Polyamory

[nh23]

For reasons i am not comfortable sharing in public, this has been a great thread to read.

Thank you, nh for starting it.

Aww..thank you! I am so happy I started this thread. I've gotten so many thank you's on here and in PM. I'm glad it's helpful to so many people. Makes me feel good that I can help a bit.

 

[nh23]

This is going to sound callous, but the biggest challenge for me was (and still is) finding compatible partners. I've never had this really big crisis of faith about any aspect of my sexuality (the bi part, the kinky switch part, the poly part, any of it), though I understand that a lot of people do.

You know I never have either. I am who I am. I've never felt guilty about that. I know some people struggle with that. I can't imagine how hard it would be..

 

[EmpressFi]

It's a little bit different for me as I am not in a M/s, or D/s relationship with my husband. I am in a D/s relationship with my Dom. My husband and I also both have the right to see others. But, when it comes down to it..the core issues are pretty much the same for everyone.

Malin and I are the same. He and I are not in a D/s relationship with each other. When we started, he had 2 girlfriends, then he "took on" his third. She became his OSO and his Mistress. I've had a tryst with a friend, but I only count my Master as a true relationship and he and I are D/s.

Our biggest thing to overcome? Hmm well other than the idea that we were really going to be ok doing this? That sleeping with others, having other relationships were not going to ruin what we had, that was our first obstacle. Second, for us both, has been jealousy.

When Master and I started dating, he was seeing someone else. She knew about me, as is his rule, however after being with me, he decided to end their relationship. In that month when he was seeing us both, I was extremely jealous. I agree with the, "what if she does something and he likes her more?" What if I'm replaced? But it's also not fair that he be alone while I have Malin to snuggle with at night.

I'll let Malin discuss his issues with being poly.

Again, I'd suggest reading "The Ethical Slut" to anyone thinking of becoming polyamorous. Chapter 7 is the one on jealousy.

 

[Netzach]

I did enough fucking up in my transition out of one relationship for a lifetime, so my complication is, like BiBunny, one of finding the right people, those on my page, and even then not so difficult. I really think that the particular men I'm with are a good blend of characteristics, all very different and diverse, and I credit their fabulousness more than I do my own brilliance with this whole thing. I think getting to the point where I felt entitled to want or expect the unthinkable was really it, deciding that, fuck it, I can have my cake, eat it, and stick my tongue out like a ten year old with chewed cake on it to anyone who has a problem with it.

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

I can have my cake, eat it, and stick my tongue out like a ten year old with chewed cake on it to anyone who has a problem with it.

Woo Hoo Kodak moment Netz styling !

 

[Homburg]

So Unpredictablebijou and I were having a conversation by PM, and poly comes up. She lives in an MMF triad household, and we got to talking about that. She had the idea that the converdsation would probably fit well here, and thus, with her agreement, I am reposting it here.

I find it interesting that you live in a MMF poly household. How does that work, if you don't mind me asking? Is everyone kinky? Is there a power dynamic?

]I don't mind at all. I'm quite accustomed to questions. I'm the sort of weirdo that gets invited to poly conferences to talk about my views, so I'm used to this. I'll probably weigh in on the poly thread pretty soon.

My mates are probably two of the least kinky men in the world. Russ introduced me to edgeplay, because he rather enjoys that one kink, but other than that they're both quite average.

No power structure, except I suppose it could be said that as the female, as well as the on-paper owner of the house and land, I'm a bit more in charge of stuff than the guys. We're very egalitarian in terms of interaction.

Michael and I have been together for fifteen years. Russell joined the household about six years ago. They are straight and have no sexual interaction but they're good friends and have interests and pursuits in common. We have always had a flexible poly relationship.

M and I have both had other lovers, both long and short term, and when I met Russ we considered him carefully before deciding that he needed to be part of the household. He came in as a "secondary" relationship but we're a very equal triad these days. We're pretty non-legislative compared to most poly households; I'm the most radical in terms of what I get up to, but the guys are aware that what they have here is a very strangely wired and exceptional grrrl, so they're unsurprised by just about everything I come up with, and very tolerant of my peccadillos.

I have a couple of friends that I go play with, and frankly I'm high-maintenance enough that I believe the guys really appreciate the break. They both know my primary dom/switch lover, and they are actually quite friendly and grateful to him for the good he seems to do me. Russ has a girlfriend as well, a completely sweet-tempered little thing who is quite the opposite of me in many ways and is a very good influence on him. I adore her. Michael has occasional playmates as well.

We're all pretty high-maintenance, and I've always said that one of the strengths of a triad is that hi-maint folks like us can have a sort of 'management team' of two people, rather than putting all one's needs on a single person. That was never more obvious than when we lost our only child, a baby daughter, about four years ago; had we been a conventional dyad, we might have been destroyed; in a situation like that 75% of marriages fail because the partners are both so weak that they have no ability to help one another. The fact that each of us had TWO people to rely on during that time was a primary factor in the survival of the household.

Like many people, it was partly that defining tragedy that led me toward exploring the whole area of BDSM. I feel that those roads have helped me re-define pain and emotional states in a way that no other pursuit would have. I know a woman with a similar story - she began exploring high sensation and submission as a part of dealing with her grief over her mother's death. There's great value in that sort of exploration.

But I digress.

The best illustration of our household structure was when, about five years ago, Michael and I decided it was time to actually do the Big Handfasting/Wedding Event Thing with the whole family. We're casual enough that M just said, well, you wanna go ahead and have the big party? We'd been jumping the fire every year for ten years or so at that point, so we had the big event and invited everyone.

My family was pretty concerned, being all pretty normal, that Russ was some sort of usurper who was going to "take me away" from Michael. Quite the contrary, he actually took a primary role in the handfasting ceremony, and made it clear that the partnership between M and I was his highest priority. It was rather gorgeous.

Perhaps the only power structure is that the guys are rather focused on me, perhaps as much out of self-preservation as anything. Over the years I've noticed that I'm referred to simply as "She." You can hear the capitalization in the tone. It's rather amusing.

my, I do go on. Thanks for the question. I am fiercely grateful for the household I have and I love talking about the way it works.

My reply, and the continuance of the conversation into the next question:

Thank you for describing your situation. It is honestly very interesting, and it sounds like you have a very functional relationship there.

What is your emotional status with the outside relationships? From what I have seen, poly arrangements seem to be closed loops. This is obviously not the case in your situation. How does that resolve?

[/QUOTE]

(For complete disclosure's sake, there has been some redacting going on. Not everything in my posts was fit for public consumption. Unpredictablebijou had no such reservations.)

Please feel free to join in with your questions.

 

[unpredictablebijou]

Lovely job with the pasting, darlin'.

You ask an excellent question here:

What is your emotional status with the outside relationships? From what I have seen, poly arrangements seem to be closed loops. This is obviously not the case in your situation. How does that resolve?

For us, we take everything on a case by case basis, since there's an acknowledgment that every situation is different because every person is different. So we don't really legislate; we wait until something happens, look at the situation and choose how to respond.

I think one of the absolutes for us is that it's essential that "secondary" relationships, that is, those outside our "primary" triad, be with people who have positive intent about our household. If I meet someone and become interested, the first thing I'm going to do is make sure he or she believes that my household is important and has respect for our commitment to one another.

One way of saying that is that the first "relationship" has to be with the dyad, that is, the relationship between the two primary partners. Secondary to that is one's loyalty to the individuals. I demand playmates that are able to say, your men are obviously good for you, and you for them, and I would never do anything that conflicts with that.

In fact, we tend to look for a "net positive" - my playmate sends me home happy and amiable, and I am consequently better company for my mates. He or she has respect for both the triad and its individuals, and wants to do things that benefit those relationships. And in return, he or she gets to have me for a playmate. Everybody wins.

Any sign of disrespect for either my men or my commitments would be an instant deal-breaker for me, and it's the same with the guys.

Within that structure, our secondary relationships can be very deep, and very personal, because we've set a foundation of trust that we aren't going to be out hooking up with people who want to tear the household down.

My only two 'rules' as such are "send him home happy" and "send him home with a little bit left for me."

oh yeah, and there's the rule about how nobody gets marzipan unless I get some too, but that's another story.


mmm. marzipan.

bijou

 

[Homburg]

Thanks, UP. This is exactly the sort of info I was looking for. I will attempt to think of more questions.

 

[the captians wench]

I think my biggest problem has always been that moment when I have to accept my place.

Unless you really consider Jounar has never been forbidding of me having playmates here, until the relationships I found here became serious, then he had issues that caused the largest fight we have ever had. but that's not what I'm talking about here

My first experience with poly here was at first my choice. I knew that he had a girlfriend, a live in and she was his primary, and I would never meet her or his daughter or have anything to do with them. And while I sat up many nights missing him, wanting more time with him, I accepted my place, I was only a slave, I had "no right" to his time. Then he forced more girls on me, and while I was first among slaves, they were always more dominant figures than I am, so it was hard to maintain my posisstion as first, and I soon felt not even good enought to be just a slave...things went down hill from there.

in my current situation I'm not a primary either, but I'm not "just a slave". I'm a cherished pet and it's made all the difference. I can't say that there aren't some nights that I do "feel my place", but in this situation it's been a lot easier to deal with, mainly because we all try to be understanding and make it work. I know I'm not primary, but I don't really feel secondary either anymore...more...something in the middle.

 

[Netzach]

Lovely job with the pasting, darlin'.

You ask an excellent question here:



For us, we take everything on a case by case basis, since there's an acknowledgment that every situation is different because every person is different. So we don't really legislate; we wait until something happens, look at the situation and choose how to respond.

I think one of the absolutes for us is that it's essential that "secondary" relationships, that is, those outside our "primary" triad, be with people who have positive intent about our household. If I meet someone and become interested, the first thing I'm going to do is make sure he or she believes that my household is important and has respect for our commitment to one another.

One way of saying that is that the first "relationship" has to be with the dyad, that is, the relationship between the two primary partners. Secondary to that is one's loyalty to the individuals. I demand playmates that are able to say, your men are obviously good for you, and you for them, and I would never do anything that conflicts with that.

In fact, we tend to look for a "net positive" - my playmate sends me home happy and amiable, and I am consequently better company for my mates. He or she has respect for both the triad and its individuals, and wants to do things that benefit those relationships. And in return, he or she gets to have me for a playmate. Everybody wins.

Any sign of disrespect for either my men or my commitments would be an instant deal-breaker for me, and it's the same with the guys.

Within that structure, our secondary relationships can be very deep, and very personal, because we've set a foundation of trust that we aren't going to be out hooking up with people who want to tear the household down.

My only two 'rules' as such are "send him home happy" and "send him home with a little bit left for me."

oh yeah, and there's the rule about how nobody gets marzipan unless I get some too, but that's another story.


mmm. marzipan.

bijou

This sounds a bit like how things are by me. Not totally equivalent, as we're not a household of more than two and probably will not go that route, but I think that the "net positive effect" rule is really the driving force in my choices and M's choices.

I'm also in an MMF situation and I know that secondary partners of M's will probably also be male - his inclination.

 

[sexycaz22]

unpredictablebijou and Homburg, I wanted to say thank you both for sharing your questions & answers/views with us.

It has been a very interesting read.

Thank you!

If you don't mind, I am going to make a mini-hijack if NH doesn't mind, and ask, what is the difference between a M/s relationship and a D/s relationship in generally? (I know, as always, answers can be very individual but I would like to have a better understanding of both relationships, and I know it's nothing to do with the topic but some of you mentioned poly in a M/s relationship so I just wanted to ask a quick question to get a better understanding, for peace of mind!)

 

[unpredictablebijou]

This sounds a bit like how things are by me. Not totally equivalent, as we're not a household of more than two and probably will not go that route, but I think that the "net positive effect" rule is really the driving force in my choices and M's choices.

I'm also in an MMF situation and I know that secondary partners of M's will probably also be male - his inclination.

Yep, I really think this is the big one. For us, it has to be completely clear that anyone coming into the dynamic gets that, and is in fact actively interested in supporting those commitments.

I'm the only bisexual in the household, but I see gender as a complete non-issue, perhaps because of that. I don't care who it is, so long as they're being safe and they know where they stand.

I look at that and it sounds really domineering, like I'm going to say to a playmate, 'you are never going to be as important to me as my primaries' and it's really not like that. It's more that the people we find often develop a relationship with the household first, and only later do they become potential partners for one of us, so by then they have an inherent understanding of how we work things.

I can't hide shit, I can't lie, and I'm no good at keeping track of subtle arrangements. My family and friends know, obviously, that what we have is two men and a woman all living together, and they're allowed to know, or not know, whatever they choose. I don't force info on anybody, but I'm not going to try to hide the facts either.

The parents, for example, have for the most part chosen to Formally Not Notice What's Going On. That's fine. I don't press them to know more than they want to. But the rest of our friends are pretty aware, and so when out of that group someone approaches as a potential lover for one of us, they're already with the program.

it is rather amazing the sorts of questions people ask. If it were possible to offend me, which it really isn't, I'd have had plenty of opportunities. It's amazing that our friends would never go there, but relative strangers have asked me things like, "so who do you have more sex with, M or R?" I mostly find it amusing, but I do find that if you're poly you'd better not be oversensitive to shit like that.

Wenchie, darlin', I have never been where you are, but I'm glad you're at least improving the situation you're in - it really sounds like the previous arrangement was pretty abusive, or at least not so great for the self-esteem. Don't think I could deal with that. A "cherished pet" is a lovely thing to be, though. At moments I have felt like that myself. That IS good for the self-esteem.

blessings,
bijou

 

[Netzach]

I used to see gender as a total non-issue, but I've observed so many female triads and M/f/f's and F/m/f's around me just blow up that I can't help but feel that somehow the demographics are in my favor, at least among the core 3 parties.

 

[unpredictablebijou]

I used to see gender as a total non-issue, but I've observed so many female triads and M/f/f's and F/m/f's around me just blow up that I can't help but feel that somehow the demographics are in my favor, at least among the core 3 parties.

That is very possibly true.

Goes back to that other set of threads about whether we understand or approve of men/women. (I voted pie filling). I try not to even dip my toes into the subject of What Men\Women are Like and How They're Different because that way lies madness, but here's an interesting idea. I bet if you did a study of triadic households, you'd find that MMF triads usually last longer than MFF ones. That's just a hypothesis; I have only my own tiny observations to back that up.

I think it's just because we're bitches. *grin*

bijou

 

[LittleJade]

My partner and I have a, for the most part, poly relationship. Sometimes, he feels the need to pull back, and that can cause some havoc in any relationship I have going on, with other people... and I know that people have been hurt because of it. I am always open about this possibility with those I involve myself with.

My partner is completely vanilla.... now and then, he'll pick up a flogger, or spank me... but he doesn't understand WHY I like it... just that I do.

He's given me permission to find other lovers in the past, as well as dominants and submissives, and I've encouraged him to find other lovers as well, but... he wants only me.

We're working slowly into bringing others into our bedroom- we had a friend and her husband over a while ago, and that was fun... we're working on bringing them over again in the new year. In the meantime, we talk. We work together. We plan our wedding.

 

[serijules]

I'm not much of a fan of the "alpha" numbering strategy in poly. Most of the poly situations I've seen go bad or contain unhappy persons have tried to work on that sort of strategy, and I am just not a fan of it seeing how it so often seems to end up causing nothing but hurt and insecurity. Why wouldn't it? It's playing favourites, and playing favourites has never gotten anyone in a good place in any sort of relationship.

Of course there are always exceptions, but it really upsets me when I read posts like wenchies where dominants seemingly forgo the simple step of respecting *every* person they are involved with. There is no excuse for treating anyone as a lesser person by slapping a number on her, and certainly not because they are "just a slave". I'm sorry you had that experience wenchie. I wouldn't call that poly. I'd call it utter bullshit.

People often ask me what our secret is, why Ma'ams relationships last so long and are so solid. We still have our share of problems and arguments and insecurities for certain, but every one of our relationships with Ma'am is unique and equal. Maybe not equal in time or equal in what is shared or what our roles are to her, as different people with different lives means for differences in relationship dynmaics. However, we all ARE equal in respect and love and in her desire for us to belong to her and to be a part of her lives. There is no alpha or secondary. There is just the Great Queen Poombah herself, and her loyal servants. In other words, there is just us.

I understand spouses coming first in regards to having input over whom their partner brings into the dynamic and what kind of limits are imposed, but I feel it should stop there and the others involved need have full knowledge of these limits beforehand. Once you take on the responsibility of maintaining a relationship with another person and holding stakes in their heart...it better damn well be on an equal level, at least as far as commitment is concerned.

Just sayin.

 

[serijules]

If you don't mind, I am going to make a mini-hijack if NH doesn't mind, and ask, what is the difference between a M/s relationship and a D/s relationship in generally?

For me, the difference between M/s and D/s is simple. Limits.

Ma'am has two D/s relationships and one M/s, that being with me. The difference between me and the others is I have no limits, no room for negotiation. There is certainly just as much respect for me and she doesn't make decisions regarding me lightly by any means, but the simple fact of the matter is that she DOES make them, and I accept that without question.

The working dynamics between M/s and D/s may be so similar for some they are nearly the same thing. There is no real definition of either, it's such a personal journey. However, the main distinguishing line for *me* lies within the limits, or lack thereof.

 

[BiBunny]

I'm not much of a fan of the "alpha" numbering strategy in poly. Most of the poly situations I've seen go bad or contain unhappy persons have tried to work on that sort of strategy, and I am just not a fan of it seeing how it so often seems to end up causing nothing but hurt and insecurity. Why wouldn't it? It's playing favourites, and playing favourites has never gotten anyone in a good place in any sort of relationship.

Of course there are always exceptions, but it really upsets me when I read posts like wenchies where dominants seemingly forgo the simple step of respecting *every* person they are involved with. There is no excuse for treating anyone as a lesser person by slapping a number on her, and certainly not because they are "just a slave". I'm sorry you had that experience wenchie. I wouldn't call that poly. I'd call it utter bullshit.

People often ask me what our secret is, why Ma'ams relationships last so long and are so solid. We still have our share of problems and arguments and insecurities for certain, but every one of our relationships with Ma'am is unique and equal. Maybe not equal in time or equal in what is shared or what our roles are to her, as different people with different lives means for differences in relationship dynmaics. However, we all ARE equal in respect and love and in her desire for us to belong to her and to be a part of her lives. There is no alpha or secondary. There is just the Great Queen Poombah herself, and her loyal servants. In other words, there is just us.

I understand spouses coming first in regards to having input over whom their partner brings into the dynamic and what kind of limits are imposed, but I feel it should stop there and the others involved need have full knowledge of these limits beforehand. Once you take on the responsibility of maintaining a relationship with another person and holding stakes in their heart...it better damn well be on an equal level, at least as far as commitment is concerned.

Just sayin.

I agree with this 100%. This is why all those Dom/femsub couples looking for another femsub to join them as the "beta" sub, i.e., the person who gets all the shit and none of the real benefits, can never find anyone to do it. I mean, if I see all these requirements about how uber-subbie is Master's Number One Slave and everyone else is lesser than she, then I'd have no desire to be involved with that. I think most people wouldn't want to be in a relationship where they always knew that they were stuck firmly in second place and would never measure up, no matter what. It's kind of stupid, IMO, to place those kinds of restrictions on someone.

 

[Homburg]

I agree with this 100%. This is why all those Dom/femsub couples looking for another femsub to join them as the "beta" sub, i.e., the person who gets all the shit and none of the real benefits, can never find anyone to do it. I mean, if I see all these requirements about how uber-subbie is Master's Number One Slave and everyone else is lesser than she, then I'd have no desire to be involved with that. I think most people wouldn't want to be in a relationship where they always knew that they were stuck firmly in second place and would never measure up, no matter what. It's kind of stupid, IMO, to place those kinds of restrictions on someone.

During the short time we were poly, I stressed constantly that there was no alpha or beta. I tried to keep the relationships different, and occupying distinct emotional niches. Didn't quite work out, but it beat alpha/beta stuff.

 

[rida]

I agree with this 100%. This is why all those Dom/femsub couples looking for another femsub to join them as the "beta" sub, i.e., the person who gets all the shit and none of the real benefits, can never find anyone to do it. I mean, if I see all these requirements about how uber-subbie is Master's Number One Slave and everyone else is lesser than she, then I'd have no desire to be involved with that. I think most people wouldn't want to be in a relationship where they always knew that they were stuck firmly in second place and would never measure up, no matter what. It's kind of stupid, IMO, to place those kinds of restrictions on someone.

In the example you present (the beta sub getting the shitty end of the stick), I think it takes a very very special mental frame to accept the role ... and I honestly would think that the person might have some underling issues ... but I am sure that there is someone out there whose kink is to be utmost last in line.

What I see as the problem is not being alpha or beta or omega. I think that regardless of the pecking order, respect and love should be given/received equally. What would make the arrangement unfair is that the non-alpha person's needs do not get met or considered.

Where I see the order making a difference is in the case of conflicting issues, where someone has to take the precedence over the other. It would be great if it never had to happen ... but in life it does. In those instances, if it can be discussed and worked out to everybodies satisfaction ... good! , otherwise it should be understood that the alpha comes first. Period.

my two yen worth ...

 

[Netzach]

During the short time we were poly, I stressed constantly that there was no alpha or beta. I tried to keep the relationships different, and occupying distinct emotional niches. Didn't quite work out, but it beat alpha/beta stuff.

Niche/ecosystem model here too. Everyone has the security of knowing there's something they do for me that no one else on earth could do remotely as well - it's like saying "well my mouth is beta to my butthole which is alpha to my legs" - I really do want all of those. H is taunted rejected humiliated and sexually denied as part of his role - but he relishes the fact that NONE of the others would "go there" and I fucking LOVE to "go there." I need to "go there."

I would not have a primary partner had I not found one who is as freakishly UN jealous as the one I have. I know that I would not be willing to negotiate my sexuality around someone's jealousy, and I think that had I not found M or someone as unusually into the poly thing tinged with cuckolding as he is, there is no doubt in my mind that I'd be living alone with several important but juggled relationships.

 

[nh23]

I'm not much of a fan of the "alpha" numbering strategy in poly. Most of the poly situations I've seen go bad or contain unhappy persons have tried to work on that sort of strategy, and I am just not a fan of it seeing how it so often seems to end up causing nothing but hurt and insecurity. Why wouldn't it? It's playing favourites, and playing favourites has never gotten anyone in a good place in any sort of relationship.

Of course there are always exceptions, but it really upsets me when I read posts like wenchies where dominants seemingly forgo the simple step of respecting *every* person they are involved with. There is no excuse for treating anyone as a lesser person by slapping a number on her, and certainly not because they are "just a slave". I'm sorry you had that experience wenchie. I wouldn't call that poly. I'd call it utter bullshit.

People often ask me what our secret is, why Ma'ams relationships last so long and are so solid. We still have our share of problems and arguments and insecurities for certain, but every one of our relationships with Ma'am is unique and equal. Maybe not equal in time or equal in what is shared or what our roles are to her, as different people with different lives means for differences in relationship dynmaics. However, we all ARE equal in respect and love and in her desire for us to belong to her and to be a part of her lives. There is no alpha or secondary. There is just the Great Queen Poombah herself, and her loyal servants. In other words, there is just us.

I understand spouses coming first in regards to having input over whom their partner brings into the dynamic and what kind of limits are imposed, but I feel it should stop there and the others involved need have full knowledge of these limits beforehand. Once you take on the responsibility of maintaining a relationship with another person and holding stakes in their heart...it better damn well be on an equal level, at least as far as commitment is concerned.

Just sayin.

*nods* Very well said.

 

[nh23]

unpredictablebijou and Homburg, I wanted to say thank you both for sharing your questions & answers/views with us.

It has been a very interesting read.

Thank you!

If you don't mind, I am going to make a mini-hijack if NH doesn't mind, and ask, what is the difference between a M/s relationship and a D/s relationship in generally? (I know, as always, answers can be very individual but I would like to have a better understanding of both relationships, and I know it's nothing to do with the topic but some of you mentioned poly in a M/s relationship so I just wanted to ask a quick question to get a better understanding, for peace of mind!)

I don't mind the hijack at all! I agree with seri. I see M/s as the slave having no limits. I'm in a D/s relationship. I have a few hard limits..age play, animals, scat..he knows that asking me or trying to make me do any of these is a deal breaker. Slaves give up their rights to have limits.

 

[Netzach]

I don't mind the hijack at all! I agree with seri. I see M/s as the slave having no limits. I'm in a D/s relationship. I have a few hard limits..age play, animals, scat..he knows that asking me or trying to make me do any of these is a deal breaker. Slaves give up their rights to have limits.

I'm not sure that's the defining thing for me, it's just that slaves really need to be on the same page as their owners because they generally let their owners set limits. Slaves still have limits -silly example - I *know* how much H can take with clothespins and I instinctively use that information - I could use many more than he can take without him necessarily feeling like I'd abused him, but I still have consequences, cost-benefits to think about, and basic physical limitations that I have to pay attention to. Do I feel like breaking him down to the sobbing point today or not?

To me it's more about being property, having expectations, giving up the right to control your owner in any regard in relation to you. H can rest assured about nothing - he's really leaving himself in my hands. He knows I know his wishes and he trusts I know his needs and he's researched me and spoken to me for many many hours to know that we share a lot of values.

 

[nh23]

I'm not sure that's the defining thing for me, it's just that slaves really need to be on the same page as their owners because they generally let their owners set limits. Slaves still have limits -silly example - I *know* how much H can take with clothespins and I instinctively use that information - I could use many more than he can take without him necessarily feeling like I'd abused him, but I still have consequences, cost-benefits to think about, and basic physical limitations that I have to pay attention to. Do I feel like breaking him down to the sobbing point today or not?

To me it's more about being property, having expectations, giving up the right to control your owner in any regard in relation to you. H can rest assured about nothing - he's really leaving himself in my hands. He knows I know his wishes and he trusts I know his needs and he's researched me and spoken to me for many many hours to know that we share a lot of values.

Thank You Netzach. I myself don't have any experience with M/s only D/s. So I was mainly posting what I've heard and been told about M/s relationships. I appreciate your input. I learned something new today.