M/s...why or why not?

[eastern sun]

I've really enjoyed reading through this thread, and just want to insert one more paradigm -

the M/s relationship in which the s struggles against the ropes (i.e. the will of the M) and it still always ends up going the M's way - usually allowing the s the opportunity to see how right the M was in the first place

you need a very patient M for this one, but it works out the same in the end

dinner is still at 6:45 (Monday - Thursday) with take-out on Friday

btw - my husband is Jewish. it's his love of argument that allows room for my voice. he hates it when I don't engage with him during conversations, and by that I mean, well-thought out and researched debate. and he's always willing to change his mind if a better idea comes along - which allows my better ideas a real fighting chance and my worser ideas a timely burial.

 

[ataxia.girl]

I know that M hated my being pro with every fiber of his being, but realized that he was not going to make that decision. He just *is* more submissive than I am in the relationship, but if I actually name it or call it into shape he pushes back like a small child. Which I then have to calm and pet on the head and be nice to, and I can avoid the whole thing by using the carrot and not the stick in the first place.

This is how it is with me and my Daddy. i whine and complain and storm around and throw water on him and hit him with my pink jelly dildo and kick him in bed and yank on his chest hairs and even tried to bite him once but really these episodes do not last long. In the end He is just bigger than me, stronger than me and more stubborn which is saying a lot cuz i'm pretty damn stubborn. i am an angel at least as often as i am a brat and most of the time probably somewhere in between but no matter what i am he is in control when we are together. Even if i am out of control it is always within his power to set things right as quickly as he likes. Often he is amused by what he calls my "baby anger" and so it may go on longer than another man would let it. i would love our dynamic 24/7 but it isn't possible. Even if it was i don't think it could be considered M/s although Daddy does think of me as his property and tells me i am all the time i am reluctant to acknowledge it. Sometimes he makes me. His control over me would be similar to the control a parent has over a small child really which is quite a lot.

 

[nh23]

This is how it is with me and my Daddy. i whine and complain and storm around and throw water on him and hit him with my pink jelly dildo and kick him in bed and yank on his chest hairs and even tried to bite him once but really these episodes do not last long. In the end He is just bigger than me, stronger than me and more stubborn which is saying a lot cuz i'm pretty damn stubborn. i am an angel at least as often as i am a brat and most of the time probably somewhere in between but no matter what i am he is in control when we are together. Even if i am out of control it is always within his power to set things right as quickly as he likes. Often he is amused by what he calls my "baby anger" and so it may go on longer than another man would let it. i would love our dynamic 24/7 but it isn't possible. Even if it was i don't think it could be considered M/s although Daddy does think of me as his property and tells me i am all the time i am reluctant to acknowledge it. Sometimes he makes me. His control over me would be similar to the control a parent has over a small child really which is quite a lot.

I would so get my ass kicked. Or get my ass kicked out of the relationship. Your Daddy must be a very patient man.

 

[Etoile]

I am Jewish by heritage, raised Unitarian, currently atheist, and a member of Mensa since age 6. I'm totally okay with being told "because I said so" as the reason for something.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it!

 

[JMohegan]

But the above definition seems no different than what those here that identify as M/s describe as their arrangement - at least as I've understood it.

I'm not a big "label" person, as I think I've made clear enough in several posts, so really I don't have a problem with whatever anyone chooses to call their behaviour. However, for me, the bold text is part of I how I conceptualize slavery. *For me*



Well, now that I can do! I am also skilled at ordering pizza.

See! It's just not that difficult.

With regard to varying definitions of M/s and the property thing, you might find this thread interesting. As I said before, the basic problem here is the one that Etoille noted - everyone makes up their own definitions as they go along. In the absence of a kinky dictionary, no one is right and no one is wrong. It's fine with me if what I write about my relationships fits your conceptualization of slavery; this is just a semantic disagreement, the resolution of which makes no difference one way or the other.

The only relationship here that actually sounds like slavery, to me, is osg's. But that statement just reflects my personal conceptualization of what slavery actually means, which has absolutely nothing to do with labels applied by the overwhelming majority of those who embrace M/s. My summary observations of those who ID as Masters may be found in that thread I just linked, post 43.

 

[Keroin]

See! It's just not that difficult.

With regard to varying definitions of M/s and the property thing, you might find this thread interesting. As I said before, the basic problem here is the one that Etoille noted - everyone makes up their own definitions as they go along. In the absence of a kinky dictionary, no one is right and no one is wrong. It's fine with me if what I write about my relationships fits your conceptualization of slavery; this is just a semantic disagreement, the resolution of which makes no difference one way or the other.

The only relationship here that actually sounds like slavery, to me, is osg's. But that statement just reflects my personal conceptualization of what slavery actually means, which has absolutely nothing to do with labels applied by the overwhelming majority of those who embrace M/s. My summary observations of those who ID as Masters may be found in that thread I just linked, post 43.

LOL.

I had a quick peek at the link but accounting awaits, so I'll get to that later. Thanks though. You and that memory of yours! (Did Netz ever give you an answer about the tit photos?)

I should also note that I view consensual and non-consensual slavery as vastly different - as you may already know - so the slavery I was referring to in my previous post is of the consensual variety. I agree that osg's relationship, now that I know more about it, bears the closest resemblance to "real", non-consensual slavery.

I probably owe her an apology for my previous comments in that regard.

I find the semantics of BDSM annoying. And yet I suppose we need language when initiating discussions in public forum.

 

[ataxia.girl]

I would so get my ass kicked. Or get my ass kicked out of the relationship. Your Daddy must be a very patient man.

i like to say we are D/s with a lot of D and not much s. Non-con and reluctance is a turn on for both of us however. i have been very submissive in the past but i am not a very consistent type girl when it comes to service however i don't set limits. Daddy can make me do whatever he wants. He treats me like i am his property and i love feeling powerless. i'm just not that into submissive devotion at the moment and haven't been for quite awhile now. If i suddenly switched into ultra devoted sub\slave mode he would accept me and continue to use me and love me. That is why we really are more Daddy/girl than anything else i think, His acceptance of me in all my forms. The power exchange is very real but also quite different than i typically think of D/s or M/s.

 

[Netzach]

I've really enjoyed reading through this thread, and just want to insert one more paradigm -

the M/s relationship in which the s struggles against the ropes (i.e. the will of the M) and it still always ends up going the M's way - usually allowing the s the opportunity to see how right the M was in the first place

you need a very patient M for this one, but it works out the same in the end

That's pretty much us.

I just realize that the spasms are his process, and I detach and let 'em happen. Normally.

 

[nh23]

i like to say we are D/s with a lot of D and not much s. Non-con and reluctance is a turn on for both of us however. i have been very submissive in the past but i am not a very consistent type girl when it comes to service however i don't set limits. Daddy can make me do whatever he wants. He treats me like i am his property and i love feeling powerless. i'm just not that into submissive devotion at the moment and haven't been for quite awhile now. If i suddenly switched into ultra devoted sub\slave mode he would accept me and continue to use me and love me. That is why we really are more Daddy/girl than anything else i think, His acceptance of me in all my forms. The power exchange is very real but also quite different than i typically think of D/s or M/s.

*nods*

 

[ataxia.girl]

I've really enjoyed reading through this thread, and just want to insert one more paradigm -

the M/s relationship in which the s struggles against the ropes (i.e. the will of the M) and it still always ends up going the M's way - usually allowing the s the opportunity to see how right the M was in the first place

you need a very patient M for this one, but it works out the same in the end

dinner is still at 6:45 (Monday - Thursday) with take-out on Friday

Just saw this post. Except for the part where the s finally sees how right the M was it describes my Daddy and me perfectly. Everything still always goes his way.

 

[Netzach]

LOL.

I had a quick peek at the link but accounting awaits, so I'll get to that later. Thanks though. You and that memory of yours! (Did Netz ever give you an answer about the tit photos?)

I know everyone's as invested as I am in the MN senate race. I'm thinking Al's actual first day, but seeing as Norm actually conceded in public and TPaw isn't going to dick around signing things he says, I may be safe to go ahead at this point.

 

[YourCaptor]

"this is yours, do with it what you will."

What I would give to hear those words.

...

How ironic

 

[YourCaptor]

Do the "M"s here tend to see their "S"s as "lesser than"? Or do the "S"s here see themselves that way?

I actually see self acknowledged subbies as far, far more valuable then your average schmo.

Good girls are actually the most valued things I can imagine, I would give my life for one if needed.

I'm also one of those that shows it by decorating my girls.

Wow. So am I abnormal?

None of my meals happen at set times. Is there anyone else out there who just eats when they're hungry?

I hate routine with a passion. That is part of the reason why I need a hierarchy structure in my relationship. When I say its eating time, its eating time.

the M/s relationship in which the s struggles against the ropes (i.e. the will of the M) and it still always ends up going the M's way - usually allowing the s the opportunity to see how right the M was in the first place

you need a very patient M for this one, but it works out the same in the end

I think its natural for people to wander, or test the fences. However I think this is where sex is the key and is why we make such a big fuss over it it, with restraints, and whips, and all that stuff. A good, clear sex life re-establishes whos in command without it being a drag. I mean lets face it, most sex, even in a vanilla relationship is about power.

Your relationship in bed really does reflect your over all relationship.

Fuck her hard enough and she'll be good for a day or two.

 

[FurryFury]

I'm more interested in D/s currently but it's not really available to me because my husband isn't.

If he were and if we continued to grow into it more and more, I'd quite possibly be into M/s but I can't see starting out that way.

 

[BiBunny]

In my relationship, I'm asked what I think all the time. And, generally, if I have a good reason why I think or feel a certain way, they agree with me. They even *gasp* concede that I'm smarter than they are about certain things. (Writing application letters for jobs and such comes to mind.)

When I'm on my own, I eat when I get hungry. Probably not the best idea, but it works. I live alone and work from home, so eating is something that gets done whenever I get around to it.

I don't do the arguing thing. Growing up, I learned that you just don't do that, that it's rude and tacky to argue/debate/point out holes in other people's logic. You just smile and nod and think "you dumbass." And yelling is what the white trash down the street does, not anyone with half a brain in their heads. Conversely, when there was an actual problem, you didn't discuss that, either. My mother was the queen of the silent treatment.

I have quite a temper when I'm angry enough, but I keep a short leash on it because I've been known to cause quite a bit of collateral damage when I turn off the brain-to-mouth filter. I might get pissed off enough to really go off on someone once a year or so. Maybe. Sometimes, it takes even longer.

Master's pretty much the same way that I am. We internalize, which makes for a peaceful existence, but if something's wrong, it never gets fixed, either. Mistress, on the other hand, is a wee bit combative, honestly. When we first began our relationship, it took us both awhile to learn to handle the other. I thought she was being hateful when she yelled at me (and I still don't handle that well at ALL), and she thought I was being a drama queen when I didn't want to talk about things.

He compares her temper to a firecracker and mine to a powder keg. She's got a short fuse, and it doesn't take much to set her off. But once she goes off, there's a little noise, and it's all over. As for me, I have a long, slow-burning fuse, but if you ever reach the end of it, the noise is the least of your worries.

You don't want to know how we figured all this crap out. It wasn't pretty.

We don't really have those kinds of issues anymore. I try to give her more input, so she doesn't get upset, and she tries to give me enough space to communicate without feeling threatened. M/s, D/s, whatever, it's still a relationship, after all.

I guess it's better that I continue to identify my relationship as an Owner/pet situation to avoid the whole question altogether, though.

 

[00Syd]

Fuck her hard enough and she'll be good for a day or two.

I'm not really sure that it works that way.

 

[ataxia.girl]

Fuck her hard enough and she'll be good for a day or two.

This pretty much always works with me and is probably why the first night of a visit with Daddy i'm more apt to be uncooperative. Usually after that first night i am quite well behaved and compliant.

 

[Keroin]

I find D/s to be unappealing because it does not feel serious enough for me.

For me, D/s felt like roleplay. M/s just feels like living.

This has been rolling around in my cranium. The aspect of play vs seriousness is another reason I wouldn't do an M/s relationship. My outlook is that most everything outside of my basic needs is play. My reasoning is simply that life will toss you all manner of unpleasantness so why not have the most fun possible, wherever possible? With that philosophy, I take very little seriously.

I want my relationship with my PYL to be based in play, to be based in fun, in fantasy, that's a big part of the attraction for me. This is not to suggest that M/s relationships aren't fun, not at all, only that, for me, making this part of my life a serious matter would drain the pleasure out of it. *Again, for me*

I've just realized that every reason people give for wanting or having an M/s relationship are the exact same reasons I would give for not wanting it.

 

[Keroin]

My mother was the queen of the silent treatment.

Oh my Cod! I have a sister. I didn't know we had the same mother.

Mine was the head travel agent for Guilt Trips International, too.

BB, my mo used to be just like yours. It took a long time and a lot of work for me to change but I'm glad I did. Letting the fuse burn and the resultant explosion is never fun, for anyone involved. Basically, I had to unlearn all the bad skills my mother modeled for me.

SO: What's wrong?
Me: Nothing

That was the old paradigm. Now I answer honestly, it's so much better.

 

[Homburg]

But this is why I don't consider our relationship a TPE, because I maintain my power in that realm. Therefore we didn't exchange all the power, just most.

Again, I look at it differently. The kids are outside the dynamic, outside the agreement. Per force that means we discuss things. Because of this view, I don't consider it a power thing at all. Our kids are more important than how we fuck.

--

Wow. So am I abnormal?

None of my meals happen at set times. Is there anyone else out there who just eats when they're hungry?

Generally. I want a protein shake when I wake up. After that, it's variable. This often means that the kids have a different mealtime than I do. That said, if food is prepared *around* the appropriate time, I can usually eat. I'm not that picky.

--

QUOTE=graceanne;31336357]I've been known to say to K, when he insists on doing something that I don't think we should do, 'if I'm right, you know I'm gonna gloat, right?'[/QUOTE]

*snort*

--

It's a long ingrained cultural thing, beginning with Talmud. Arguing tests the strength of ideas.

btw - my husband is Jewish. it's his love of argument that allows room for my voice. he hates it when I don't engage with him during conversations, and by that I mean, well-thought out and researched debate. and he's always willing to change his mind if a better idea comes along - which allows my better ideas a real fighting chance and my worser ideas a timely burial.

I should've been born jewish.

 

[BiBunny]

Oh my Cod! I have a sister. I didn't know we had the same mother.

LOL.

Mine was the head travel agent for Guilt Trips International, too.

Oh, boy. Mine, too.

BB, my mo used to be just like yours. It took a long time and a lot of work for me to change but I'm glad I did. Letting the fuse burn and the resultant explosion is never fun, for anyone involved. Basically, I had to unlearn all the bad skills my mother modeled for me.

SO: What's wrong?
Me: Nothing

That was the old paradigm. Now I answer honestly, it's so much better.

How'd you manage? I try, but it's slow going.

Err, maybe I should start a new thread. I've done too much hijacking of threads lately as it is.

 

[Homburg]

This has been rolling around in my cranium. The aspect of play vs seriousness is another reason I wouldn't do an M/s relationship. My outlook is that most everything outside of my basic needs is play. My reasoning is simply that life will toss you all manner of unpleasantness so why not have the most fun possible, wherever possible? With that philosophy, I take very little seriously.

I want my relationship with my PYL to be based in play, to be based in fun, in fantasy, that's a big part of the attraction for me. This is not to suggest that M/s relationships aren't fun, not at all, only that, for me, making this part of my life a serious matter would drain the pleasure out of it. *Again, for me*

I've just realized that every reason people give for wanting or having an M/s relationship are the exact same reasons I would give for not wanting it.

Meh. "Serious" in my previous post referred to the level of commitment. We joke and laugh and cut up far too much for the mood to be considered "serious".

Basically, I had to unlearn all the bad skills my mother modeled for me.

SO: What's wrong?
Me: Nothing

That was the old paradigm. Now I answer honestly, it's so much better.

How did you manage this?

 

[intothewoods]

I was raised in a household that considered yelling to be an *extremely* disrespectful way to communicate. A sign that the one doing the yelling, male or female, had lost personal control.

This has nothing to do with equal opportunity. It's a cultural thing.

Yelling isn't arguing. They're separate entities.

Ha, my exact reaction to JM's post. Hang around a bunch of Jewish women or Italian women (generally speaking - obviously not everyone) and the noise level is going to be higher. The only time I've seen that bested is by Black women. I kept thinking, oh my God, who knew there were people louder than my own! And of course, not all Black women, etc, etc.

At any rate, I was not allowed to *yell* at my parents or speak disrespectfully. Really, they ran a tight ship. But we argued, debated, and had very lively conversations all the time.

I know more functional Jewish families who have grave intellectual arguments over organic dinners served by household help. And then there was my family. Who yells as baseline communication and can't argue with any validity on anything because I am the first to utter the words in three generations "huh, let me think about that idea for a minute, I haven't formed an opinion yet."

I have a lack of inside voice and I can certainly yell, but holy shit, there's a time you don't have to at some point, isn't there?

We also had the whole west coast thing. Just enough kumbaya and mellowness to balance the arguing.

Shit. We did just manage to make another thread all about Jews again, didn't we.

 

[Keroin]

How'd you manage? I try, but it's slow going.

Err, maybe I should start a new thread. I've done too much hijacking of threads lately as it is.

Meh. "Serious" in my previous post referred to the level of commitment. We joke and laugh and cut up far too much for the mood to be considered "serious".

How did you manage this?

Sorry to osg for hijack - promise I'll be quick.

To answer the question...it wasn't easy. After I left the ex, I did some serious stock taking to figure out how I'd ended up in that mess and one of the big reasons was that I wouldn't, or couldn't, speak up in the moment and I always let myself be bulldozed.

BB, you know the kind of resentment this generates?

So, the next relationship I went into, I sat down with the fellow and said, very seriously, "Look, I have a problem with conflict and here's what it is..." I then spelled out the problem for him. Then I explained, "This is all new for me but I am going to speak out when something bothers me, even a little bit. I need you to be supportive and patient."

He was.

It felt really, really awkward at first but I forced myself through it. Sometimes, I'd react the old way then come back an hour later and apologize, then re-state my concerns like an adult. Now it happens naturally.

I think a big part of it was accepting that anger can be temporary and healthy and that I deserve to speak my mind as much as anyone else. Self esteem, very important.

 

[Homburg]

Shit. We did just manage to make another thread all about Jews again, didn't we.

Well, the internet is media. You know what they say about that...