. Examples are easier:

I want to play. I want to play with needles.

D/s: I mention the idea, or hint at it, and gauge her reaction. If she's nervous but not complaining too much, I push ahead. If she's scared to death, there's no reason to push because she'll safeword.

M/s: I grab the needles and tell her to strip.

We are almost to the point where we are running late for a dinner engagement. I decide that spanking that ass is more important than being on time.

D/s: She will respectfully complain and we will probably discuss the idea. She may or may not get spanked.

M/s: Baby gets her ass warmed. Any complaints become part of the pretty noises she makes.

The second example also occurs in stronger D/s dynamics. I'm including it to illustrate that the line is finely drawn. Hell, both examples can still be D/s, but, again, you get the point that the line is thin.

I agree it is a thin line...It gets a bit complicated in my mind sometimes. I consider my relationship with D D/s. I see him a few times a month and talk to him most every day, but I think it would be very hard to be in a M/s relationship since we don't live together. I know it can be done, and is done by many. I just think it would be hard for me, especially since I'm married/poly.

That being said in the year and a half that we've been together. I've never told him no. To anything. Granted he has never pushed on my hard limits of age play, scat, or animals. But..most likely because those are hard limits of his also. He has pushed many soft limits though, and saying no has never crossed my mind at all.

I think tears were brought up earlier. I have been spanked/hit to tears by D many, many times. He broke a crop on my ass last night..lol. Tears don't phase him, and don't make him ease up or stop. But, unlike someone in a M/s relationship I have a safeword. And he will respect my safeword, but to date I've only used it once and that was because a cane had cut my breasts open and they were bleeding and needed taken care of.

Same with your third example..if he says I'm getting my ass beat, I'm getting my ass beat. I'm not going to complain, respectfully or not. He's told me to do something, I'm not going to say no.

On the other hand he doesn't take a lot of control over my everyday life. I know what he expects and I live my life to those expectations. But, he rarely steps in and says eat this, or don't eat this, or wear this in particular..things like that. If he did I would do it..but he doesn't. He's told me I'm intelligent enough to know what he would expect and knows I wouldn't do things he wouldn't approve of. The only time I would disagree would be if it had a negative impact on my family, but that's a given. I don't think he would ever ask something like that. I also have the option to discuss things with him..but in the end he will make the decision he wants, he will take what I say into consideration...but he's not going to always just agree with me, and usually doesn't..lol. But, I do have the option of discussion.

 

[Homburg]

That being said in the year and a half that we've been together. I've never told him no. To anything.

*snip*

But, I do have the option of discussion.

This is where the nuances come in. You have the option to say no. Whether you exercise it or not, it's there. You have limits that you set. Whether he pushes them or not, they're still there. And you do not think of yourself as a slave. These taken together put your relationship as D/s, which is how you define it anyway.

And this sort of comparison is one reason why I see reluctance to discuss the difference between D/s and M/s. To a lot of D/s people, if you aren't micromanaging diet, clothing, bathroom times, etc, you're somehow not M/s. It's a mindset, not an action-set.

And part of that is because there are plenty of submissives that are more slave than submissive, and they just don't realise it.

For the record, I don't consider myself uber-hard-core Master. I'm not. It's not my thing. Nor is "v" uber-slave. And I don't sit there and test her and break her down just to prove to myself that I am ur-Master of all creation or some shit. We relate to each other how we relate to each other, and the way we choose to interact, and describe that interaction, is M/s. It's that's simple.

 

[nh23]

This is where the nuances come in. You have the option to say no. Whether you exercise it or not, it's there. You have limits that you set. Whether he pushes them or not, they're still there. And you do not think of yourself as a slave. These taken together put your relationship as D/s, which is how you define it anyway.

And this sort of comparison is one reason why I see reluctance to discuss the difference between D/s and M/s. To a lot of D/s people, if you aren't micromanaging diet, clothing, bathroom times, etc, you're somehow not M/s. It's a mindset, not an action-set.

And part of that is because there are plenty of submissives that are more slave than submissive, and they just don't realise it.

For the record, I don't consider myself uber-hard-core Master. I'm not. It's not my thing. Nor is "v" uber-slave. And I don't sit there and test her and break her down just to prove to myself that I am ur-Master of all creation or some shit. We relate to each other how we relate to each other, and the way we choose to interact, and describe that interaction, is M/s. It's that's simple.

*nods* Makes sense to me.

 

[sexycaz22]

Wow, thank you to everyone who have taken some time out to answer my question about the differences between a M/s relationship and a D/s relationship. I could see that it is extremely difficult to answer in generally, since everyone have a very different idea of what a M/s relationship means to them, and hey, that's fine! I like reading different ideas, just to get me to understand a little better!

I am really torn myself, I am a person who is exploring her pyl AND PYL sides, and as a pyl, I don't think I could enter a relationship where there would be someone who would have some control over most areas of my life, so I don't really see myself as a pyl in a M/s relationship. ..... however, as a PYL, I could see myself having a male submissive who would do everything I require and more. I would see myself having some control over him, within reasonable limits, of course. Like Homburg's examples, I could see myself doing that in a sorta of a M/s way. I don't know if this makes sense!

...ops, nh, once again I am hijacking this thread! Thank you very much, for allowing some room for me to ask questions, but if you wish me to move this discussion to another thread, I will be more than happy to.

 

[the captians wench]

I'm not much of a fan of the "alpha" numbering strategy in poly. Most of the poly situations I've seen go bad or contain unhappy persons have tried to work on that sort of strategy, and I am just not a fan of it seeing how it so often seems to end up causing nothing but hurt and insecurity. Why wouldn't it? It's playing favourites, and playing favourites has never gotten anyone in a good place in any sort of relationship.

Of course there are always exceptions, but it really upsets me when I read posts like wenchies where dominants seemingly forgo the simple step of respecting *every* person they are involved with. There is no excuse for treating anyone as a lesser person by slapping a number on her, and certainly not because they are "just a slave". I'm sorry you had that experience wenchie. I wouldn't call that poly. I'd call it utter bullshit.

People often ask me what our secret is, why Ma'ams relationships last so long and are so solid. We still have our share of problems and arguments and insecurities for certain, but every one of our relationships with Ma'am is unique and equal. Maybe not equal in time or equal in what is shared or what our roles are to her, as different people with different lives means for differences in relationship dynmaics. However, we all ARE equal in respect and love and in her desire for us to belong to her and to be a part of her lives. There is no alpha or secondary. There is just the Great Queen Poombah herself, and her loyal servants. In other words, there is just us.

I understand spouses coming first in regards to having input over whom their partner brings into the dynamic and what kind of limits are imposed, but I feel it should stop there and the others involved need have full knowledge of these limits beforehand. Once you take on the responsibility of maintaining a relationship with another person and holding stakes in their heart...it better damn well be on an equal level, at least as far as commitment is concerned.

Just sayin.

The relationship where I felt like "just a slave" was bullshit, all around, and while I do still have pain and scars from it, I don't regret it as some really good things did come of it, namely the relationship I'm in now *giggles*. Funny how things work out some times.

In my current situation, my place has really been a creation of my own mind for the most part. Now I don't live with them, and I am the new girl, but me being secondary is kind of a creation that I started and the primary has agreed with. I have always made it clear that I expect him to take care of her first, and it took her a while to really understand that I ment that. I think a big reason why it was hard for her is that while he reinforced that she would always come first (she is his wife after all) he never wants me to feel like I'm less important to him. That's a hard thing to accomplish, but so far I think he's done a good job of it as I've never felt unloved or uncherished by him.

So my seperation of primary and secondary has more to do with living arangements than anything else...well and the marriage thing too *giggles*. What's funny is that he takes an equal part in my life as Jounar, and that's been an interesting developement....especially as I have been doing a little bit of dating around as well....geese I feel like such a slut some times.

 

[the captians wench]

I agree with this 100%. This is why all those Dom/femsub couples looking for another femsub to join them as the "beta" sub, i.e., the person who gets all the shit and none of the real benefits, can never find anyone to do it. I mean, if I see all these requirements about how uber-subbie is Master's Number One Slave and everyone else is lesser than she, then I'd have no desire to be involved with that. I think most people wouldn't want to be in a relationship where they always knew that they were stuck firmly in second place and would never measure up, no matter what. It's kind of stupid, IMO, to place those kinds of restrictions on someone.

In my situation with master asshole, I had to fight to maintain 1st status. The girl that was with us longest coveted the position and it was made clear that she could very well earn it. He pushed me hard to be ontop of her, he wanted me to maintain 1st status because I had the service oreinted heart that he loved. I would have done anything for him, just to please him, and she could care less if he was happy with her or not just as long as she got played with how she wanted to be played with. But she had more of a dominant personality than I do, so it was very difficult for me to accert myself over her. I remember one scene where he talked to her about her topping me and I broke into tears. She didn't understand why I was upset, but he knew perfectly well what the tears were about. He called me to him and held me, and explained to her that I felt like I had disapointed him and that she was going to take my place as 1st, that that very thought destroyed my world, and because of this, because the thought of disapointing him was enough to send me into sobs, I was not going to loose my place, and I would never loose my position as his favorite even if I was not his 1st girl. She accepted this, but I think she liked having a female top her as well. Of course that was the last scene we did with her, and it wasn't long after that that I left as well. She was stronger than me, I always knew that.

 

[intothewoods]

Perhaps I can add a little to this. I bought both my children up in a household where transparency was very much the way everything went, and everything was open to discussion. They knew about sex, and were aware of my friends who were gay, kinky, or whatever, and that I was also involved personally and professionally in alternative and minority groups. They were also aware I was bi, and when and why I was looking for a partner into BDSM/D/s. They were raised seeing and loving movies such as Rocky Horror, Priscilla, Birdcage, Preaching To The Perverted and a horde of others. So in other words everything was open, they were exposed to more than most of their peers, but in a safe way.

Outcome is I have a daughter who is kinky in her own way, far more advanced and experienced than I was at her age in the world of BDSM, crossdressing, poly (I am often amazed at how she does handle her poly lifestyle with such ease and class), bisexuality etc., and is also not afraid to share and ask my advice on sexual matters, but still at times does not feel she needs to know every detail of my private life or me hers, though she has shared a few nasty shots of her playmates with me. Nothing is off limits in terms of discussions we have, but she will tell me sometimes 'Mum, too much information!' which is OK.

My son OTOH is also very accepting of people's choices, but doesn't want to be privy to them in much detail (if at all..he has been known to remark about things he has heard or things left lying around such as crops, floggers, usually with a sly grin but a message all the same that he would prefer not to have to be exposed to them), and has definate ideas on what he doesn't find acceptable which is not near as broad than his sister's. He has a different personality which at times holds views and values which are far more strict than my daughter or I. Point is, you can raise your children openly, but they also have their own personality and values which may not reflect your own and so being poly as a parent could become an issue which could further create much bigger problems. They have as much right to feel the way they do as we do for the choices we make but as adults and parents we sometimes need to be aware our choices can negatively impact on them and take the responsibility seriously instead of just thinking at the level of what we want. I don't regret for a minute raising my children in such an open environment, but I also was careful to keep my sexual life separate and think of the impact it had on them, even in indirect ways of time and availability.

Catalina

Just to interject...I think there are many different ways of being open. I don't plan on dishing details of my own sexual proclivities, as I have a pretty strong sense of my private space. On the other hand, I'm also pretty straightforward and open about the topic of sex, in an age appropriate way. I mean, at the moment, the discussion is limited to body parts, lol. I would love for my child to come to me and discuss relationship stuff, like you do, wench, but I don't see myself going into great detail about my stuff. Maybe when he's a grown up, but I don't know that he'd want to hear it then! There's also some difference between a daughter and mother on that score, I think. Who knows. You live, you learn.

 

[the captians wench]

Just to interject...I think there are many different ways of being open. I don't plan on dishing details of my own sexual proclivities, as I have a pretty strong sense of my private space. On the other hand, I'm also pretty straightforward and open about the topic of sex, in an age appropriate way. I mean, at the moment, the discussion is limited to body parts, lol. I would love for my child to come to me and discuss relationship stuff, like you do, wench, but I don't see myself going into great detail about my stuff. Maybe when he's a grown up, but I don't know that he'd want to hear it then! There's also some difference between a daughter and mother on that score, I think. Who knows. You live, you learn.

my brother and I were raised very simular to how cat discribes her children being raised. (with the great exception that anything "not normal" was evil) the outcome is pretty much the same, I am very self aware and very open about my sexuality even to the point of passing tips with my mom. Usually tho, I pass the tmi point in giving information way before I do in recieving.

My brother on the other hand is very private. To the point that he has admited to my mother that I embarrass him with how I dress. anything that involves what goes on in the bedroom should stay between those who are in said room in his mind.

That's fine for him, doesn't work for me, but I try to be respectful of him and since he has expressed a concern for my dress I have toned it down infront of him.

it is interesting the difference in how boys take things and relate them and how differently girls do.

 

[intothewoods]

my brother and I were raised very simular to how cat discribes her children being raised. (with the great exception that anything "not normal" was evil) the outcome is pretty much the same, I am very self aware and very open about my sexuality even to the point of passing tips with my mom. Usually tho, I pass the tmi point in giving information way before I do in recieving.

My brother on the other hand is very private. To the point that he has admited to my mother that I embarrass him with how I dress. anything that involves what goes on in the bedroom should stay between those who are in said room in his mind.

That's fine for him, doesn't work for me, but I try to be respectful of him and since he has expressed a concern for my dress I have toned it down infront of him.

it is interesting the difference in how boys take things and relate them and how differently girls do.

I suspect that the anything not normal is evil part may have made something of an impact. There are so many factors at play with how kids turn out. Read Freakonomics. It will blow your mind.

 

[unpredictablebijou]

Just to take it back to simple poly for the moment, since I got an interesting question and would love to hear how others weigh in on this:

the question was:

Is [a different poly relationship standard for each partner] acceptable in the end? Honestly? I keep hearing that poly only works if everybody has it equally. That it can't really function if all players aren't allowed to roam. Do you think that's the case?

Here's one answer:

I don't think that's necessarily the case, although I'm sure there are plenty of points of view on this. I think it very much depends on the reasons underneath the things we request of each other.

In a sense, there has to be some sort of difference in any standards in a relationship, because different people have different boundaries. If I say to you, fuck/dom/spank/play parcheesi with anyone you want but don't ever let me catch you giving a bitch marzipan unless you're bringing me twice as much, then that's obviously a personal boundary that you don't necessarily share. You, perhaps, couldn't give two shits about marzipan, but would have real issues if I ever went to see a Chuck Norris movie with anyone but you, my one and only. In that sense, what's good for the goose isn't necessarily good for the gander. We all have our individual personalities. When one brings the immense menu of BDSM activities into the picture, these things get even more complex.

What people mean though, when they say that everyone must be allowed “the same” thing, is a sort of equal respect: however much you force me to deal with stuff I'm not quite enlightened enough to handle yet, that's how much I get to do the same to you. And that can be anywhere on the scale of 'not at all' to 'constantly.' None at all is what most people try for. Quite a lot will force relationships and the people in them to evolve very quickly.

The main thing is, THAT issue needs to be equal. I only push you as far as you push me in terms of what we each like or can deal with. Frankly, even if that's not committed to consciously, it'll happen anyway. If x starts breaking the boundaries y has set, y will probably end up breaking x's, sorta by-mistake-on-purpose. People are like that. I end up talking to a lot of couples who have managed to get themselves into a tangle because of that issue. I call it the “O, YEAH?” syndrome. As in, 'o yeah, well if you're going to do that then I get to do this. So there.' Never a constructive mindset.

But if, say, there are couples where one person really NEEDS to go play and the other partner has no similar needs or desires, (and I know perfectly happy couples like this) so long as everyone's straightforward about that, it's going to be harmonic with the individual natures of the people involved.

I've already seen the book “The Ethical Slut” recommended once on this thread and I'll second that recommendation. It's a phenomenal help, not just for the exploration of poly, but for tools that would absolutely benefit even the most monogamous and vanilla of couples. The chapter on Jealousy is invaluable for anyone who's ever felt the sensation.

I dunno, what do other polyfolk think about a dynamic in which one partner is comfortable roaming and wants to, but can't really handle someone else doing the same, or when one wants to but the other doesn't?

peace,
bijou

 

[Homburg]

As before, you've given me plenty to think about, bijou. Thank you.

 

[nh23]

I dunno, what do other polyfolk think about a dynamic in which one partner is comfortable roaming and wants to, but can't really handle someone else doing the same, or when one wants to but the other doesn't

I agree with the first part of the post where you were talking about different boundaries. I know if swinging for example it's not uncommon for the couple to have "rules" such as no kissing, or no anal with anyone but the primary partner etc..I also understand personal boundaries. In my mind I don't consider that the type of inequality we were discussing. Just preferences.

As far as a dynamic where one partner really doesn't want to see other people..well that is their choice. I think the option should always remain open if they decide they do, but if they never want to, there really isn't any issue with equality since the option is there.

Now as far as one person wanting to roam but can't handle the other partner doing it..In my opinion, (I know this may cause an uproar..) That's not a poly mindset..that's a cheaters mindset. Most of the people I know in poly relationships who are wired to be poly, have no problem with more than one partner for themselves, or their partner. That's kinda what poly relationships are all about..at least in my mind.

 

[Bi_Kitty]

In my opinion, (I know this may cause an uproar..) That's not a poly mindset..that's a cheaters mindset. Most of the people I know in poly relationships who are wired to be poly, have no problem with more than one partner for themselves, or their partner. That's kinda what poly relationships are all about..at least in my mind.

That's what I think poly is, too. In that case, I see people saying I'm poly to use it as a way they can have more than one partner and not feel guilty for it when they don't want their S/O having more than one partner.

 

[JMohegan]

Now as far as one person wanting to roam but can't handle the other partner doing it..In my opinion, (I know this may cause an uproar..) That's not a poly mindset..that's a cheaters mindset.

No uproar here, but what you are describing is far from rare where when it comes to Masters/Dom/mes and poly - situations in which the one on Top is shared, but does not share the ones he/she controls.

 

[nh23]

No uproar here, but what you are describing is far from rare where when it comes to Masters/Dom/mes and poly - situations in which the one on Top is shared, but does not share the ones he/she controls.

*nods* I'm aware of that. I don't agree with it..but I'm aware it happens.

 

[Netzach]

No uproar here, but what you are describing is far from rare where when it comes to Masters/Dom/mes and poly - situations in which the one on Top is shared, but does not share the ones he/she controls.

I don't have any problems with H's sexuality being spread out. In fact I want him to rely on other people for a lot of his sexual fulfillment. In terms of D/s though, I don't expect anyone's wishes to conflict with mine, ever, as "what must be obeyed."

I don't see a huge ton of success in the long range for relationships structured as you're describing them, unless M/s is really really primary above sexuality and romance across the board. The slave would have to be more content with a restricted sexuality than a free one, and I'm just not sure that people who are *wired* poly rather than situationally poly are ever wired like that, necessarily.

I have to admit, as much as I do as I please, I *still* get a bit jealous if my Bull opts for a dirty weekend with a T-girl friend over one with me - our opportunities are limited. But a bull is a bull is a bull, I know what I got when I got one, and it's not going to use the litter box my kitty uses like I want it to. So I deal with it and focus on what I like about bulls. While it may make me a little steamed and woman scorned ish inside, I also wouldn't *change* it, or *change* him.

And the fact is that I have and hold the vast majority of his attention and affection and I know that. Besides, why kill the possibility of the 3-way with a cute T girl?

But everyone experiences moments of jealousy I think.
Except M. I married a freak of the best possible kind. I've prodded him every which way and I really think he doesn't experiences it, sexually, jealousy, that is. Almost takes some of the fun out of cuckolding!

It's just that for me, the cost is minimal in regard to the benefit.

 

[JMohegan]

*nods* I'm aware of that. I don't agree with it..but I'm aware it happens.

I don't practice it, and I agree with Netzach that the success rate for that type of arrangement is pretty freakin' low, but I think it's unfair to say that every such situation involves a "cheater's mindset".

In cases such as the one Serijules describes with her owner, it sounds to me more like an intense M/s mindset. Accentuating the distinction between owner and property, and therefore enhancing the dynamic on which both the M and s thrive.

 

[BiBunny]

I don't practice it, and I agree with Netzach that the success rate for that type of arrangement is pretty freakin' low, but I think it's unfair to say that every such situation involves a "cheater's mindset".

In cases such as the one Serijules describes with her owner, it sounds to me more like an intense M/s mindset. Accentuating the distinction between owner and property, and therefore enhancing the dynamic on which both the M and s thrive.

I think what distinguishes seri's relationship from the kinds of relationships nh is talking about is that seri was aware of what she was getting into. It wasn't like her Ma'am was telling her that it was going to be a monogamous relationship, and then once seri was firmly locked into slave mode, her Ma'am told her, "Well, never mind, I changed my mind and decided I want to have more subs, but you don't get to play with anyone else, sorry."

Informed consent makes all the difference, IMO. And "informed consent" doesn't count when you're already in an established relationship and throwing the "I'm the Master" thing around.