M/s...why or why not?

[Homburg]

Homburg, if this isn't too rude or inappropriate a question, may i ask why this is the case? why have you chosen to completely hide the authority dynamic that exists in your household from your children? i ask because that seems like a great deal of effort, keeping under cover both who you are and the reality of the relationship you have with your girls. this would be absolutely impossible for Daddy and i, as it is only natural that i defer to him in all things and he naturally treats me in a very authoritative and somewhat condescending manner. so it is crystal clear to his son that i am very submissive to his father and that i am not an authority figure. we also see nothing wrong with this model, as it is basically a traditional male HOH type of thing.

do you feel that such a model would somehow provide an unhealthy or negative example for your children?

I don't see it as hiding. We just avoid the trappings. The girls don't call me "master" and the various other words used in the relationship are likewise avoided. There are no yessirs etc. There is the occasional permission asked, but it is more of the polite sort of "May I get up from the table?" sort of thing, not a "Do I have permission to get up from the table?"

Little things are still present, but they're subtle. I tend to get the first plate of food, and the girls are pretty scrupulous about making sure my drink is full, etc.

If the volume is a 10 in the bedroom, it's a 5 or less around the kids.

The flipside is that this is what just about everyone does around kids. You don't usually sit there and soulkiss your partner in front of the kids, or fuck, or whatever. There is decorum, and I consider much of that to fall under decorum.

Am I not dominant? Not in charge? Not clearly HoH? Of course not. I'm bloody well in charge and it is obvious. The kids know it as well. It is the difference, however, between being sexually dominant and socioculturally dominant (or simply in a leadership position if social dominance as a term does not sit well). One is acceptable in private situations, while the other is more acceptable in normal society.

So I don't think that we completely hide the dynamic. We just keep it severely muted down, much as regular folks do with their romantic actions in a regular relationship when kids are around.

It is a fine line though. While I speak of excluding it, that is basically impossible. I am dominant, viv and MIS are submissive. The power dynamic will be obvious to any observer, and we can't obfuscate it completely no matter how hard we try, unless we're willing to look completely unnatural. So it is more of a conscious decision to exclude all that is possible to exclude, while still staying who we are.

In other words, I'm not going to show my 7 year old son my flogger collection, but I'm not going to act the simp around him either. Papa is in charge, as far as he's concerned, and that's that.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Homburg, thanks for explaining, that makes much more sense. no sane person exposes their erotic life to their kids, of course. but as the M/s dynamic is something evident in every aspect of life it kinda confused me a bit to read that you tried to keep it away from the kids. it's comforting to know that it's not quite that severe.

 

[intothewoods]

Fwiw, not every traditional male HOH home consists of the male exerting authority in every area. In some cultures, the women control the children and the cooking, for example.

That a particular model is traditional doesn't make it right or wrong for me personally.

What you choose to do in front of your kids isn't really an M/s or not issue, so I suppose it's sort of off topic for this thread.

 

[nh23]

no need to reword anything, your feelings are more than valid. that's just my own personal hang-up really. the idea of there being some standardized acceptable and appropriate model of behavior for Masters/Owners really bothers me, but i realize it's comforting for most. part of my issue also has to do with self-defense...i'm not quite as strong as Grace in that area, it bothers me when others think of my Master as "bad," especially for doing no more than acting within his rights as an Owner.

I'm not sure if this is common or not. I've posted about how I was afraid to get into a M/s relationship. When Master and I got together he laid down the rules. I'm not allowed to say no. I'm not allowed to have limits, and expect for previous limits to be pushed frequently. (and they are).

He also gave me the responsibilities that are his as Master. One of those is that he will listen to my feelings and opinions. That doesn't mean he'll do what I want, but he will take them into consideration.

Another is that he will never intentionally harm me in a way that will incapacitate me. That means no broken bones, throwing me down the steps, or kicks to the kidneys. He takes those responsibilities as serious as I do mine as his slave.

 

[Netzach]

I wasn't subjected to overt sexual submission from my mother but I was subjected to very strong, ongoing, observation of her social submissiveness. It was obvious around men she dated, it was obvious around her mother, and it was just plain obvious.

I can't tell people how to live, but I can tell people how it feels to see overt and constant evidence that your mother, in the case of a single mom, your only trusted line of defense in the world is not going to stand up for you in relation to what amounts to some fucking new guy. Or her mother. Or her father.

I would say that power vacuums are bad and keeping things subtle to the point where your kids can figure it out on their own if they're smart are probably smart moves. But how you decide to introduce a new authority figure is, needless to say, important. Do this the wrong way and you will wind up with rebellion and rejection. I see too many people who think that they will be raising little broods of M/f traditionalistas when they run things like this, and what you *can* get is quite the opposite if you're heavy handed.

 

[Homburg]

Fwiw, not every traditional male HOH home consists of the male exerting authority in every area. In some cultures, the women control the children and the cooking, for example.

This is more or less how we are. I recognise that she is better with the kids than I am. MIS has way more education chops than I do. I maintain veto authority, but leave the majority of the decision making to the womens. MIS, of course, defers to viv on the kids as viv's the momma. I'm the same way with food. I can't be fussed with making menus and buying food and the like. Not interested, and she's better at it than I am.

In the long run, it is less about power and authority and more about making use of a person's talents. Again, this is Leadership 101.

--

I see too many people who think that they will be raising little broods of M/f traditionalistas when they run things like this, and what you *can* get is quite the opposite if you're heavy handed.

Ha! Eldest Daughter is, at nine years old, as dominant as holy hell. She has decided that I am at best a worthy opponent to be bested. She, much like the oldest girl cat, recognises that I am a larger animal, but that is the sole edge she will grant me. I expect as she gets older that the clashes of will are going to get worse

Fortunately, she still likes me. Mostly. When the teen years hit it will probably move into covert war.

I honestly don't care which orientation, if any, that my kids find themselves in. Doesn't phase me.

 

[intothewoods]

I wasn't subjected to overt sexual submission from my mother but I was subjected to very strong, ongoing, observation of her social submissiveness. It was obvious around men she dated, it was obvious around her mother, and it was just plain obvious.

I can't tell people how to live, but I can tell people how it feels to see overt and constant evidence that your mother, in the case of a single mom, your only trusted line of defense in the world is not going to stand up for you in relation to what amounts to some fucking new guy. Or her mother. Or her father.

I would say that power vacuums are bad and keeping things subtle to the point where your kids can figure it out on their own if they're smart are probably smart moves. But how you decide to introduce a new authority figure is, needless to say, important. Do this the wrong way and you will wind up with rebellion and rejection. I see too many people who think that they will be raising little broods of M/f traditionalistas when they run things like this, and what you *can* get is quite the opposite if you're heavy handed.

Some days I marvel at the influence his peers have, and some days I marvel at what behavior/vocabulary of mine is thrown back in my face. They watch everything.

Introducing a new partner is a whole other can of worms. I am conscious of how we speak to each other around kidlet, as I think we should be at this point. It's not stilted. We just sort of pay attention. Actually, come to think of it, because of what I mentioned above, I pay attention to what I say a lot more these days regardless of who I'm speaking with. Kinda hard to say, be polite, if you're not. Funny how that works.

This is more or less how we are. I recognise that she is better with the kids than I am. MIS has way more education chops than I do. I maintain veto authority, but leave the majority of the decision making to the womens. MIS, of course, defers to viv on the kids as viv's the momma. I'm the same way with food. I can't be fussed with making menus and buying food and the like. Not interested, and she's better at it than I am.

In the long run, it is less about power and authority and more about making use of a person's talents. Again, this is Leadership 101.

Yeah, I suppose it's common across the board, traditional culture or no. I just wanted to make the point that "traditional" does not always look the same.

 

[intothewoods]

<snip>

In other words, I'm not going to show my 7 year old son my flogger collection, but I'm not going to act the simp around him either. Papa is in charge, as far as he's concerned, and that's that.

The former is easy, the latter is where I sometimes ... hesitate. I have no problem serving the food and attending to everyone in that way. But that's across the board. Conversations where we are discussing an issue and he will make the determination? I would be more inclined to discuss those in private. This is difficult to articulate since it's more of a gut check thing. I would just not feel comfortable asking him (in front of kidlet), may I do x? I can't fully explain why, though in part it is certainly that Mister Man is relatively (in comparison to me, obviously) new to the family.

 

[nh23]

The former is easy, the latter is where I sometimes ... hesitate. I have no problem serving the food and attending to everyone in that way. But that's across the board. Conversations where we are discussing an issue and he will make the determination? I would be more inclined to discuss those in private. This is difficult to articulate since it's more of a gut check thing. I would just not feel comfortable asking him (in front of kidlet), may I do x? I can't fully explain why, though in part it is certainly that Mister Man is relatively (in comparison to me, obviously) new to the family.

I ask Master if I can do things in front of the kids. My daughter who is eight has said to me before. He's not your boss..lol. I just tell her that Mommy likes to ask K things before she does them. That not all women are like that and it's ok.

I don't want to raise her to think she has to be a submissive. I'm like this because I was born like this. If she wants a husband she can boss I'd be perfectly happy with that too.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Fwiw, not every traditional male HOH home consists of the male exerting authority in every area. In some cultures, the women control the children and the cooking, for example.

That a particular model is traditional doesn't make it right or wrong for me personally.

What you choose to do in front of your kids isn't really an M/s or not issue, so I suppose it's sort of off topic for this thread.

well for some folks the reality of children could be the reason why M/s is a "not." i've certainly heard that argument before.

 

[BiBunny]

I'm so glad I don't want kids, so I don't have to worry about that particular problem!

 

[ownedsubgal]

I wasn't subjected to overt sexual submission from my mother but I was subjected to very strong, ongoing, observation of her social submissiveness. It was obvious around men she dated, it was obvious around her mother, and it was just plain obvious.

I can't tell people how to live, but I can tell people how it feels to see overt and constant evidence that your mother, in the case of a single mom, your only trusted line of defense in the world is not going to stand up for you in relation to what amounts to some fucking new guy. Or her mother. Or her father.

I would say that power vacuums are bad and keeping things subtle to the point where your kids can figure it out on their own if they're smart are probably smart moves. But how you decide to introduce a new authority figure is, needless to say, important. Do this the wrong way and you will wind up with rebellion and rejection. I see too many people who think that they will be raising little broods of M/f traditionalistas when they run things like this, and what you *can* get is quite the opposite if you're heavy handed.

whenever you mention your mother Netz, and how negatively her submissiveness impacted your life, my heart breaks for you...and then i feel so grateful that i do not have children! because unfortunately i feel i would be a similar type of mother esp. if i were single. children really need a strong and dependable parental figure, someone who can provide guidance and discipline and who the child can also trust and always feel safe and protected with. they should never feel as if they come last. i know that my personality would not allow me to provide those things for a child.

thankfully the child in this household is Daddy's, not my own. and also thankfully, he (Daddy) is the Dominant. both of those factors imo make the power dynamic come across much more smoothly and naturally to his son. and despite being exposed to M/s his entire life, it would be safe to say that he definitely does not get the message that he should follow in Dad's footsteps...he is far from dominant, and definitely not submissive either. he is wholly an individual, and his Dad is cool with that.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Fwiw, not every traditional male HOH home consists of the male exerting authority in every area. In some cultures, the women control the children and the cooking, for example.

of course, that is the most common traditional model actually, that the women/mothers have direct authority over children and basic household duties. of course, the Man of the house always has that veto power.

the power dynamic in our household is definitely not all that subtle, as i am in no way shape or form an authority figure. my Master does not treat me like a 100% adult, therefore his son doesn't really view me that way. it definitely took some time for him to really respect me.

 

[ownedsubgal]

There is basically only one line in our conceptual "contract"... he will never leave me. This again is where we are very Daddy/girl with more incestuous overtones versus M/s or D/s. Most Daddies do not disown their daughters over bad behavior. Some do but i know mine will not and i need that security because i know eventually i will behave badly, sometimes very badly.

this is something we kinda have in common. Daddy will always be Daddy, he will always be my Father. even if the nightmare of him releasing me as his slave ever came to pass, i am still and always will be his daughter. in many ways a Father is like a Master, the two relationships complement one another well. you cannot run away from Master and you cannot run away from Daddy. you are still his, always. that is a comfort.

 

[Homburg]

The former is easy, the latter is where I sometimes ... hesitate. I have no problem serving the food and attending to everyone in that way. But that's across the board. Conversations where we are discussing an issue and he will make the determination? I would be more inclined to discuss those in private. This is difficult to articulate since it's more of a gut check thing. I would just not feel comfortable asking him (in front of kidlet), may I do x? I can't fully explain why, though in part it is certainly that Mister Man is relatively (in comparison to me, obviously) new to the family.

If there is some sort of discussion where I am the determinant and the power dynamic is going to be a factor, we have that discussion in private.

--

well for some folks the reality of children could be the reason why M/s is a "not." i've certainly heard that argument before.

It certainly complicates things.

 

[eastern sun]

The former is easy, the latter is where I sometimes ... hesitate. I have no problem serving the food and attending to everyone in that way. But that's across the board. Conversations where we are discussing an issue and he will make the determination? I would be more inclined to discuss those in private. This is difficult to articulate since it's more of a gut check thing. I would just not feel comfortable asking him (in front of kidlet), may I do x? I can't fully explain why, though in part it is certainly that Mister Man is relatively (in comparison to me, obviously) new to the family.

The large questions, that chart the course of our lives together, have always taken place in private.

But with the day-to-day issues, we've evolved as the kids have grown. I still ask "may I have an almond croissant" when we're standing at the coffee counter , but in front of the kids the "may I" questions sound more like "what do you want me to do about . . ." or even, "I'm going to . . . ., ok?" To their ears, I'm asking his opinion, or getting the go-ahead. He also frequently asks me for my opinion, in the course of making decisions, which indicates to them his respect for my experience and insight. And he has always supported my authority with them.

Our kids think of their father as a strict disciplinarian, with somewhat arbitrary and inflexible and sometimes resented rules. (But lots of children view their fathers that way. It's not out of the norm.) They see me feel as powerless to change his mind as they are. On the other hand, it gives me the opportunity to discuss the reasons behind the decisions, and how to deal with things they "don't want" or "don't like" in life, and that's never a bad thing to learn.

Sometimes I feel like I have to walk a tightrope wire between his will and theirs. And sometimes I misstep in one direction or the other. But I doubt I'm the only mother who has ever felt like that, slave or not.

 

[Netzach]

whenever you mention your mother Netz, and how negatively her submissiveness impacted your life, my heart breaks for you...and then i feel so grateful that i do not have children! because unfortunately i feel i would be a similar type of mother esp. if i were single. children really need a strong and dependable parental figure, someone who can provide guidance and discipline and who the child can also trust and always feel safe and protected with. they should never feel as if they come last. i know that my personality would not allow me to provide those things for a child.

This is a large part of why I don't either. My reactionary hashing out of things has made it so that I steamroll over anything weaker than I am that's frustrating me, and that's a lot of things to steamroll over. I'm pretty damn certain that when the fuse is short I'd be an abusive parent, and I'm not gonna find out, it's not a social experiment I would run on anyone else.

You've got one thing going for you that she didn't, though. An authority figure who appears not to be a neurotic or the passive enabler of one. That'd be her parents. So no heartbreak needed purely on my behalf. She did the best she could, but damn will people take advantage of you if you're like that. As you know.

As for kids, well, if your parents are doing it, it simply can't be that badass. My mother's drug stories made me straightedge. She did make some really smart decisions in my upbringing and honesty was one. I knew one other kid who was pretty on to the D/s dynamic in his house and it was more a topic of eye rolling than modeling behavior. At 17 everything is up for eye rolling.

 

[Netzach]

Which begs a kind of interesting side question:

do people intend to "come out" when their kids are of age to be watching the average R rated film in which SM might appear etc? At some point is the latent going to be more transparent, when you know they're not going to tell everyone at school and make a big giant mess for you? Is the variant of SM going to be on the table in your talks about sex when the variants of sexualities are on the table?

Fundamentally, at the same time that we're not indoctrinating or freaking our kids out as a community are we going to normalize this kind of interaction for future peeps?

I feel like there's an up and a downside to that, but that's just me.

 

[MisterSir]

do people intend to "come out" when their kids are of age to be watching the average R rated film in which SM might appear etc?

My guess is that a person's answer to that and the question "Do you really want to know what your parents got up to in the bedroom?" will be the same. In my case, no and God no; it's natural to feel squicky about that.

 

[eastern sun]

Which begs a kind of interesting side question:

do people intend to "come out" when their kids are of age to be watching the average R rated film in which SM might appear etc? At some point is the latent going to be more transparent, when you know they're not going to tell everyone at school and make a big giant mess for you? Is the variant of SM going to be on the table in your talks about sex when the variants of sexualities are on the table?

Fundamentally, at the same time that we're not indoctrinating or freaking our kids out as a community are we going to normalize this kind of interaction for future peeps?

I feel like there's an up and a downside to that, but that's just me.

I didn't talk to my parents about their sexuality. Granted I picked things up as I grew older, but it just became part of my picture of them as creative and flawed individuals. I'm not going to bring it up to my kids, unless they bring it up to me. And then circumstances will dictate what to say, I imagine.

edited to add - Having recently dealt with the deaths of two parents, I have thought a lot about what I might leave behind for my kids to sort through. It's made me want to tell the story of my life in scrapbooks, photo albums and anonymous forums. I don't imagine we have that much control in the end, though. Our lives speak for themselves.

 

[Netzach]

My guess is that a person's answer to that and the question "Do you really want to know what your parents got up to in the bedroom?" will be the same. In my case, no and God no; it's natural to feel squicky about that.

After my grandfather's funeral the generations were around and shooting the shit, and my mom told me about my late stepfather's deal. It certainly made some creepy late night sounds and findings much more benign than I thought they were at the time. Apparently he liked to do various things and then would make her punish him with his belt, and the begging and guilt part was what I would overhear and could not for the life of me decipher. (Makes me want a nice Catholic boy of my own, I digress)

I also found out she was doing some pretty kinky bedroom bottom stuff with the most asshole of her BF's, which made me think, well at least there was some fun to be had for her there, it was a dynamic that had some pleasure for her in it.

I don't need to know the sordid every detail, but I'm not traumatized for life by these conversations as an adult. I don't remember how these things came up, but they were organic, it wasn't let's sit down and talk about your mom's sex life.

 

[Homburg]

Which begs a kind of interesting side question:

do people intend to "come out" when their kids are of age to be watching the average R rated film in which SM might appear etc? At some point is the latent going to be more transparent, when you know they're not going to tell everyone at school and make a big giant mess for you? Is the variant of SM going to be on the table in your talks about sex when the variants of sexualities are on the table?

Fundamentally, at the same time that we're not indoctrinating or freaking our kids out as a community are we going to normalize this kind of interaction for future peeps?

I feel like there's an up and a downside to that, but that's just me.

Eh, currently the plan is to be pansexual, and explain that different folks do things different ways. The topic that will likely be discussed in more detail is poly.

 

[intothewoods]

Which begs a kind of interesting side question:

do people intend to "come out" when their kids are of age to be watching the average R rated film in which SM might appear etc? At some point is the latent going to be more transparent, when you know they're not going to tell everyone at school and make a big giant mess for you? Is the variant of SM going to be on the table in your talks about sex when the variants of sexualities are on the table?

Fundamentally, at the same time that we're not indoctrinating or freaking our kids out as a community are we going to normalize this kind of interaction for future peeps?

I feel like there's an up and a downside to that, but that's just me.

That's how I feel. I don't have any plans to share, but neither do I think it's going to do any harm to a grown person. I've read a few postings on Fetlife in which the parents went on and on about their bruises to their kids living at home, to which I at first thought ugh, but once they explained they were adult children, I thought, eh, move out of the house if you don't like it. I don't feel like I'm hiding myself by not sharing that information, but if we were having a conversation as adults where it was relevant, maybe I would share some details.

 

[intothewoods]

The large questions, that chart the course of our lives together, have always taken place in private.

But with the day-to-day issues, we've evolved as the kids have grown. I still ask "may I have an almond croissant" when we're standing at the coffee counter , but in front of the kids the "may I" questions sound more like "what do you want me to do about . . ." or even, "I'm going to . . . ., ok?" To their ears, I'm asking his opinion, or getting the go-ahead. He also frequently asks me for my opinion, in the course of making decisions, which indicates to them his respect for my experience and insight. And he has always supported my authority with them.

Our kids think of their father as a strict disciplinarian, with somewhat arbitrary and inflexible and sometimes resented rules. (But lots of children view their fathers that way. It's not out of the norm.) They see me feel as powerless to change his mind as they are. On the other hand, it gives me the opportunity to discuss the reasons behind the decisions, and how to deal with things they "don't want" or "don't like" in life, and that's never a bad thing to learn.

Sometimes I feel like I have to walk a tightrope wire between his will and theirs. And sometimes I misstep in one direction or the other. But I doubt I'm the only mother who has ever felt like that, slave or not.

But what about the poor barrista!!!

The way you phrase things seems pretty natural to me. I also agree with you that the dynamic you describe between kids and their parents where one is more of a disciplinarian is not limited to M/s relationships.

 

[intothewoods]

Eh, currently the plan is to be pansexual, and explain that different folks do things different ways. The topic that will likely be discussed in more detail is poly.

You ID as pansexual?