Emotional discipline

[sweet_slave]

Firstly, this question arose from a discussion i had with a submissive friend who is struggling to identify reasons behind her feelings of resentment at punishment. (ie it is not *me* and i am not seeking relationship advice). She remarked that she thought she needed emotional training and it got me thinking ...

For many of us, regardless of orientation, our way of life revolves around training: it is an expectation or need.
i believe discipline (as opposed to punishment) is training that corrects, molds or perfects and i think what my friend is really looking for is emotional correction; emotional discipline.

There is a fine line between therapist and Master/Mistress/Dominant/Top/ sometimes, so:

• where should that line be drawn (if at all)?
• what emotional discipline techniques have people had experience with?
• does anyone feel they have been made "a better person" as a result of emotional discipline?
• does anyone feel they have been done harm as a result of the same?

~sweet

 

[Kajira Callista]

Firstly, this question arose from a discussion i had with a submissive friend who is struggling to identify reasons behind her feelings of resentment at punishment. (ie it is not *me* and i am not seeking relationship advice). She remarked that she thought she needed emotional training and it got me thinking ...

For many of us, regardless of orientation, our way of life revolves around training: it is an expectation or need.
i believe discipline (as opposed to punishment) is training that corrects, molds or perfects and i think what my friend is really looking for is emotional correction; emotional discipline.

There is a fine line between therapist and Master/Mistress/Dominant/Top/ sometimes, so:

• where should that line be drawn (if at all)?
• what emotional discipline techniques have people had experience with?
• does anyone feel they have been made "a better person" as a result of emotional discipline?
• does anyone feel they have been done harm as a result of the same?

~sweet

Most submissive who enjoy pain are disciplined emotionally because if they were physically it would encourage bad behavior or i should say behaivior that Master doesnt like or want. Is that what your friend means? Is that her reason for feeling she needs that?

 

[MastrJ]

Most submissive who enjoy pain are disciplined emotionally because if they were physically it would encourage bad behavior or i should say behaivior that Master doesnt like or want.

I've found that I can't use physical discipline with my sub. I've only had to discipline her once so far and it was hard. I ended up making her stand in a corner with her hands cuffed behind her back and then watch me play with myself. She hated not being able to touch me.

I would definitely be interested in hearing about other methods that I might use for non-physical discipline.

As far as her own emotional discipline, she'll have to speak to that. As the Dom, it's not something I can comment on.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Re: Re: Emotional discipline

Most submissive who enjoy pain are disciplined emotionally because if they were physically it would encourage bad behavior or i should say behaivior that Master doesnt like or want. Is that what your friend means? Is that her reason for feeling she needs that?

Can't agree in all instances. I have a love of pain which exceeds all reason, but if I am punished in a physical way which includes pain, it is not anything I enjoy or would invite....I can't even physically tolerate the slightest touch under those conditions and dissolve into uncontrollable sobbing which is not usually present with pleasure pain. In fact it is not just my thought it is far different, but physiacally evident in a lack of the usual wetness which flows down my legs with good pain. It is a matter of understanding you have done wrong and you are being punished, not rewarded.

Catalina

 

[sweet_slave]

Thanks to all who have answered, i don't think i have made myself clear as to the crux of the issue - i will try to do so now

Firstly, i see discipline and punishment as two completely different things. i see discipline as training that defines, molds or corrects not as a pejorative experience.
i see punishment as the inevitable result of disobedience deliberate or otherwise. With the former given careful and studied attention the latter is rarely, if ever, needed (in an ideal world)

i agree with the comments made about suitable punishments for masochists but that is not so much what i mean with the questions.

Over the years i have been trained in many areas: greetings, public behaviors, how to give a good blow job.
my training has including training (read discipline) emotionally - how to deal with some of my emotional reactions, as in my friend's instance, resentment at punishment.

i think emotional discipline comes through learning why the emotion is happening in the first place. This is where Dom(insert your own label here) and therapist merge and the lines all but disappear.

You have to open honest lines of communication, dig for the real cause and deal with the answers. It is quite possible that emotion caused the bad behavior in the first place and punishment no matter how well intentioned may cause further harm.

i was curious as to others experience with a Dominant "training" them to deal with emotions, react a certain way (or not react), how this was done and whether it worked or not.

Confused? You want to be inside my head!

~sweet

 

[catalina_francisco]

i think emotional discipline comes through learning why the emotion is happening in the first place. This is where Dom(insert your own label here) and therapist merge and the lines all but disappear.

You have to open honest lines of communication, dig for the real cause and deal with the answers. It is quite possible that emotion caused the bad behavior in the first place and punishment no matter how well intentioned may cause further harm.

I think in certain circumstances it can be valid, but I also can see a recipe for huge damage. There is a perception among some that the Dominant holds all the answers and is counsellor, friend, trainer, everything. The bottom line is unless they have adequate training, and they can relate to the issues, they may do more harm than good in their efforts to impose an emotional response to a situation they see as fitting, but which in reality may not be that simple. People have a set of emotional responses peculiar to them, and motivated by a number of variables that need uinderstanding before beginning to play with.

Dominants are human, are not always therapists, doctors, lawyers etc., all areas which require specific knowledge and training, so to step into that role and assume their perception and views are correct and to be adhered to is risky. For simple issues, especially those motivated by a need for maturity and/or accepting the sub role, it may be OK, but I think it still can seem simple on the surface and trigger unexpected buried issues they are not prepared or equipped to deal with.

Catalina

 

[ghosst_K&H]

My Domme's practice emotional disipline with me all the time, i used to have a hair trigger temper, and under their guidance i am learning to curb my temper, therefore keep myself out of trouble. also they practice what they call behavior modification, which in essence is also emotional disipline, where i have to control my urges to grope, fondle, or basically do what any male would do in a vanillia relationship. my life is now lived by their rules, and my behavior has to be controlled.

as for punishment, i also have to live with the fact that certain behaviors are no longer acceptable, and will be punished for said actions.

 

[FungiUg]

I can imagine a scenario where a Dominant could seriously screw up a submissive psychologically through playing with their emotions. But then again, I can imagine a situation where a Dominant could seriously screw up a submissive physically through playing with their body. So as in all things, care is required.

Emotions are such a tangled area -- I think if I were including some form of emotional discipline (not punishment, yes I agree with the distinction) then it would be discussed ahead of time with the submissive to get the submissive's buy in. And monitored carefully.

Of course, we unthinkingly play on emotions all the time -- seduction intimidation, etc. So there is a certain amount that happens naturally.

 

[WriterDom]

I would definitely be interested in hearing about other methods that I might use for non-physical discipline.

I think it has to be an individual thing. Get to know what she doesn't like. Some would hate exercise, some would love it. Some people even enjoy corner time, or at least don't mind it.

Within reason. If she has a bug phobia you wouldn't want to pour fifty crickets on her naked body.

 

[~*sunkyssed_kym*~]

If she has a bug phobia you wouldn't want to pour fifty crickets on her naked body.

Jiminy Cricket!!!

-kym- Happy Sir Dave's not into bugs

 

[FungiUg]

I think punishing someone via their phobias would be a very very dangerous practice. Certainly not something I would consider.

 

[JooJoo]

i agree, punishing with phobias is horrible >< tho unfortunately it is affective, for instance i have a white coat phobia (fear or doctors) so i HATE any shots, medicines, doctors, nurses, dentists, etc (tho i do go to the dentists and stuff, i'm not 1 of those ppl that have frayed hair, bad teeth, smell kinda funky and go "on there own vibe")

tho phbias can be a good thing too, for instance, a while back i had a dom, he was prettty smart, he continually agreed with me whenever i'd complain about a doctors apointment i was gonna hafta go to or supm, and he had me tell him when the appointment was, then we'd both get online and he'd comfort me and stuff, this was rly a smart plan now that i think about it, cause even if he didn't rly "care" for me, he gained a LOT of my trust and respect by doing that

 

[MastrJ]

I have too much real world training in such things to even think about using a phobia for punishment. Work with her as a friend and lover to help her get over one, yes. To force her into a situation as punishment, never. That's just opening a whole kettle of worms that should be left alone.

Edit to add:

She doesn't seem to have any fear of bugs/spiders, so I don't have any problem making it feel like a spider is crawling along her back/arms when we're watching a scary movie. That's just good, old-fashioned fun.

 

[sweet_slave]

Again reiterating the question was about discipline (as previously defined) not punishment.

So .... to simplify:

What if i, as a submissive, asked you, as a Dominant, to push my limits so i could overcome my fear of ... spiders/white coats/insert your own phobia here?

ghosst has the concept here - behaviour modification is really an interchangeable term.


Disclaimer: i know i am harping on about definitions and it sounds like *just* semantics but i don't think there is any such thing. Words on the net are the medium through which all must be considered - which is, in this case "feelings". Consistency of feeling (and therefore understanding) comes through consistency of language and there is a need for a consistent relationship between the two.

i am reminded of what Confucius says on this point (*grins* language that is, not discipline v punishment):

If language is not used rightly then what is said is not what is meant. If what is said is not what is meant then that which ought to be done is left undone; if it remains undone morals and art will be corrupted; if morals are corrupted, justice will go awry, and if justice goes awry, the people will stand about in helpless confusion.

And we wouldn't want that now, would we?

~sweet

Fondly called "one of those fucking thinking submissives" by several Dominant friends

 

[Netzach]

I would ask what you've been doing to push your own limits, if anything on this issue...

If nothing, I'm not budging until you are.

If you've been working on it, I can certainly make you stick to a game plan.

There's not a damn thing anyone can change about someone who doesn't have a kernel of momentum towards something new. Even addicts have to be ready to look for another way of doing things.

 

[FungiUg]

Agreed. The impetus would have to come from the submissive (in this case). A dominant could help out with maintaining and ensuring the discipline though.

I think this could also work in other areas. Basically, when I taught a woman to cum from voice command, it needed her initial buy-in... but the discipline to make it work I could provide.

So I don't see an issue with a dominant providing a disciplined routine or framework to deal with emotional issues. In fact, I suspect it's a requirement for the job -- particularly dealing with issues such as abuse, self-image, respect, trust.

I think if I were asked to help "push limits" to overcome (say) a fear of spiders, it would be possible. We'd need some frank, open discussion to talk about the best approach, and some careful evaluation criteria to be able to monitor whether it's working or not.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Perhaps there is more which could be added to this discussion?

Catalina

 

[Phoenix Stone]

Basically, when I taught a woman to cum from voice command, it needed her initial buy-in... but the discipline to make it work I could provide.

Oh Yeah Baby! How the heck do you do that? (If it's not OT.)

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

I'm not sure one could condition orgasm... speaking as a clinical psychology super-freak, the number of variables in that is just insanely astounding.

 

[Kajira Callista]

I'm not sure one could condition orgasm...

Why?

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Well, I can see how "speech" can be an associated conditioner. That's really no different from most fetishes, though, is it? Fabric of a particular kind, blondes, etc... the conjunction and blurring of subject response to orgasm and the associated thing.

But, orgasms are products of physical stimulation (case-in-point, the causing of climax in a truly clinical sense) as well as psychological factors that have direct physiological effects. Much like how sadness causes certain chemical overloads that enduce crying (which is chemically different than, say, onion-induced tears).

To remove the physical stimulation and put the climax on a solely associated (previously neutral, we'll say) stimulus would take not only a ton of trials... but to prevent extinction, one would have to produce orgasms exclusively in that manner. What sort of reinforcement schedule would be needed? What sort of other conditions are neutralized (sensations, extraneous words, environment, mood of the participant, etc.)?

I dunno. I've never read a clinical report where this was done (though the idea has been studied before, mostly in the terms of "orgasms causes"). For someone to say that they have is sort of like someone saying they've found a way to condition someone off of food, leading to death. While strictly possible, in the most technical sense of the term, I'm not sure its plausible.

It may work, as I cannot say that it is impossible... I just don't see how its be done. I am curious, though.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Well, I can see how "speech" can be an associated conditioner. That's really no different from most fetishes, though, is it? Fabric of a particular kind, blondes, etc... the conjunction and blurring of subject response to orgasm and the associated thing.

But, orgasms are products of physical stimulation (case-in-point, the causing of climax in a truly clinical sense) as well as psychological factors that have direct physiological effects. Much like how sadness causes certain chemical overloads that enduce crying (which is chemically different than, say, onion-induced tears).

To remove the physical stimulation and put the climax on a solely associated (previously neutral, we'll say) stimulus would take not only a ton of trials... but to prevent extinction, one would have to produce orgasms exclusively in that manner. What sort of reinforcement schedule would be needed? What sort of other conditions are neutralized (sensations, extraneous words, environment, mood of the participant, etc.)?

I dunno. I've never read a clinical report where this was done (though the idea has been studied before, mostly in the terms of "orgasms causes"). For someone to say that they have is sort of like someone saying they've found a way to condition someone off of food, leading to death. While strictly possible, in the most technical sense of the term, I'm not sure its plausible.

It may work, as I cannot say that it is impossible... I just don't see how its be done. I am curious, though.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Well, I can see how "speech" can be an associated conditioner. That's really no different from most fetishes, though, is it? Fabric of a particular kind, blondes, etc... the conjunction and blurring of subject response to orgasm and the associated thing.

But, orgasms are products of physical stimulation (case-in-point, the causing of climax in a truly clinical sense) as well as psychological factors that have direct physiological effects. Much like how sadness causes certain chemical overloads that enduce crying (which is chemically different than, say, onion-induced tears).

To remove the physical stimulation and put the climax on a solely associated (previously neutral, we'll say) stimulus would take not only a ton of trials... but to prevent extinction, one would have to produce orgasms exclusively in that manner. What sort of reinforcement schedule would be needed? What sort of other conditions are neutralized (sensations, extraneous words, environment, mood of the participant, etc.)?

I dunno. I've never read a clinical report where this was done (though the idea has been studied before, mostly in the terms of "orgasms causes"). For someone to say that they have is sort of like someone saying they've found a way to condition someone off of food, leading to death. While strictly possible, in the most technical sense of the term, I'm not sure its plausible.

It may work, as I cannot say that it is impossible... I just don't see how its be done. I am curious, though.

there are alot of different types of physical stimulation... some totally unnoticable.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

there are alot of different types of physical stimulation... some totally unnoticable.

That's not entirely true, though, is it? I mean, by definition, if it /is/ physical, then it /is/ noticeable, no? Hard to notice, surely possible, but unnoticeable?

I can't think of anything, strictly speaking, that is physical that exists without possibility of observation.

 

[Kajira Callista]

That's not entirely true, though, is it? I mean, by definition, if it /is/ physical, then it /is/ noticeable, no? Hard to notice, surely possible, but unnoticeable?

I can't think of anything, strictly speaking, that is physical that exists without possibility of observation.

thats why you cant figure out how it works