M/s...why or why not?

[BiBunny]

i think Owner/pet is a perfect (and pretty cute too) way to describe your relationship Bunny, from what you've shared about it here. Owner/pet can really just be looked at as a type of M/s imho.

Thanks! I think so, too.

 

[intothewoods]

Fwiw, I wasn't objecting to JM's approach or defending yelling orarguing, for that matter. Just explaining that I follow the leader quite well, but I may have a reaction to his decision and I tend to work it through out loud.

Yeah, this. I think that is why D/s didn't sit with me as well, but M/s does. With D/s, I felt bogged down by trappings, contracts, etc. M/s, and lack of trappings, is much more natural, less role-ish.

Another fwiw but what the heck. I am not into contracts and Mister Man is way not into contracts or trappings. I don't have a collar, except one we bought together for a party on a lark.

Mister Man is kind of a cross between JM and Netz (with her husband), I would say. Sort of. Essentially it's like, whatever he wants sexually and take care of the domestic shit and then I am free to paint the walls whatever color I want.

 

[tkvh4u2]

I would so get my ass kicked. Or get my ass kicked out of the relationship. Your Daddy must be a very patient man.

Funny, I was thinking the same thing. I would get a look and know I'd pay for that later on!

 

[ownedsubgal]

I'm curious about how much M's consider the legal implications. I mean what if you were to "break your toy" and said toy or the family of the toy went after you legally?

most Owners with any common sense know their toys. that is why the trust thing goes both ways. if anything, my Master needs to trust me far more than i need to trust him. if i don't trust him, or don't trust him completely, i'm still a slave, life still goes on, it's just not quite as comfy. if he doesn't trust me, he does not have the freedom and peace of mind required to truly live and just be himself. He has to wonder and worry and second guess.

so yeah, trust is crucial. an Owner has to know that his slave is loyal, that they are devoted, that they take the commitment and their place in it seriously. Daddy knows that if he breaks a bone or two i'm not going to pick up the phone and dial the local women's shelter, just the idea of such would be ridiculous to me.

 

[eastern sun]

it's true that we haven't come across many M/s unions similar to ours. it's like, either we relate to folks on the romance/madly in love aspect, or we relate to folks on the cold harsh realities of life and suffering aspect, but for the majority of M/s folks it seems that these two aspects don't fit within the same relationship. for us tho, it works and makes sense.

Have you come across many M/s unions that were similar to each other?

Though the external details of our lives differ greatly, I have identified with many of the feelings and internal experiences you have expressed. By definition, I think the shape of the relationship depends on the nature of the master in an M/s relationship. But I find it very interesting that the feeling-experience of the slave no matter what the circumstances are often bear striking similarities.

I'd be curious if masters feel the same way.

 

[nh23]

most Owners with any common sense know their toys. that is why the trust thing goes both ways. if anything, my Master needs to trust me far more than i need to trust him. if i don't trust him, or don't trust him completely, i'm still a slave, life still goes on, it's just not quite as comfy. if he doesn't trust me, he does not have the freedom and peace of mind required to truly live and just be himself. He has to wonder and worry and second guess.

so yeah, trust is crucial. an Owner has to know that his slave is loyal, that they are devoted, that they take the commitment and their place in it seriously. Daddy knows that if he breaks a bone or two i'm not going to pick up the phone and dial the local women's shelter, just the idea of such would be ridiculous to me.

While you and I have some of the same ideas osg, this one I'm different. If Master breaks one of my bones by accident like during play, no biggie. If he breaks one of my bones on purpose..I'm not going to yell abuse. I'm not going to call the cops. I am however going to reevaluate my relationship with him. That's just not a good Master in my book.

 

[Keroin]

most Owners with any common sense know their toys. that is why the trust thing goes both ways. if anything, my Master needs to trust me far more than i need to trust him. if i don't trust him, or don't trust him completely, i'm still a slave, life still goes on, it's just not quite as comfy. if he doesn't trust me, he does not have the freedom and peace of mind required to truly live and just be himself. He has to wonder and worry and second guess.

so yeah, trust is crucial. an Owner has to know that his slave is loyal, that they are devoted, that they take the commitment and their place in it seriously. Daddy knows that if he breaks a bone or two i'm not going to pick up the phone and dial the local women's shelter, just the idea of such would be ridiculous to me.

What would be too much for you? WHen would you call the shelter or the police? Just curious?

 

[Netzach]

Have you come across many M/s unions that were similar to each other?

Though the external details of our lives differ greatly, I have identified with many of the feelings and internal experiences you have expressed. By definition, I think the shape of the relationship depends on the nature of the master in an M/s relationship. But I find it very interesting that the feeling-experience of the slave no matter what the circumstances are often bear striking similarities.

I'd be curious if masters feel the same way.

I can't be more diametrically bizzaro world opposite than osg and her Daddy from what I know of him via posting. I often worry that I'll be deemed bad influence and put on ignore.

But I can't begin to count the number of times that emotionally on a gut philosophical level it's like "oh yeah. Totally" when she talks about him and his expectations. Which I find funny as all hell but evidence of what you're talking about.

 

[ownedsubgal]

What would be too much for you? WHen would you call the shelter or the police? Just curious?

"too much"?? not sure exactly what you mean by that. if "too much" means something that pushed me over the edge of sanity, physical or emotional endurance, many things could drive me to that point. but i wouldn't feel some urge or desire to "do" something about it, to make him pay, or to somehow free myself. i accepted that possibility as part of the deal of this whole M/s thing.

so to answer your other question, never. it would never cross my mind, for myriad reasons, but primary among those is the fact that i recognize and accept that i am a slave.

 

[Netzach]

This seems like another permutation on the what if he tells you to kill a baby thing. Rational people aren't going to do this for shits and giggles. Why, because someone has unlimited power in a rel. would they cease to have any judgement?

Does the M have a bone setting backup? Can he take responsibility for anything that happens? Will he?

As sado as I am, and though it's my prerogative to break H's nose if I feel like it, there are myriad reasons that's not going to happen intentionally. Mainly because I don't *feel like doin' it.* Power doesn't mean the instant throwing of all rationality to the dogs.

 

[ownedsubgal]

While you and I have some of the same ideas osg, this one I'm different. If Master breaks one of my bones by accident like during play, no biggie. If he breaks one of my bones on purpose..I'm not going to yell abuse. I'm not going to call the cops. I am however going to reevaluate my relationship with him. That's just not a good Master in my book.

but does a Master have to be "good?"

 

[nh23]

This seems like another permutation on the what if he tells you to kill a baby thing. Rational people aren't going to do this for shits and giggles. Why, because someone has unlimited power in a rel. would they cease to have any judgement?

Does the M have a bone setting backup? Can he take responsibility for anything that happens? Will he?

As sado as I am, and though it's my prerogative to break H's nose if I feel like it, there are myriad reasons that's not going to happen intentionally. Mainly because I don't *feel like doin' it.* Power doesn't mean the instant throwing of all rationality to the dogs.

*nods* That's how I see it. He could, but he won't.

but does a Master have to be "good?"

Hmm..If he was just beating the hell out of me all the time, for no reason. If I mouth off or something he slaps me across the face. I can live with that. If he was actually beating me..like in wife beater beating me. I couldn't live like that.

I don't respect men who beat their wives in an abusive way. I find it weak and pathetic. I wouldn't have any respect for him.

 

[Netzach]

but does a Master have to be "good?"

I think the answer to this varies somewhat. For some people the right M doesn't have to feel limited or responsible thus. For other people the right one is motivated in the direction of their care and betterment. It really depends on the rel.

He doesn't have to be good, he has to be right.

 

[Keroin]

This seems like another permutation on the what if he tells you to kill a baby thing. Rational people aren't going to do this for shits and giggles. Why, because someone has unlimited power in a rel. would they cease to have any judgement?

Does the M have a bone setting backup? Can he take responsibility for anything that happens? Will he?

As sado as I am, and though it's my prerogative to break H's nose if I feel like it, there are myriad reasons that's not going to happen intentionally. Mainly because I don't *feel like doin' it.* Power doesn't mean the instant throwing of all rationality to the dogs.

Did cat's M have a medical background?

I understand shit happens. Intentional shit is a different deal for me, though. Does that make sense?

 

[Netzach]

Did cat's M have a medical background?

I understand shit happens. Intentional shit is a different deal for me, though. Does that make sense?

Hey, some people like to drive 100mph. Find your bliss. I don't think she was goaded into it at all, but accepted the terms of her slavery with *very* open eyes and the realization that such things would be entertained.

 

[nh23]

I probably should have used a more generic example. Cat is going to come in and be like wtf?

I don't think cat's situation is abuse. She accepts it and it's ok with her. I'm in a different type of M/s dynamic. For me I have days where I'm sick or hurt, he respects that. I need that type of relationship. If he told me to do x anyway when I was sick I would. I have a comfort though knowing he has my best interest at heart too.

 

[BiBunny]

but does a Master have to be "good?"

A Master doesn't have to be. My Master (and Mistress) do. That's why I chose them.

 

[eastern sun]

While you and I have some of the same ideas osg, this one I'm different. If Master breaks one of my bones by accident like during play, no biggie. If he breaks one of my bones on purpose..I'm not going to yell abuse. I'm not going to call the cops. I am however going to reevaluate my relationship with him. That's just not a good Master in my book.

For this reason, you have to take who you are as a slave into account when you're choosing a master, and vice versa. You don't want to find out there are major differences in your understanding of your relationship after you've already given up control.

In my own experience, I was convinced as a young woman that my husband might kill me inadvertently, not in an angry outburst, but by misunderstanding the limits of my body. I trusted that he was in control of himself, but I didn't think he understood me all that well. I was largely an object that either pleased or displeased him.

That wasn't going to end the relationship, but it did lead me to do what I could, when I could, to take care of myself. In large part because I knew he didn't want me dead.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that, for my particular master, letting him break my bones is not in fact serving him because it is not what he is seeking. Other masters may be more sadistic. I have known people who have broken fingers and broken jaws to make a point. I think you want to know who you're giving yourself to pretty well to make sure you find the experience you're seeking.

 

[eastern sun]

but does a Master have to be "good?"

only to the extent the slave has to be good

or

only to the extent that any human being ought to be good


Do you think a slave has to be good, but a Master doesn't?

 

[graceanne]

I don't have a problem with that. Getting second-guessed, I-told-you-soed and monday-morning-quarterbacked is all part of the burden of leadership.

LOL

Again, I look at it differently. The kids are outside the dynamic, outside the agreement. Per force that means we discuss things. Because of this view, I don't consider it a power thing at all. Our kids are more important than how we fuck.

I don't consider a D/s or M/s relationship to be only about how we fuck.

Cat posted once about having a broken tail bone. F made her drive him for like 17 hours or something on it. I can't remember the post. Cat lives a more hard core life than most of us I think. I wouldn't call it abuse though. She chooses to live that life.

It's one of the things that really scared me about M/s though. Until I found out that all M/s relationships are not like that.

I don't consider it abuse, because she chose him and she chose that life. It's totally consentual.

But then, I don't feel real sorry for a lot of people who are being abused. For one thing, there are outs. If you don't choose to leave then you choose to stay. (I know this is an over simplification of a very complex problem, but I don't have the time or patience to unsimplify it.) Two, the majority of people in abusive situations will go right back into that or a similar situation the moment that they can. It's sad that that happens, but evidently they're getting something they need.

I will work my ass off helping people who want to be helped. I won't do squat for those who don't. And if there's children involved I'll be the first on the phone with child services.

eh, it's a slave life, no further explanation really required. sometimes our Masters/Owners may push us to extremes. but i certainly wouldn't label Catalina as someone who is abused and absolutely would not label Francisco as an abuser...they are a very loving and devoted M/s couple. but they are M/s. there's a higher likelihood of extremes popping up when you are talking about Owner/property vs. ward and june. does it have to be that way? as nh stated, of course not. some Masters would never ever go there. but they can go there, that is a major distinction between M/s and D/s.

AND this is another reason to make sure you REALLY REALLY know the person you are going into an M/s relationship with. An M/s relationship is a HUGE commitment, and shouldn't be made lightly.

A Master doesn't have to be. My Master (and Mistress) do. That's why I chose them.

Well put.

 

[intothewoods]

<snip>
I don't consider a D/s or M/s relationship to be only about how we fuck.

</snip>

I agree. Many nothing-to-do-with-fucking aspects of my relationship affect my kid. He's there. We're a family. Unless the D/s is truly bedroom only, kids will be influenced by the dynamic of the couple. Heck, kids will be influenced by the dynamic whether there's D/s involved or not. I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing but for me it's something to be aware of. It's been a bit of an adjustment and shift to balance mom-me with submissive-me.

 

[graceanne]

I agree. Many nothing-to-do-with-fucking aspects of my relationship affect my kid. He's there. We're a family. Unless the D/s is truly bedroom only, kids will be influenced by the dynamic of the couple. Heck, kids will be influenced by the dynamic whether there's D/s involved or not. I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing but for me it's something to be aware of. It's been a bit of an adjustment and shift to balance mom-me with submissive-me.

Well put. lol I just know that our dynamic shows in more ways than him demanding a blow job or putting me over his knee.

I recall both me and cat talking about 24/7 to someone with a romanticized view of it. About how a 24/7 relationship really looks a lot like a vanilla relationship to the casual observer. We get up, brush our teeth, get kids dressed, go to work/school/run errands, come home, cook dinner, do homework/help with homework, watch tv, go to bed and if we're lucky work up the energy for sex. (Or not - we have quickys down to an art.)

 

[Keroin]

Hey, some people like to drive 100mph. Find your bliss. I don't think she was goaded into it at all, but accepted the terms of her slavery with *very* open eyes and the realization that such things would be entertained.

I'm not suggesting she was goaded into it and I have no problem with people willingly accepting levels of control that I cannot. So, as I said, if she was cool with it fine.

But I just couldn't shake this story from my head and I finally realized why.

There's more to this instance to me than one person's pain - and I don't know the details so I won't rant too heavily. I drove professionally and to extremes. I have enormous respect for automobiles and I'm a highly skilled driver. I would never put myself behind the wheel of a car, on a public road, under those circumstances and if someone else told me to do so I'd refuse. It's not my safety, alone, that's an issue, it's the other drivers on the road.

I love driving, throttle sports are my faves, but I take my responsibility seriously when I'm in control of a large, potentially lethal, piece of metal.

 

[eastern sun]

There's more to this instance to me than one person's pain - and I don't know the details so I won't rant too heavily. I drove professionally and to extremes. I have enormous respect for automobiles and I'm a highly skilled driver. I would never put myself behind the wheel of a car, on a public road, under those circumstances and if someone else told me to do so I'd refuse. It's not my safety, alone, that's an issue, it's the other drivers on the road.

I love driving, throttle sports are my faves, but I take my responsibility seriously when I'm in control of a large, potentially lethal, piece of metal.

I can't speak to Catalina's experience, but I can relate to it.

I am the driver in our relationship. Many, many times over the years, I have been required to drive when I was sick or in pain. And I have taken my responsibility both to the people in my own car, and in the other cars, very, very seriously.

It's not a game. It's not about getting off on feeling pain at the expense of other people.

The only time I ever got in a car accident was when I was young and drunk. And because of the demands put on me, I can't and don't drink at all.

I've had to drive carefully, slowly. I've had to stop and throw up at the side of the road, more times than I care to remember. I've had to keep myself alert and aware during moments when my body wanted to rest.

But people, not just slaves, are capable of doing things safely even when they are in pain. Sometimes, as slaves, we are asked to do things that other people would say "no" to. But going ahead and doing those things, testing the limits of our own body and mind, often allows me to see that I am capable of much more than I thought I was. It also allows me to let go of certain limiting ideas about myself and and other people.

On the other hand, people do push themselves past the limits of what their body can handle, either at their own or at other people's bidding. People do seriously cripple themselves as a result.

Some slaves are willing to do that for the sake of their relationship. Some masters may require it.

Some athletes are willing to do that for the sake of their career. Some coaches may require it.

Some soldiers are required to do it for the sake of their country. Some countries require it.

I'm not trying to equate these experiences. But they are all on a continuum of willing sacrifice and potential danger.

It says a lot about my character that I'm willing to be a slave, but not an athlete or a soldier. But I'm hoping to put it into terms that might make sense to people who wouldn't choose this lifestyle.

 

[Keroin]

With regard to varying definitions of M/s and the property thing, you might find this thread interesting. As I said before, the basic problem here is the one that Etoille noted - everyone makes up their own definitions as they go along. In the absence of a kinky dictionary, no one is right and no one is wrong. It's fine with me if what I write about my relationships fits your conceptualization of slavery; this is just a semantic disagreement, the resolution of which makes no difference one way or the other.

Thanks for that link. I read as far as page four before my head began to scream at me for a break. (Why did "ownership" have to be in red? That really bothered me as I was trying to read.)

I liked this from you...

My response to your comments is to repeat the obvious and state that there is no such thing as actual, literal, ownership of humans in the United States. Therefore, as someone said on the other thread, though the effects of the "ownership" concept may be very tangible and real within our relationships, the concept itself is all in our heads, for every one of us - and no one person's take on the subject is any more valid than another's.

I've tried to express this somewhat here and on other threads but you captured it better than I have. I call it the Highly Constructed Version of Reality. I have my HCVR, I believe everyone does, to some degree, but I've also learned that many find the concept offensive.

I'm going to be brutally honest. Reading that link and other threads on similar topics I see a repetition of the same themes over and over. My intuition tells me there is a high level of defensiveness in the BDSM community. One side is perceived as being too extreme, the other as too fake, or they believe that is how they are perceived by each other. At some point, things get personal and an argument ensues. I've been around only a short while and I'm curious to know if this tug-of-war has always been present?

I will admit that some of the more hardcore activities I read about do shock me and trigger my "Is that healthy?" response. (My response to the driving with a broken tailbone story is a good example).

BTW, it was interesting reading Homburg pre-MIS and at the beginnings of his entry into M/s (or whatever he chooses to call it). Also his declaration that poly is "damn hard work". LOL